Confession and Matt 9:8

[JTBT]

There is a hurricane outside, while I’m cooped up in a rather well built house - one that should adequately stand up to the storm. Would I leave that house and venture out through the hurricane just to be with my brothers and sisters, who live in a house that is much less solid?

I think that depends on how much you loved them, would you venture out of your warm coop to help them to your home.
Peter Kreeft (an RC BTW) has said evangelicals will not become Catholic until we see Catholics as more evangelical than we are. and I would tend to agree with him.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think that depends on how much you loved them, would you venture out of your warm coop to help them to your home.
Peter Kreeft (an RC BTW) has said evangelicals will not become Catholic until we see Catholics as more evangelical than we are. and I would tend to agree with him.

Well, of course I would, and I agree with Peter Kreeft 110% on this point. But, regarding my analogy, those in other houses represents people in other churches (the house being a symbol for the church).

My house is welcome to all, but I couldn’t leave my house (abandon the Faith of the Catholic Church) in order to bring others back.

I don’t know, maybe my analogy is a poor one.

 

[JTBT]

Well, of course I would, and I agree with Peter Kreeft 110% on this point. But, regarding my analogy, those in other houses represents people in other churches (the house being a symbol for the church).

My house is welcome to all, but I couldn’t leave my house (abandon the Faith of the Catholic Church) in order to bring others back.

I don’t know, maybe my analogy is a poor one.

I understand your analogy and it is not bad…but it makes Kreeft’s point of evangelicals not seeing a evangelical Catholic Church.

my point being that evangelicals have to go outside their comfort zone to be evangelical.

 

[NotWorthy]

I understand your analogy and it is not bad…but it makes Kreeft’s point of evangelicals not seeing a evangelical Catholic Church.

my point being that evangelicals have to go outside their comfort zone to be evangelical.

Go outside their comfort zone? Yes. That’s why I admire others with the zeal and the love of the Lord to do street ministry and door to door. And it’s funny you should mention that. I see this type of spirit spreading throughout my diocese in Southeast Texas (Beaumont). It’s a little younger seed in my parish, the seed was later planted, but I think my parish is on the edge of becoming just what Kreeft is talking about.

 

[JTBT]

Go outside their comfort zone? Yes. That’s why I admire others with the zeal and the love of the Lord to do street ministry and door to door. And it’s funny you should mention that. I see this type of spirit spreading throughout my diocese in Southeast Texas (Beaumont). It’s a little younger seed in my parish, the seed was later planted, but I think my parish is on the edge of becoming just what Kreeft is talking about.

wow, it would be interesting to have two Roman Catholics come to my door, in the Bible Belt of Georgia

 

[Subrosa]

wow, it would be interesting to have two Roman Catholics come to my door, in the Bible Belt of Georgia

Hi JT -

The answer is The Legion of Mary, of which I am a member. We do door to door evangelization, among other things.

So, are you going to go to a RC church this Sunday, or what? There is really nothing to be afraid of. The whole thing is praying to God. And don’t worry about being noticed. If you go to a larger parish, you’ll just get ignored!

Sub

 

[JTBT]

Hi JT -

The answer is The Legion of Mary, of which I am a member. We do door to door evangelization, among other things.

So, are you going to go to a RC church this Sunday, or what? There is really nothing to be afraid of. The whole thing is praying to God. And don’t worry about being noticed. If you go to a larger parish, you’ll just get ignored!

Sub

well no, I’m more or less just looking for information, I’m not really looking to convert. plus I’m not really convinced about some other doctirnes of the RC church

 

[Subrosa]

well no, I’m more or less just looking for information, I’m not really looking to convert. plus I’m not really convinced about some other doctirnes of the RC church

Hi JT -

Believe it or not, we’re not looking specifically to convert anyone. As Catholics, we believe that any person baptized has entered into the “Body of Christ.” So you, whatever denomination, or non-denom for that matter, have a stake in the Sacrifice of Salvation and are therefore imperfectly in communion with us and share in Christ’s salvific sacrifice. We do not proslytize.

This is not saying that if someone is interested we don’t engage them. Of course we will speak to a person to help that person with any questions.

The doctrines in and of themselves were developed centuries ago. There is nothing new in Catholicism. It is reworked and re-explained in order to understand it in present terms. Pretty much all of it was established within the first three centuries of christendom, and even that stuff was taken from the earliest beliefs.

For instance, the dogma of the Trinity, which you and I both accept, was firmly established in the year 325 at the Council of Nicaea.

Subrosa

 

[JTBT]

Hi JT -

…imperfectly in communion with us and share in Christ’s salvific sacrifice. We do not proslytize.

Subrosa

Not sure what you mean by “imperfectly in communion” that really sounds a little insulting. and i don’t think the Roman Catholics recognize everyones Baptism ex LDS

BTW: I started a new thread about Luther’s 95 if you would care to comment.

 

[NotWorthy]

Not sure what you mean by “imperfectly in communion” that really sounds a little insulting. and i don’t think the Roman Catholics recognize everyones Baptism ex LDS

BTW: I started a new thread about Luther’s 95 if you would care to comment.

The Catholic Church recognizes all Baptism’s that follow the correct form and matter:

It must be a baptism of water (sprinkling, pouring, or immersion), using the Trinitarian formula:
“I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28. A unitarian baptized person would be re-baptized (or baptized correctly) if they wished to enter the Catholic Church.

Other than that, “imperfectly in communion” simply means that you reject some of the teachings of the Catholic Church (the Church that Christ founded). It may sound insulting to you, but I don’t know of a better way to put it.

 

[JTBT]

Other than that, “imperfectly in communion” simply means that you reject some of the teachings of the Catholic Church (the Church that Christ founded). It may sound insulting to you, but I don’t know of a better way to put it.

so would you consider the Orthodox Catholics “imperfectly in communion” b/c they do not accept the authority of the Pope?

 

[NotWorthy]

so would you consider the Orthodox Catholics “imperfectly in communion” b/c they do not accept the authority of the Pope?

If you’re asking me, I’d say yes. They enjoy a much fuller communion, though. They have valid Sacraments. They have Apostolic Succession. And they believe everything else that we do (maybe there’s an “iota” of a difference - bad joke).

I’ll see if I can find out if there’s a different description for our “Orthodox brothers”

On another note, I have hopes that in my lifetime, I’ll see a re-union between our Church and the Orthodox. I hope to see that between us and various Protestant churches, but sadly, I lack the confidence to see it in our lifetime. The desire, yes, the confidence, no. But alas, all things are possible with God, eh?

 

[JTBT]

Hi JT -
We do not proslytize.

This is not saying that if someone is interested we don’t engage them. Of course we will speak to a person to help that person with any questions.

well I am interested, aren’t I, other wise I wouldn’t be at a site call Catholic Answers.

Pretty much all of it was established within the first three centuries of christendom,.

what about the authority of the Pope? ( I know this is completely off topic, so if there is a thread you could direct me to, I will post it there.) or you could just give me the short answer here, I know about the Bishop of Rome history, but he was considered the 1st among equals was he not?

For instance, the dogma of the Trinity, which you and I both accept, was firmly established in the year 325 at the Council of Nicaea.

Amen, I actually have been using The Catholic Encyclopedia (new advent) web site for sometime now.
I was in an email debate with a Mormon friend about 3 years ago and looking for the origin of the dogma of the Trinity, well a quick search took me to the Council of Nicaea in 325, but the Trinity was espoused by many of the early church fathers.

 

[JTBT]

If you’re asking me, I’d say yes. They enjoy a much fuller communion, though. They have valid Sacraments. They have Apostolic Succession. And they believe everything else that we do (maybe there’s an “iota” of a difference - bad joke).

just an “iota”! i think the only difference is the Pope???Right?

I’ll see if I can find out if there’s a different description for our “Orthodox brothers”

On another note, I have hopes that in my lifetime, I’ll see a re-union between our Church and the Orthodox. I wonder what that would look likeI hope to see that between us and various Protestant churches, but sadly, I lack the confidence to see it in our lifetime.

well it seems the Lutherens, and the Anglicans are practically Catholic already, the church would just have to recognize their orders, as for the rest of us well there is more than an iota I’ll put it that way

The desire, yes, the confidence, no. But alas, all things are possible with God, eh?

:yup: Amen

 

[NotWorthy]

just an “iota”! i think the only difference is the Pope???Right?

Actually, another sticking point, albeit a minor one in my view, is the Catholic belief that the Spirit proceeds from the Father **and **the Son. Our Greek brothers insist that the Spirit proceeds (only) from the Father. I believe this is called the “Filoque”. My weak attempt at humor - the “iota” reference - actually deals with a different conflict of the Church - the hypostatic union, I believe.

well it seems the Lutherens, and the Anglicans are practically Catholic already, the church would just have to recognize their orders, as for the rest of us well there is more than an iota I’ll put it that way

:yup: Amen

Just because their liturgy may look Catholic, doesn’t make them Catholic. You don’t see many Lutherans going to confession, do you? (Of course, the pious Catholic would mourn that you don’t see enough Catholics going to confession either!!!) Also, their take on the Real Presence in the Eucharist is similar but different than ours.

I’m not sure about our Anglican Brothers. Their Episcopal cohorts here in the states are having much difficulty accepting the homosexual bishop. It’s brought quite a few of their priests over to the Catholic priesthood (my parish priest was an Episcopal priest. He’s married, with children, no less! Great man!!!).

 

[Subrosa]

well I am interested, aren’t I, other wise I wouldn’t be at a site call Catholic Answers.
what about the authority of the Pope? ( I know this is completely off topic, so if there is a thread you could direct me to, I will post it there.) or you could just give me the short answer here, I know about the Bishop of Rome history, but he was considered the 1st among equals was he not?

Hi JT -

I suggest a read of this document that was published last October…The Ravenna Document.

I spells out what you have been asking about. The issue of exactly what and how are being discussed.

The short of it is this…The Pope at the time of the schism (1054 ad) was a pretty strong minded fellow. He demanded obedience from the eastern churches. They told him to take a hike. But, the reason that they got into a tiff is that the Bishop of Constantinople was trying to take over the position of the pope.

Arrogance on both sides, JT, arrogance on both sides. They both excommunicated each other.

The Orthodox hold that the bishops have an equal status in thier relative positions, while, of course, Rome holds otherwise.

This will be interesting to watch and see how it turns out. The present Pope proposed a formula to satisfy both sides sometime ago, but I have been unable to find it. I’ll keep looking.

Sub

 

[JTBT]

I spells out what you have been asking about. The issue of exactly what and how are being discussed.

I will take a look at it

Arrogance on both sides, JT, arrogance on both sides. They both excommunicated each other.

personally I think this is what caused the Reformation as well

This will be interesting to watch and see how it turns out. The present Pope proposed a formula to satisfy both sides sometime ago, but I have been unable to find it. I’ll keep looking.

Sub

This will be interesting to watch, who knows maybe the two Churches will come together,
as for us Baptist…well I don’t think we will be accepting the authority of Rome anytime soon, it would be interesting to find the current Popes proposal to the Eastern Church, perhaps something like it could be proposed to the major protestant groups. I’ll see if I can’t turn something up on the net, please let me know if you find it and I will do the same.
God Bless,
JT

 

[Subrosa]

Hi JT -

I got something…

The formula, which is known as the “Ratzinger Formula” was published in a book by Ratzinger entitled, “Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundimental Theology.”

One quote that keeps coming up when I google it is*…“that what was possible during a whole millennium can Christianly not be impossible today”. “On the doctrine of the primacy, Rome must not require more from the East than what was formulated and lived out during the first millennium”*

I’m going to order the book at my library and have a read. I’ll let you know what I find.

Sub

 

[JTBT]

Hi JT -

I got something…

The formula, which is known as the “Ratzinger Formula” was published in a book by Ratzinger entitled, “Principles of Catholic Theology: Building Stones for a Fundimental Theology.”

One quote that keeps coming up when I google it is*…“that what was possible during a whole millennium can Christianly not be impossible today”. “On the doctrine of the primacy, Rome must not require more from the East than what was formulated and lived out during the first millennium”*

I’m going to order the book at my library and have a read. I’ll let you know what I find.

Sub

I may see if I can get a copy of it as well. but please let me know what you find.