Confession and Matt 9:8

[NotWorthy]

I find it interesting you paraphrased it that way, because you just said “Go therefore and baptize them, TEACHING them all that I have commanded.” Nowhere in this sentence do i see forgive people of their transgressions against God.

Remember, “ALL Scripture is profitable…”. not just that which agrees with what you said. Don’t forget John ch. 20.

Right we have authority
Do you know what that authority is called? the Holy spirit! I have it, all believers have it and love having it because of the wonderful works God will use with it.

So, YOU have the authority to retain other’s sins?!?

Can you agree with me that all believers = The Church? and can you agree with us all being priests in this church?

The Church is:
A) All believers
B) The Church Hierchy.
It’s both a AND b.

We are all priests of one sort, but the priesthood are priests of another sort. Think of Israel, it was a nation of priests, and yet there was a Levitical priesthood as well. This pre-figured the New Covenant Church, the Catholic Church.

Well clearly if its so evident then you wont have ANY trouble DIRECTLY quoting the bible something saying go out and forgive transgressions against God.
Why do you exalt Peter for did he not deny Christ 3 times!? how is he greater than I???

Peter was a sinful man, weak in Faith… and yet,
A) Jesus prayed for Peter to strengthen the Apostles when he turned back to Christ.
B) Peter was the one told to “Feed My sheep… Tend My sheep… Tend my Flock”.
C) Peter was the one that was renamed “Rock” and upon Him Jesus built His Church.

It seems that Jesus exalted Peter. But if you wish to disagree…

do you not know of Matt 23:8-12 “But you, do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. BUT HE WHO IS GREATEST AMONG YOU SHALL BE YOUR SERVANT. and whoever exalts himself will be hubled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
speaks for itself

That’s great. Start a new thread instead of throwing out these “red herrings”.

 

[ibetrippin07]

Really? If we are all priests alike, then who are the ‘presbyters’ that James says should be brought to the sick to anoint them? Why not just any believer if we all have all such priestly powers? Why would Simon even seek to buy the power Peter had except that it was extraordinary - why not just buy it from any believer if all were powerful alike?

Moral is, Jesus did NOT give all powers to all his disciples. And it doesn’t take a mind reader or a heart reader to know that a man who never once says ‘I’m sorry’ for his sins isn’t repentant, and isn’t even seeking forgiveness let alone deserving of it!

My point is we do not have priestly powers to forgive sins. do you not know if your faith was strong enough to move a mountain? sounds like quite the endorsed power we have the ability to do there.

Why are there head figures for every religion? Here Peter is preaching the name of God in a righteous awesome way and this guy sees him thinkin man i wish I could be like him, maybe i can buy it. Well guess what you cant!

UT HE WHO IS GREATEST AMONG YOU SHALL BE YOUR SERVANT. and whoever exalts himself will be hubled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." what else is that supposed to mean?

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes I belive God has given authority to men, i.e the holy spirit so that men may perform great works to bring glory to his name.
Not forgive sins

Then re-read John chapter 20.

Really does not sound like authority to me after the parable you will read “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Then you are not listening to what I said. Show me where I’m wrong.

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matt 6:14-15

Don’t you see that this is different than Jesus’ words to John?

Jesus doesn’t say in John, "those sins you retain will cause your heavenly Father to throw you into the dungeon until you’ve paid the last cent."

One lesson on Forgiveness is to the Flock.
One lesson on Forgiveness is to the Shepherds.

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.”

Note these, they are important to this discussion

Yes, they are.

The Flock should forgive their brothers who have sinned against them as many times as they can.

The Shepherds should forgive us as many times as we repent and go to them in Confession.

 

[ibetrippin07]

No they’re not - note Peter talks about situations where someone sins AGAINST HIM personally and directly.

When Jesus gives the Apostles the authority to forgive and retain He simply says ‘whosever sins you shall forgive … whosever sins you shall retain’. No mention of these having to have sinned personally against the forgiver. Different scenario. Here He is talking about offering forgiveness IN GENERAL, as only God can. A human as a mere human can’t forgive sins that have only been committed against another human, but since God permits it some (priests) CAN forgive ALL sin on His behalf.

And certainly the idea of my retaining someone’s sins who has sinned directly against me is total anathema and unChristian. Christ would never permit or command such.

If you are right then why is there not a scripture of Jesus saying to someone directly go and forgive sins against God? why does he have to make you think up ways to twist scripture?

 

[NotWorthy]

If you are right then why is there not a scripture of Jesus saying to someone directly go and forgive sins against God? why does he have to make you think up ways to twist scripture?

Where is the twisting?

Do you agree that the Apostles were given the authority to forgive or retain other peoples sins? If not, then who is doing the twisting?

 

[ibetrippin07]

Then re-read John chapter 20.

Then you are not listening to what I said. Show me where I’m wrong.

Don’t you see that this is different than Jesus’ words to John?

Jesus doesn’t say in John, "those sins you retain will cause your heavenly Father to throw you into the dungeon until you’ve paid the last cent."

One lesson on Forgiveness is to the Flock.
One lesson on Forgiveness is to the Shepherds.

Yes, they are.

The Flock should forgive their brothers who have sinned against them as many times as they can.

The Shepherds should forgive us as many times as we repent and go to them in Confession.

There are no “Shepherds” why did Christ go out of the way to call himself the good shepherd and no one else???

I think the thing we need to do here is get back to the basics of forgiveness and here it is.
In old Testament times, you could do this and that but your going to sin, it just happens. bloodshed was then required to forgive the sins. The high priest would offer an atonement for the people. the people were forgiven because of the blood offering the Hebrews delivered out of faith!
Christ came and lived perfectly, making him a perfect once and for all never again sacrifice for all mankind who was willing to accept him as Lord and Savior over all. Because Christ died on the cross only he could forgive sins, only his blood was sufficient to forgive sins. did Peter die on the cross? I dont think so. one died on an upside down cross, but he did not live the perfect life.
We are not Chirst nor are we anywhere near Christ can you agree with that? can you also agree that our God is a never changing God? if so then you shouldnt find it hard to see that the blood of Christ was the only sufficient to forgive sins and that he only holds that power. Other wise you go against the system, Christ wouldnt have had to die and the crucifixion was pointless

 

[ibetrippin07]

Where is the twisting?

Do you agree that the Apostles were given the authority to forgive or retain other peoples sins? If not, then who is doing the twisting?

Yes i do, but I say against them because its at least that is consistent with scripture and actually makes sense, yet you pick a way to interpret it that is not consistent with scripture. (Still lacking direct quoted evidence) This is consistent with scripture because you see Jesus calling transgressions against each other sins! only what we do to each other can we forgive of each other. remember when Jesus said something to the idea that the apostles should dust their feet off leaving a city that would not repent for it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in those days? Why? They dont need to be told this if they can just make that judgment them self. if they have these “priestly powers” you speak of, then they should be able to judge everyone and everything because they for some reason can forgive sins too.
The bible does not hide ideas, they are very evident and any idea is numerously backed by scripture.

 

[NotWorthy]

There are no “Shepherds” why did Christ go out of the way to call himself the good shepherd and no one else???

What did Christ tell Peter? Tend… Feed… This is the role of shepherds. Christ is the Good Shepherd, of course. But until His 2nd coming, He assigned the Church to shepherd His Flock.

This was all prophecied by Jeremiah, trippin’. In chapter 23 God tells Jeremiah, "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock from all the lands to which I have driven them and bring them back to their meadow; there they shall increase and multiply. I will appoint shepherds for them who will shepherd them so that they need no longer fear and tremble; and none shall be missing, says the LORD."
Jesus will appoint shepherds to tend… to feed… to forgive our sins.

I think the thing we need to do here is get back to the basics of forgiveness and here it is.
In old Testament times, you could do this and that but your going to sin, it just happens. bloodshed was then required to forgive the sins. The high priest would offer an atonement for the people. the people were forgiven because of the blood offering the Hebrews delivered out of faith!

You’ve forgotten one little tidbit, trippin’. In Leviticus 5, the Israelites are instructed to… “Confess to the Priest!!!” This pre-figured the Sacrament of Penance!!!

Christ came and lived perfectly, making him a perfect once and for all never again sacrifice for all mankind who was willing to accept him as Lord and Savior over all. Because Christ died on the cross only he could forgive sins, only his blood was sufficient to forgive sins. did Peter die on the cross?

Only God has the power to forgive sins. But He gave man the Authority to Forgive sins in His Name.

I dont think so. one died on an upside down cross, but he did not live the perfect life.
We are not Chirst nor are we anywhere near Christ can you agree with that? can you also agree that our God is a never changing God? if so then you shouldnt find it hard to see that the blood of Christ was the only sufficient to forgive sins and that he only holds that power. Other wise you go against the system, Christ wouldnt have had to die and the crucifixion was pointless

You’re spitting in the wind, Trippin’. You deny the very words of Christ when you say that men have had no authority to forgive sins.

Go and meditate on Jesus’ words in John 20:20-23. Read over it several times and then tell me that Jesus did not give the Apostles the authority to forgive other peoples sins (or to retain them).

 

[LilyM]

If you are right then why is there not a scripture of Jesus saying to someone directly go and forgive sins against God? why does he have to make you think up ways to twist scripture?

Umm … could that maybe be because *not all *are or were given the authority to forgive sins? Doesn’t mean that none of us (or them) were.

And if I ask you why there IS a scripture of Jesus telling the Apostles explicitly, and them alone, that they DO have the power to not just forgive but also retain sins … any man’s sins whatsoever … what would your answer be? That he said it, then winked at them and said ‘but don’t you dare let me catch you ACTUALLY presuming to forgive or retain people’s sins now, even though I just said you could’

Clearly He gave them this power meaning for them to use it. Equally clearly He gave it to them because it was necessary - He didn’t teach anything that wasn’t important or significant, agreed?

By the way, what’s this with the quotes about humility? Simon Magus and Peter both recognising Peter’s unique and special charisms, granted to him by God, doesn’t mean Peter lacked any in humility.

John, an Apostle himself, writing of this special gift of forgiving and retaining sins (let alone bindig and loosing heaven!) that was given to him as an Apostle along with the others, isn’t lacking in humility by mentioning them either.

These are gift from God, no more and no less. Given to some and not to all, as Paul points out we each receive different gifts from the Spirit and each have different functions in the Body of Christ. This is one that is reserved to priests alone.

 

[NotWorthy]

My brothers and sisters, I am tired and going to bed. Trippin’, post what you wish, and I’ll be up early to respond. Of course, only if LilyM leaves any bones for me to pick on!

Good night and God Bless!!!

 

[ibetrippin07]

well of course, as I said before, all scripture is consistent with each other or else its not scripture, did you not read the Hebrews verse? this high priestly hood was not given to the church but to Jesus Christ

thats actually not to offend anyone here but blasphemy somewhat to assume Peter is sufficient to forgive sins, where is the humbleness in being able to forgive sins? Where is Peters blood given as atonement? My point is blood has to be given and that blood forgives the sin. Jesus blood forgave the sin. No one elses blood was shed to forgive sins, its not sufficient enough. You trying to tell me Jesus Christ went through all that suffering so that just anyone could forgive sins? I don’t think so
Also Why would Jesus entrust anyone who denied him 3 times to forgive sins?

Please before you post again, pull 10 scriptures that demonstrate this obvious viewpoint im missing saying Jesus gave authority to them to forgive sins.

And again Jesus Christ gave them authority to forgive sins like he has since you see in the begging of it being mentioned to anyone in the new testament! against each other! the verse does not indicate otherwise.
My friend this is the problem with tautology and relative thinking, you pick one scripture where as i have a mix of many scriptures that all coordinate with each other to make the point. each one is sufficient but yours are not. God did not author an entire book that we might pick and choose parts of it to make points, it has to all agree. ALL OF IT.

 

[NotWorthy]

well of course, as I said before, all scripture is consistent with each other or else its not scripture, did you not read the Hebrews verse? this high priestly hood was not given to the church but to Jesus Christ

thats actually not to offend anyone here but blasphemy somewhat to assume Peter is sufficient to forgive sins, where is the humbleness in being able to forgive sins? Where is Peters blood given as atonement? My point is blood has to be given and that blood forgives the sin. Jesus blood forgave the sin. No one elses blood was shed to forgive sins, its not sufficient enough. You trying to tell me Jesus Christ went through all that suffering so that just anyone could forgive sins? I don’t think so
Also Why would Jesus entrust anyone who denied him 3 times to forgive sins?

Please before you post again, pull 10 scriptures that demonstrate this obvious viewpoint im missing saying Jesus gave authority to them to forgive sins.

And again Jesus Christ gave them authority to forgive sins like he has since you see in the begging of it being mentioned to anyone in the new testament! against each other! the verse does not indicate otherwise.
My friend this is the problem with tautology and relative thinking, you pick one scripture where as i have a mix of many scriptures that all coordinate with each other to make the point. each one is sufficient but yours are not. God did not author an entire book that we might pick and choose parts of it to make points, it has to all agree. ALL OF IT.

That’s a lovely glass house you have there, my brother!!!

Good night once again!

 

[ibetrippin07]

Only God can forgive sins… We dont see otherwise, again direct scripture is needed for any argument

Maybe this makes more sense to you
We are told not to take vengeance for it is Gods alone
We are not to be jealous because that is only something God can do (about other Gods)
You will just have to accept that someone who denied Christ 3 times is not that much more special than you or I. Especially if you believe in works like general Catholicism does
The disciples were told to dust their feet off in a bad city, not to do anything else because God would take vengeance on it for them.
God alone likes to be prayed to. It is a breaking of the commandment to think that someone else can forgive our sins. God is Jealous and would never stand for someone else acting like him all high and mighty because thats what people who forgive sins, are high and mighty yet we are told to be humble people? that does not match up in basic theology, let alone a lack of scriptural evidence!
You can think about that for the night I will be here tomorrow
Peace!

 

[ibetrippin07]

That’s a lovely glass house you have there, my brother!!!

Good night once again!

yea well its Plexiglas
Remember all truth comes from God only, and his word, use his word to defend your point directly, not indirectly from your own relative thoughts

 

[LilyM]

yea well its Plexiglas
Remember all truth comes from God only, and his word, use his word to defend your point directly, not indirectly from your own relative thoughts

sigh God’s word (which comprises BOTH Christ Himself and His teachings ORALLY passed on by the Apostles and their followers as well as written scripture) more than clearly says that God, through Jesus, gave authority to forgive sins to the Apostles. As He is quite entitled to do.

Jesus many times in the Gospels gave His authority to His Apostles - to do cures, cast out demons, and finally to bind and loose heaven no less. Forgiving sins is minor by comparison. And if believing Our Lord’s words when He says these things is blasphemy then call me a blasphemer. I certainly prefer that to you calling Him a liar.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with Peter in and of himself being sufficient to forgive sins. Peter with Christ’s authority behind him is sufficient for anything, if you can wrap your mind around the concept. As is any of the other Apostles - the authority to forgive sins was given to all the twelve. As was the ability to pass on this authority, as they chose to do, to their successors upon whom they laid hands.

‘In the name of Jesus of Nazareth get up and walk’ Peter said, and a miracle happened. So the priest says to me ‘I absolve you of your sins IN THE NAME of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit’. Not in his own name or by his own sufficiency, but in the name of God who is all-sufficient and all-powerful and whose promises (about forgiveness as about everything else) are sure. And the miracle of God’s forgiveness happens.

‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me … just as the Father sent me (ie with authority) so I send you’ is exactly what He said. And He gave this authority to forgive sins to MEN, plural, not JUST one man, as the evangelist recognised.

I’ll leave it at that before I get really uncharitable.

 

[NotWorthy]

Trippin’.

**You admit that Jesus is the Good Shepherd.

**In Jeremiah, God says that He will assign shepherds to lead Israel after He gathers them (into the New Covenant Church).
In chapter 23 God tells Jeremiah, "I myself will gather the remnant of my flock from all the lands to which I have driven them and bring them back to their meadow; there they shall increase and multiply. I will appoint shepherds for them who will shepherd them so that they need no longer fear and tremble; and none shall be missing, says the LORD." Notice that “shepherds” is plural.

Jesus, demonstrates just how this is done in Matthew and in John 21.
*** …He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”… He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”… (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep.”***
Note, tending the flock is exactly what a shepherd would do. This would be consistent with Jesus being the Good Shepherd and appointing shepherds to tend His flock.

You’ve got to admit that Jesus gives authority to Peter and the Apostles.
In Matthew, Jesus tells first Peter, and then the twelve.
*** I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."… Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven***.

Jesus passes all His authority to the Apostles. This is again demonstrated in Matthew and John. “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Here, Jesus demonstrates that He has All Power on earth and He transfers that authority to the Apostles. Notice that Jesus doesn’t make this a temporary thing, for He says that He will be with His Church (in this context) throughout the age. And notice that Jesus teaches them to “observe” all that He has commanded. “Observing” laws and commandments connotes being obedient, eh?

John makes the same declaration, but this time it’s in the context specifically of Forgiving our Sins. "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." (There’s that transfer of authority that we’ve been talking about)* And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.***” And then He tells them that they can retain other’s sins. Wow!!! That’s authority. Jesus forgives our sins, of course. But he allows others to absolve our sins In His Name. “In His Name” means, with His Authority.

So, does Scripture demonstrate this authority of the Apostles? In Acts we see this authority clearly demonstrated. Peter shows it in the 1st chapter when he declares that Judas’ office (notice, there is an office which stays even after the man holding the office perishes. hmmmmmmm… ). Peter again demonstrates authority in his sermon on the Pentecost. He certainly demonstrates this authority in chapter 10 (or is it 9?) when he admits Gentiles into the Covenant. And the Council of Jerusalem is clearly a sign of this authority.

So, you ask for proof that this authority includes forgiveness of sins? Let me ask you. When Jesus was healing people and curing the sick, what did this prefigure? Do you admit that this was a sign to show that He was actually here to forgive our sins? Well, in Matthew and Luke we see Jesus transferring this authority to cure people to the Apostles. And in Acts, the Apostles show that this authority was with them even after His Death and Ascension.

One last note, simply meant to display your inconsistency.
You’ve made the claim that Jesus forgives everything from the Cross. And yet you’ve held Peter’s denial of Jesus prior to His dying on the Cross against him more than once already. Where does it say that Jesus forgives everyone’s sins except those that occur while Satan is trying to sift someone like wheat?

 

[Subrosa]

In honesty do Catholics believe in a “personal” relationship with Christ? And if so why does this include you and your local priest and God and not just you and God?

Hi there ibetrippin07 and welcome to the forums -

You need do a study of Catholic sacramental/mystogogic theology (what the heck is THAT?)

In relation to Christ it is an understanding of how the Church “works”.

When we understand Christ we must understand that He has a dual nature, both physical and spiritual. Christ is 100% man and 100% divine.

We believe, as Catholics (also the Orthodox for that matter) that the Church has these same characteristics, physical and spiritual, for Christ established it to carry on His ministries which He began here as a man, including forgiveness of sin (which He did alot of)

So, when we go to confess to a priest we pray to God for forgiveness. The priest, as a proper minister of Christ, stands in persona christi, or in the person of Christ. The priest is the physical man behaving as the eyes, ears, hands, etc. of Christ, Christ is the spirit. It is as though Christ takes over the priest’s body and is doing the forgiving.

This theology is ancient and can be found in any of the Apostolically established churches, some of which I have provided links to previously.

The nature of this relationship is very personal, of course. When we are within the ministry, we are standing before Christ Himself and having a very deep and one-on-one spiritual relationship with Him.

As far as how personal, it doesn’t get any more personal than the Eucharist. Christ tells us in John 6:53-56…

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

When a Catholic receives the Eucharist at Mass, Christ tells us that there is an indwelling among the person and Himself…Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

Now thats PERSONAL!

Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

Its kinda sad no one will debate this with me, its such an important topic too

Truly, man, you gotta start another thread with this topic.

Sub

 

[JTBT]

The Holy Spirit inspired the Sacred author to right “and they praised God for giving this authority to men”.

the crowd is speaking when this is said, not Jesus, this verse does not say that the crowd is right or that the crowd is wrong, Matthew is just giving us the fact that this is what the crowd said. You have to read a meaning into this verse for it to say what you are saying it says. However this verse Mark 2, and Luke 5 clearly state that it is Jesus that has the authority to forgive sins on earth.

Jesus said, “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you retain, they are retained.” That sounds like authority.

can’t I then confess my sins to any Christian? this verse is not limited to a small group, nor to one person, none of the people present are given more aurhority than the other.

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

it says confess you sins to one another, and pray for one another…
it does not say confess your sins to a Priest only, because he is the only one invested with the authority to forgive you.

 

[NotWorthy]

the crowd is speaking when this is said, not Jesus, this verse does not say that the crowd is right or that the crowd is wrong, Matthew is just giving us the fact that this is what the crowd said. You have to read a meaning into this verse for it to say what you are saying it says. However this verse Mark 2, and Luke 5 clearly state that it is Jesus that has the authority to forgive sins on earth.

At that moment in time, yes. But Jesus clearly passes that authority on in John and in various other places.

The crowd could have been unknowingly prophetic. Notice, Matthew doesn’t correct the crowd’s opinion as we normally see when they are wrong.

can’t I then confess my sins to any Christian? this verse is not limited to a small group, nor to one person, none of the people present are given more aurhority than the other.

Of course you can. It’s therapeutic, but it’s not Sacramental. Do you think my brothers have the authority to not forgive my sins, as the Apostles did?

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

it says confess you sins to one another, and pray for one another…
it does not say confess your sins to a Priest only, because he is the only one invested with the authority to forgive you.

See my point above. No “normal believer” has the authority to hold my sins in remittance.