Confession and Matt 9:8

[JTBT]

At that moment in time, yes. But Jesus clearly passes that authority on in John and in various other places.

I would like to see the various other places.
now if a man today claimed to be God we would say he is blaspheming there is only one God. In John, Jesus makes the claim to be God by forgiving the mans sins, the Pharisees recognize this, because only God can forgive sins, Jesus does not correct them and say no men also have authority to forgive sins, he proves that he is God by healing the man thus proving that his sins had been forgiven and that he is not blaspheming.
so the Pharisees were wrong about Jesus blaspheming, but nowhere does it say that they were wrong about God being the only one who can forgive sins.

The crowd could have been unknowingly prophetic. Notice, Matthew doesn’t correct the crowd’s opinion as we normally see when they are wrong.

The crowd could have been doesn’t prove anything the crowd could have been wrong.
can you give me an example of Matthew normally correcting the crowd’s opinion?

Of course you can. It’s therapeutic, but it’s not Sacramental. Do you think my brothers have the authority to not forgive my sins, as the Apostles did?

I don’t think anyone, but God, can forgive sins.

See my point above. No “normal believer” has the authority to hold my sins in remittance.

actually no I don’t see your point, it says to confess to each other so you can be healed, it does not say confess to a Priest.

 

[NotWorthy]

I would like to see the various other places.
now if a man today claimed to be God we would say he is blaspheming there is only one God. In John, Jesus makes the claim to be God by forgiving the mans sins, the Pharisees recognize this, because only God can forgive sins, Jesus does not correct them and say no men also have authority to forgive sins, he proves that he is God by healing the man thus proving that his sins had been forgiven and that he is not blaspheming.
so the Pharisees were wrong about Jesus blaspheming, but nowhere does it say that they were wrong about God being the only one who can forgive sins.

Because it IS God who forgives our sins. But he gives that authority to the Apostles.

He says, “If YOU forgive someone’s sins, they are forgiven”. Then he says, “If YOU retain someone’s sins, they are retained”. Notice Jesus breathes on them and says “Receive the Holy Spirit”. Jesus never does anything like this anywhere else in Scripture. This is a BIG THING!!! Then He gives an awesome responsibility to the Apostles - To Forgive others in His Name.

The crowd could have been doesn’t prove anything the crowd could have been wrong.
can you give me an example of Matthew normally correcting the crowd’s opinion?

Can you give me an example of the crowds having a false impression of Jesus in Matthew?

I don’t think anyone, but God, can forgive sins.

Read Leviticus, chapter 5. God sets forth a way to have our sins forgiven. The man brings a sacrifice to the priest, confesses his sins, and they are forgiven.

Are you saying the man’s sins weren’t forgiven? Or are you saying that God set up a means in which the Old Covenant Jew could have His sins forgiven by working through men? Doesn’t the OT point us to the NT? Isn’t it but a shadow of the good things to come?

actually no I don’t see your point, it says to confess to each other so you can be healed, it does not say confess to a Priest.

So you believe these words. But you ignore the words of Jesus in John 20?

Can you give me your take on what’s happening in John 20:20-23?

 

[Subrosa]

James 5:16 Thereforen confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

I’m curious, JT, when is the last time you asked a person in your congregation to forgive your sins?

Also, did you take me up on my invitation to a RC church? Are you considering it?

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

Side with the pharisees? did Jesus side with Sodom when he spoke of capernaum??
Jesus replied he is God.
the pharisees: Only God can forgive sins
Jesus: I AM
Note: he did not dispute only God can forgive sins

Nobody here is disputing these issues. they are in complete agreement with catholic theology.

But in the whole ancient church a ministry was understood to be left by Christ. When a person approaches a priest for absolution, the priest is only acting as the physical presence of Christ. it is Christ that forgives.

Sub

 

[JTBT]

…
Can you give me an example of the crowds having a false impression of Jesus in Matthew?

Your kidding right?
Mt 27:23 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?” But the crowd only roared the louder, “Crucify him!”

Read Leviticus, chapter 5. God sets forth a way to have our sins forgiven. The man brings a sacrifice to the priest, confesses his sins, and they are forgiven.
Are you saying the man’s sins weren’t forgiven? Or are you saying that God set up a means in which the Old Covenant Jew could have His sins forgiven by working through men? Doesn’t the OT point us to the NT? Isn’t it but a shadow of the good things to come?

Yes the OT is a shadow of the good things to, but there is only one high priest, and his name is Jesus, he is a priest of the order of Melchizedek not Levi

Can you give me your take on what’s happening in John 20:20-23?

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/acc/john-20.html

here is a commentary on this verse

 

[JTBT]

I’m curious, JT, when is the last time you asked a person in your congregation to forgive your sins?
I have ask my Christian Brothers and Sisters to pray for me in the past month, and I will freely confess that I am a sinner to anyone.
Also, did you take me up on my invitation to a RC church? Are you considering it?Condisering: yes, taken you up on it: no.

Sub

 

[Subrosa]

Well thats awesome because we are all priests!
I didn’t know everyday priests had the Godly ability to judge a mans heart.

No priest can judge. That is not the position of the priest. This includes the whole priesthood of christians which you speak of.

But even you must admit that Jesus chose among men to be His ministers. Even in your own church you have a pastor (I assume).

The priestly ministry is spoken of even by Paul in Romans 15:15-16.

I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again,* because of the grace God gave me to be a minister*** of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Paul also tells us in Ephesians 4:11-14 of the different duties among Christians

11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,…

In the Levitical priesthood, we see God’s own intention concerning the priesthood and forgiveness of sin…

and is to sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for him for the sin he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

You cannot possibly justify any premise of a lack of ministry which was left by Christ.

Sub

 

[NotWorthy]

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=joh&chapter=20&verse=19#Joh20_19
here is a commentary on this verse

** Verse 21**. Even so send I you.
As I was sent to proclaim the truth of the Most High, and to convert sinners to God, I send you for the very same purpose, clothed with the very same authority, and influenced by the very same Spirit.

Jesus was not sent “just to proclaim the truth”. He was sent to free us from the bonds of sin. Just as the Father sent Him, so He sends us.

Notice the context of this “even so I send you” is not in proclaiming the Gospel. It is pointing directly toward forgiveness.

** Verse 22**. He breathed on them
Intimating, by this, that they were to be made new men, in order to be properly qualified for the work to which he had called them; for in this breathing he evidently alluded to the first creation of man, when God breathed into him the breath of lives, and he became a living soul: the breath or Spirit of God ( ruach Elohim) being the grand principle and cause of his spiritual and Divine life.

Very good. That is quite accurate in my opinion. They would have the Spirit of God within themselves as they performed the Ministry in which Jesus gave them the authority to do.

** Verse 23**. Whose soever sins ye remit
See the notes on Matthew 16:19;; 18:18. It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator.

Shame on our Lord and Savior for blaspheming. It seems like your Bible commentary is more aplologetics against the teachings of the Catholic Church then it is un-biased. It seems your commentator has a motive.

The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation. They who believed on the Son of God, in consequence of their preaching, had their sins remitted; and they who would not believe were declared to lie under condemnation.

So why is there any authority here and what’s this got to do with the Apostles.

Shouldn’t Jesus have simply said, “Those who believe, will be forgiven. Those who don’t believe will be condemned”. Your commentator seems to be letting his bias influence how he interprets this verse.

Dr. Lightfoot supposes that the power of life and death, and the power of delivering over to Satan, which was granted to the apostles, is here referred to. This was a power which the primitive apostles exclusively possessed.

So there was a need in the Church for the early leaders to have this power and authority, but not anymore? Where in Scripture does it say that any authority given over to the Church is only temporary? Doesn’t Jesus say, “Lo, I will be with you til the end of time” (paraphrasing).

 

[JTBT]

NotWorthy:
Shame on our Lord and Savior for blaspheming. It seems like your Bible commentary is more aplologetics against the teachings of the Catholic Church then it is un-biased. It seems your commentator has a motive.
QUOTE]

I’m sure the commentator is not a Catholic;
but I don’t see how that applies to only God forgiving sin, I was under the impression that this is what the Catholic Church believed.

other commentaries I have read say that the apostles were given authority to set up the Church, the Church doesn’t need to be re-set up over and over again only once that would be one reason for investing some powers in the original apostles that are not passed down. as far as the reconciliation that was a reciprocal doctrine, (I confess to you, you confess to me and we both confess to God ,claiming the shed blood of Jesus we pray for forgiveness and God forgives us)

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy;3396818:
Shame on our Lord and Savior for blaspheming. It seems like your Bible commentary is more aplologetics against the teachings of the Catholic Church then it is un-biased. It seems your commentator has a motive.
QUOTE]

I’m sure the commentator is not a Catholic;
but I don’t see how that applies to only God forgiving sin, I was under the impression that this is what the Catholic Church believed. As I’ve said numerous times. The Church has the authority to forgive sins. It is Christ who forgives the sins, but he uses the priest to perform this ministry in His Name.

Don’t overlook the context of this “giving over of authority”.

Your commentator acknowledges that Jesus passed on authority to the Apostles (Thank goodness someone has finally admitted that). Now, if this had happened during the Commissioning in Matthew 28, I would have to wholeheartedly agree.

But let’s look at the reverse. What if I told you that Jesus’ commissioning of the Apostles in Matthew 28 proves that they have the authority to forgive sins. You would be all over me telling me to look at the context. You’d tell me that this is the authority to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and to baptize. And you would be right in correcting me.

But yet the context of John is completely misconstrued by your commentator. For Jesus is talking, in John 20, specifically of the authority to forgive sins. For those sins that the Apostles forgive, Jesus will forgive. Those sins that the Apostles do not forgiven, they are retained.

other commentaries I have read say that the apostles were given authority to set up the Church, the Church doesn’t need to be re-set up over and over again only once that would be one reason for investing some powers in the original apostles that are not passed down. as far as the reconciliation that was a reciprocal doctrine, (I confess to you, you confess to me and we both confess to God ,claiming the shed blood of Jesus we pray for forgiveness and God forgives us)

Then you are completely overlooking Paul’s Epistles, especially to Timothy where he connotes the passing on of authority from Paul to Timothy, so that Timothy could teach others to pass it on to still others.

No, the Catholic Church doesn’t “re-set” up. That’s the job of Protestants!!! “I kid, I kid”.

 

[NotWorthy]

Evidently, there are two levels of forgiveness.

One is mortal - our forgiveness of one another for any sins committed by our brothers and sisters.

One is Sacramental, truly lifting the sins from our souls, and God is the only one that can do this.

Jesus preaches of Forgiveness:
A) to the crowds to forgive one another.
B) to the Apostles.

When preaching to the crowds, He preaches of forgiving others in order to be forgiven by God. Everyone here seems to agree that this is for our own good. If we forgive our brothers, we remove the hate and anger that forms in our hearts, preventing it from growing within us and making us turn to evil and sinning in far worse ways.

When preaching to the Apostles, Jesus teaches them to forgive others with his authority.

He says, "If YOU forgive someone (as a mortal forgives one another), then I will forgive them too (Sacramentally). But if YOU do not forgive someone (as a mortal refuses to forgive someone else), then I will refuse to forgive them, as well (Sacramentally)."

In this explanation, it is GOD who forgives us Sacramentally. It’s just the Divine Authority that Jesus has given to the Apostles to wield in His Name.

I hope this makes sense and is accurate to the teachings of the Church, for that’s the way I understand it.

 

[NotWorthy]

Its kinda sad no one will debate this with me, its such an important topic too

I know. You visited the forums yesterday but didn’t return to this thread. We missed you, my brother!!!

 

[JTBT]

No, the Catholic Church doesn’t “re-set” up. That’s the job of Protestants!!! “I kid, I kid”.

we don’t re-set up we reform …we need another Thread for this one maybe two.

 

[NotWorthy]

we don’t re-set up we reform …we need another Thread for this one maybe two.

Yes, maybe two, three, or more.

But I do think you “reform” by “re-setting”. You set up a new church here. Then you set up a new church there. That’s not good enough. So this church splits and one group re-sets up elsewhere…

 

[JTBT]

Yes, maybe two, three, or more.

But I do think you “reform” by “re-setting”. You set up a new church here. Then you set up a new church there. That’s not good enough. So this church splits and one group re-sets up elsewhere…

So maybe this is another way of spreading the gospel…

 

[NotWorthy]

So maybe this is another way of spreading the gospel…

**"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me

**I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received…striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I don’t think anything spreads the Gospel as well as unity. Sadly, I don’t see that enough…

 

[JTBT]

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me

I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received…striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I don’t think anything spreads the Gospel as well as unity. Sadly, I don’t see that enough…

Orthodox, Roman, and Reformers, members of all three make up the invisible Church of Christ that is one in Spirit.

 

[NotWorthy]

Orthodox, Roman, and Reformers, members of all three make up the invisible Church of Christ that is one in Spirit.

If you think we are completely one, then you are sadly mistaken.

The happiest day in Satan’s existence had to be the beginning of the split up of the Christian Church.

 

[JTBT]

If you think we are completely one, then you are sadly mistaken.

The happiest day in Satan’s existence had to be the beginning of the split up of the Christian Church.

are we completely one, no I know that. but we will never be completely one until we stop focusing on our differences and start focusing on Jesus.

 

[NotWorthy]

are we completely one, no I know that. but we will never be completely one until we stop focusing on our differences and start focusing on Jesus.

Amen!!!

So focus on how the early Church was “one”. They celebrated the Eucharist together. Their Mass was a Sacrifice. They went to confession and had their sins forgiven by a priest (the same way as today? Maybe not. But I think we’ve helped clarify on why the current way is better). Why did they do this? Because Jesus instructed the Apostles in this way.

I would love to be one, dear brother, I really would. It is one of my most fervent prayers. But I could never walk away from the Eucharist that Jesus gives us in order to be one. Other Sacraments of the Church, such as the Sacrament of Penance, are still more Gifts that Jesus offers us in the Church.

To walk away from those Gifts for the sake of unity could be best expressed by a further analogy.

There is a hurricane outside, while I’m cooped up in a rather well built house - one that should adequately stand up to the storm. Would I leave that house and venture out through the hurricane just to be with my brothers and sisters, who live in a house that is much less solid?