Confession and Matt 9:8

[ibetrippin07]

Its kinda sad no one will debate this with me, its such an important topic too

 

[NotWorthy]

In regarding the confession issue, why do you feel that men have the power to forgive sins?

I don’t think anyone here has claimed that men have the power to forgive. Read the thread, man!!!

But men have been given the authority. And it’s straight from Scriptures. Read the thread, man!!!

Matthew 9:8 claims that men have the authority (not the power, but the authority). John 20, coming straight from Jesus’ mouth, says that the Apostles can forgive or refrain from forgiving. Read the thread, man!!! Read the Scriptures!!!

Do you have the power to forgive your neighbors sins? Really is any man greater than the other? We are all priests, no pope… This ended according to Hebrews 5:1-4 “For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and savrifices for sins. HE CAN HAVE COMPASSION ON THOSE WHO ARE IGNORANT AND GOING ASTRAY, SINCE HE HIMSELF IS ALSO SUBJECT TO WEAKNESS. because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.”
Let say, no man takes this honor to himself. So if I am correct in this logic, what priest has the authority to take upon himself the ability to forgive sins???

Read the thread, my brother!!!

If this ended with the Old human High priests who is then to take this responsiblily, it isnt Peter… Its Jesus Christ! Heb 5:9-11, “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as a high Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.”

BTW, welcome to the Forums!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

In honesty do Catholics believe in a “personal” relationship with Christ? And if so why does this include you and your local priest and God and not just you and God?

Because Jesus instituted the Priesthood. Personal Relationship??? Why, Catholics brought “Personal Relationships with Christ” to the World in the Eucharist!!! Working through the Holy Spirit of course!

 

[NotWorthy]

Its kinda sad no one will debate this with me, its such an important topic too

I’m here.

 

[ibetrippin07]

I’m here.

Sorry i became anxious to study some more anti evolution stufff

Anyways its funny that you should base something of men having authority over one scripture and yet the other you refer to I think is John 20:23? “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Its funny you should cite this because if we look at Acts 8:20-23 we see that peter tell a man trying to buy his holy spirit with money…“Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray GOD if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.”
Also when you look at vs 24, we see Simon asks them to pray to the Lord for him that none of the things (e.g “bound by iniquity”)come upon him. Now if Peter was able to forgive this man why did he not forgive him of the sin against God? because he cant!
John 20:23 is simply referring to when a brother sins against you, you are to forgive him because our father in heaven forgives us
Even the pharasees knew this!!! Mark 2:7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

 

[ibetrippin07]

well the Eucharist is something i would like to discuss entierly sepeatly as to not get too many ideas going at once.

 

[ibetrippin07]

And my friend I have read the near end of the thread anyway. but in general i speak of. We are all on equal soil. No one is greater than the other lest we boast in our works…

 

[NotWorthy]

Sorry i became anxious to study some more anti evolution stufff

Anyways its funny that you should base something of men having authority over one scripture and yet the other you refer to I think is John 20:23? “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Its funny you should cite this because if we look at Acts 8:20-23 we see that peter tell a man trying to buy his holy spirit with money…“Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray GOD if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.”

Well, that’s a good point. But look closer at John.
What does Jesus tell the Apostles: “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” What was Jesus sent to do? To free us from sin. He gives that authority to Peter and the Apostles.

Now, of course, the Church teaches that you need to repent in order to have your sins forgiven. The Apostles (and the priests of today) just don’t go around forgiven sins that aren’t asked to be forgiven. That would cheapen the entire message of Christ “Repent and Believe in the Gospel”.

Also when you look at vs 24, we see Simon asks them to pray to the Lord for him that none of the things (e.g “bound by iniquity”)come upon him. Now if Peter was able to forgive this man why did he not forgive him of the sin against God? because he cant!

But he can! Look at Jesus’ words. Those sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Those sins you retain, they are retained!

Peter is telling Simon to repent of his sins, or they won’t be forgiven. Simon needs to pray for the Grace to repent of his sins.

John 20:23 is simply referring to when a brother sins against you, you are to forgive him because our father in heaven forgives us

No, it doesn’t. The second half of verse 23 disproves that. For God will forgive my brother even if I don’t. Jesus’ words have authority behind the Apostles forgiveness or retainment.

Even the pharasees knew this!!! Mark 2:7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

And you side with the Pharisees? I don’t think that’s wise when Jesus takes one side of an issue and the Pharisees take another.

If I were a betting man, I’d let it all ride on Jesus!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

And my friend I have read the near end of the thread anyway. but in general i speak of. We are all on equal soil. No one is greater than the other lest we boast in our works…

But Jesus gave authority to a group of people. That doesn’t make them greater. No Catholic should make that claim, and no priest that I know of makes that claim.

But authority is still given and you won’t acknowledge it.

 

[NotWorthy]

well the Eucharist is something i would like to discuss entierly sepeatly as to not get too many ideas going at once.

Start a thread and let me know.

 

[LilyM]

Sorry i became anxious to study some more anti evolution stufff

Anyways its funny that you should base something of men having authority over one scripture and yet the other you refer to I think is John 20:23? “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Its funny you should cite this because if we look at Acts 8:20-23 we see that peter tell a man trying to buy his holy spirit with money…“Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray GOD if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.”
Also when you look at vs 24, we see Simon asks them to pray to the Lord for him that none of the things (e.g “bound by iniquity”)come upon him. Now if Peter was able to forgive this man why did he not forgive him of the sin against God? because he cant!
John 20:23 is simply referring to when a brother sins against you, you are to forgive him because our father in heaven forgives us
Even the pharasees knew this!!! Mark 2:7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

This was one of those cases when Peter didn’t forgive, sure - not because he was unable to forgive, but because he CHOSE to retain the man’s sin. Christ gave him, as He does all priests, the authority to retain as well as forgive sins, remember.

And sometimes it’s both required and legitimate for priests to refuse absolution or forgiveness. In this case presumably because the man wasn’t repentant.

 

[ibetrippin07]

I would also like you to note what you pointed out on John 20:21, that Jesus sent them to do the great commission, to continue his work, Jesus can continue the forgiveness of sins from heaven as he already sacrificed himself for all men to be saved.
This is not one sentence like I also send you to forgive the sins of any.
Do you not believe that Jesus meant something about the wicked servant that did not forgive a debt when the greater debt was forgiven of him? clearly in that parable he is saying I forgive you man, you shall also forgive each other as i forgive you, not you shall forgive each other on my behalf for transgressions against me.
My friend i will need scriptural proof that the apostles forgave the sins directly of anyone man.
Again in the scripture of Acts we are discussing he did not ask for forgiveness of sins but to be spared of wrath! as we just said in John, what the apostles retain from what people will do of them, it will be added to them. the man was going to receive serious wrath for temping peter!

 

[ibetrippin07]

Side with the pharisees? did Jesus side with Sodom when he spoke of capernaum??
Jesus replied he is God.
the pharisees: Only God can forgive sins
Jesus: I AM
Note: he did not dispute only God can forgive sins

 

[ibetrippin07]

This was one of those cases when Peter didn’t forgive, sure - not because he was unable to forgive, but because he CHOSE to retain the man’s sin. Christ gave him, as He does all priests, the authority to retain as well as forgive sins, remember.

And sometimes it’s both required and legitimate for priests to refuse absolution or forgiveness. In this case presumably because the man wasn’t repentant.

Well thats awesome because we are all priests!
I didn’t know everyday priests had the Godly ability to judge a mans heart.

 

[NotWorthy]

I would also like you to note what you pointed out on John 20:21, that Jesus sent them to do the great commission, to continue his work, Jesus can continue the forgiveness of sins from heaven as he already sacrificed himself for all men to be saved.
This is not one sentence like I also send you to forgive the sins of any.

But it is.
A) I have authority, and I send you out with it.
B) Receive the Holy Spirit.
C) Forgive (and retain) other’s sins.

That is what is going on with the Commission of the Apostles. Jesus does similar in Matthew when he sends the Apostles out.

All authority in heaven has been given to me by the Father. Go therefore and baptize them, teaching them all that I have commanded. (paraphrasing)

Jesus has authority, and then he sends the Apostles out with that authority that was given to Him.

Do you not believe that Jesus meant something about the wicked servant that did not forgive a debt when the greater debt was forgiven of him? clearly in that parable he is saying I forgive you man, you shall also forgive each other as i forgive you, not you shall forgive each other on my behalf for transgressions against me.

Apples and oranges.

We must forgive our brothers in order to keep hatred out of our hearts (remember the Sermon on the mount). But if we refuse to forgive our brothers, even though they are repentant, then our Heavenly Father will still forgive them. Hence, this is obviously not the Sacrament of Penance that Jesus instituted to the Apostles in John’s Gospel.

Remember, when Jesus is talking to just the Apostles, he is often teaching them how to be priests and bishops. In other words, He is building His Church. When Jesus is talking to the crowds, He is teaching all of us how to be faithful Disciples.

My friend i will need scriptural proof that the apostles forgave the sins directly of anyone man.

Why? The Words of Jesus are not good enough for you? Just because it agrees with Catholic Doctrine, you demand further proof? Look at the early Church. They took Jesus at His words. Why can’t you?

Again in the scripture of Acts we are discussing he did not ask for forgiveness of sins but to be spared of wrath! as we just said in John, what the apostles retain from what people will do of them, it will be added to them. the man was going to receive serious wrath for temping peter!

Why? Peter is no better than any of us? Why would this be? You even agree with my statement (the one I underlined).

 

[NotWorthy]

Side with the pharisees? did Jesus side with Sodom when he spoke of capernaum??
Jesus replied he is God.
the pharisees: Only God can forgive sins
Jesus: I AM
Note: he did not dispute only God can forgive sins

The Holy Spirit inspired the Sacred author to right “and they praised God for giving this authority to men”.

Jesus said, “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you retain, they are retained.” That sounds like authority.

 

[ibetrippin07]

I find it interesting you paraphrased it that way, because you just said “Go therefore and baptize them, TEACHING them all that I have commanded.” Nowhere in this sentence do i see forgive people of their transgressions against God.
Right we have authority
Do you know what that authority is called? the Holy spirit! I have it, all believers have it and love having it because of the wonderful works God will use with it.

Can you agree with me that all believers = The Church? and can you agree with us all being priests in this church?

Well clearly if its so evident then you wont have ANY trouble DIRECTLY quoting the bible something saying go out and forgive transgressions against God.
Why do you exalt Peter for did he not deny Christ 3 times!? how is he greater than I??? do you not know of Matt 23:8-12 “But you, do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. BUT HE WHO IS GREATEST AMONG YOU SHALL BE YOUR SERVANT. and whoever exalts himself will be hubled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
speaks for itself

 

[LilyM]

Well thats awesome because we are all priests!
I didn’t know everyday priests had the Godly ability to judge a mans heart.

Really? If we are all priests alike, then who are the ‘presbyters’ that James says should be brought to the sick to anoint them? Why not just any believer if we all have all such priestly powers? Why would Simon even seek to buy the power Peter had except that it was extraordinary - why not just buy it from any believer if all were powerful alike?

Moral is, Jesus did NOT give all powers to all his disciples. And it doesn’t take a mind reader or a heart reader to know that a man who never once says ‘I’m sorry’ for his sins isn’t repentant, and isn’t even seeking forgiveness let alone deserving of it!

 

[ibetrippin07]

The Holy Spirit inspired the Sacred author to right “and they praised God for giving this authority to men”.

Jesus said, “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Whose sins you retain, they are retained.” That sounds like authority.

Yes I belive God has given authority to men, i.e the holy spirit so that men may perform great works to bring glory to his name.
Not forgive sins
Really does not sound like authority to me after the parable you will read “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matt 6:14-15

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.”

Note these, they are important to this discussion

 

[LilyM]

Yes I belive God has given authority to men, i.e the holy spirit so that men may perform great works to bring glory to his name.
Not forgive sins
Really does not sound like authority to me after the parable you will read “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matt 6:14-15

“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.”

Note these, they are important to this discussion

No they’re not - note Peter talks about situations where someone sins AGAINST HIM personally and directly.

When Jesus gives the Apostles the authority to forgive and retain He simply says ‘whosever sins you shall forgive … whosever sins you shall retain’. No mention of these having to have sinned personally against the forgiver. Different scenario. Here He is talking about offering forgiveness IN GENERAL, as only God can. A human as a mere human can’t forgive sins that have only been committed against another human, but since God permits it some (priests) CAN forgive ALL sin on His behalf.

And certainly the idea of my retaining someone’s sins who has sinned directly against me is total anathema and unChristian. Christ would never permit or command such.