Confession concern with my 11 year old daughter

[Windmill]

Um, this was always the case. The most basic research into the sacrament, particularly older prayers books and rituals, will clearly reveal that a confessor may ask questions as he deems necessary. It is part of the sacrament, especially when the penitent seems to need guidance, freezes up in the confessional, or seems to suggest, but not actually confess, certain sins. This is part and parcel of the confessor’s function. Read the old prayer books and see for yourself.

It would seem that many contemporary Catholics have been so accustomed so everything related to their faith being sugar-coated, that they take a offense when a confessor functions as confessors always did, at least in times past.

Ditto. While I think that we need to be on the watch for any negative trends or excessively-probing questions (IOW, the priest pushes an issue when the child denies any wrongdoing), I think we need to realize that the priest brought up this issue as delicately as a possible while still upholding his responsibility of guiding a confused and paralyzed soul through a complete confession. He may have suspected something (wrongly) and tried to gain clarification. When it turned up negative, he moved on and didn’t push the issue.

This is actually one reason why I don’t like “reconciliation rooms.” In the old days, there was a screen and a wall that separated the priest from the penitent. While there may have been cases of verbal impropriety, you could always know that nothing physical could happen. If I was a priest, I’d exercise my right as a confessor to only do confessions anonymously behind the screen. With the general public suspecting you are a “sexually-deranged celibate like the rest of 'em”, why open yourself up to another avenue of suspicion unnecessarily?

BEYOND THAT, I think your daughter needs to approach the priest that made her promise to go to confession once a month, explain to him that she is scrupulous and get this promise lifted. I can tend toward scrupulosity, and this type of thing can become an albatross around one’s neck rather than a spiritual remedy. It would help her have a healthy attitude towards the sacrament and give her peace about the future.

Also, tell her that many great saints struggled with scrupulosity early on in life. St. Therese of Lisieux would be a wonderful patron saint, as well as St. Alfonsus Liguori.

 

[windswept]

No 11 year old should bear the onus to “approach the priest to get the promise lifted” where it concerns a monthly confession. No 11 year old is mature enough to make such a promise.

Furthermore, this priest was entirely in the wrong, especially since he apparently knows the girl.

As a survivor of clergy sexual abuse, I can tell you for sure…this is how it starts, and even if the priest has no evil intentions, he’s a real dope to have put himself in this situation.
Windy

 

[historybrat]

No 11 year old should bear the onus to “approach the priest to get the promise lifted” where it concerns a monthly confession. No 11 year old is mature enough to make such a promise.

Furthermore, this priest was entirely in the wrong, especially since he apparently knows the girl.

As a survivor of clergy sexual abuse, I can tell you for sure…this is how it starts, and even if the priest has no evil intentions, he’s a real dope to have put himself in this situation.
Windy

Let me start off by saying I’m very sorry that you ever had to go through that. I’m sure it brought alot of pain, and though I cannot understand what you have gone through you are in my prayers. That being said please don’t paint all priest by your past experiences. Priest are suppose to help us with our confessions. If the OP had said that this happened out of the blue, I too would be very concerned. But the situation was that the OP’s daughter was struggling with her confession, at that point with some discretion it is the duty of the priest to help you complete your confession.
Many people hear have argued that it was inappropriate for the priest to bring it up at her age. I teach 14 year olds who are on their second and third children. I’m not saying anything about the OP’s daughter, but lets stop living in fantasy world where we all believe that in general eleven years are innocent to these types of topics. Just because your child is nnocent does not mean that all young girls and boys are innocent. Unless there is something else going on I would continue to put my faith in the priest.
However to the OP, it obviously bothered you. I would make an appointment and discuss what disturbed you with him. Even though I don’t think the priest was wrong, with this information he can prehaps be even more senstive to the situation and find a better approach to helping your daughter. As long as you go into the meeting open to listening to him and don’t accuse him or try to tell him how to do his job, I think you will find it beneficial.

Historybrat

 

[Windmill]

windswept,

I am very sorry for your experience. I sincerely hope you find healing in that.

As for your comment about an 11 year old being too immature to make that kind of promise, I agree with you. I should have clarified: since the child is scrupulous, the reason for approaching the priest-confessor about “lifting the promise” is for her mental benefit, not because I think it is “required”. Scrupulates should not make these types of decisions on their own, and having the original priest tell her she is freed from this obligation does a lot to temper scruples. If she has doubts in the future about this promise, she can fall back on the fact that she is obeying her confessor as per the Church.

 

[mercygate]

windswept,

I am very sorry for your experience. I sincerely hope you find healing in that.

As for your comment about an 11 year old being too immature to make that kind of promise, I agree with you. I should have clarified: since the child is scrupulous, the reason for approaching the priest-confessor about “lifting the promise” is for her mental benefit, not because I think it is “required”. Scrupulates should not make these types of decisions on their own, and having the original priest tell her she is freed from this obligation does a lot to temper scruples. If she has doubts in the future about this promise, she can fall back on the fact that she is obeying her confessor as per the Church.

. . . since we’re all talking through our hat here (and since when have I let THAT stop me?) perhaps the priest specified a monthly confession because the child wanted to come more frequently??? What do WE know?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I’m on lunch hour and didn’t have time to read through the whole thread so forgive me if this has been raised.

Unless the child was face to face, the priest would not have known if he was talking with an 11 year old girl, a 14 year old girl, or perhaps even a boy.

Most good Examination of Conscience sheets that we use ourselves will have us relfecting on whether we have engaged in immoral activities with others, and with ourselves.

Some have no idea just how out of hand self-abuse (aka masturbation) has gotten and to the point that for many, it has crossed over into a full-fledged addiction. Priests hear a lot of questions about this, and also encounter many who don’t know that the catechism is clear: It is objectively grave matter. However, guilt can be mitigated by various factors, such as whether it has become a severe habit. Sometimes the habit is set before the person even learns it is sinful. But, because there are mitigating factors does not exclude one from having to confess the grave matter.

Fr. Vincent Serpa explains in this post.

Since the priest perhaps thought your daughter was signaling a need for help with confession, which will often have a priest running through a total examination of conscience, I don’t necessarily think the priest did anything out of the ordinary.

While 11 may be too young for such a question, my guess is that the priest did not know she was only 11. Is 12 too young, or 13? These days, I think statistics will prove there is certain types of sexual activity already happening at these young ages.

Assuming that only a very minute percentage of priests have proven to be perverts, this priest could be doing young people a favor in asking the question if he thinks the child is old enough to be involved.

That’s just my :twocents:

 

[anamchara]

. . . since we’re all talking through our hat here (and since when have I let THAT stop me?) perhaps the priest specified a monthly confession because the child wanted to come more frequently??? What do WE know?

Ok, I’m still in camp that the age is to young to bring such a thing up but I’d like to through my two cents in on this one as well

It’s not right to ever make a child “promise” anything like that. You are right Mercy in that we don’t know for sure but since when does an 11yr old have a license to get herself to the Church for confession? What if the priest was making children promise this with parents who wouldn’t comply? Bad idea for many different reasons. I would avoid that if I were a priest.

Another thing I’d like add, it’s not “ghastly” to tell a priest how to do his job. For heavens sake how many traditionalists do we have on this forum who are constantly bringing stuff up with their priests about what should and shouldn’t be done. It’s all in how we do it, the tone we use. I had a priest once who jumped down so hard on an altar server that the little child was in tears. I was the altar server trainer. I went back into the sacristy and spoke with the priest myself and I had no problem telling him how wrong he was. I wasn’t mean about it. He actually ended up apologizing to the child and the mother. This priest had a habit of flying off the handle and there was several very old ladies that had no problem telling him how wrong he was at times. They were like his mothers. Sometimes a priest needs a kick in the behind just like the rest of us. As someone said in here, they do not walk on water! This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be respectful of course.

Again, just in case my words are taken wrong, it’s all about how we approach the priest and the tone we use.

 

[rayne89]

Just want to clarify the priest that asked my daughter to promise to come to confession once a month is a kindly “old school” elderly priest, he is not the same priest as the one that asked my daughter the question that caused some concern for me. I have great respect for both priests by the way.

 

[mercygate]

Just want to clarify the priest that asked my daughter to promise to come to confession once a month is a kindly “old school” elderly priest, he is not the same priest as the one that asked my daughter the question that caused some concern for me. I have great respect for both priests by the way.

. . . and this ‘promise’ is not a solemn vow, but more like godly counsel. You and your daughter know whether this is a good thing for her, and can determine with that priest whether she should maintain this practice.

 

[goodcatholicman]

Just want to clarify the priest that asked my daughter to promise to come to confession once a month is a kindly “old school” elderly priest, he is not the same priest as the one that asked my daughter the question that caused some concern for me. I have great respect for both priests by the way.

Sounds like you have a great kid. I understand the issue a little better after reading the post about her. I would still caution against talking to the priest.

 

[Linnyo]

I think the priest was probably unwise to ask such a question given the way society is. However, it is most likely that he wasn’t out to harm but to help. I think the wayin which your duaghter responded would be the best indicator of appropriatness. If she felt uncomfortable then perhaps you should talk to the priest. If she was matter of fact and not bothered then probably, the priest had been fine. I would use your daughters reaction to gauge whether or not it was improper.

 

[Writer]

I see no one else has repsonded, so I’ll take a stab at this one.

I am a mom and a teacher, and I think I would have similar questions if my son or a student related what your daughter did.

That being said, I don’t think you have overreacted simply by posting a question here. Your concerns are valid, because you are your daughter’s mother and you need to be vigilant for her growth and development.

Since you have this concern, and you are friends with this priest, I would definitely bring this up with him in private. No, he cannot reveal anything heard in the confessional. Yes, you can tell him what your daughter heard in the confessional and related to you.

How you approach him is the foundation of a positive outcome. If you simply want him never to suggest anything of this sort to your daughter again, tell him in kind, respectful, yet extremely firm language of your expectations. If you are concerned about his helping people state their sins in the confessional, offer to make copies of an examination of conscience people can peruse before receiving the sacrament.

Personally, I encourage you not to let this drop, because as a mother you are disturbed by it. And God made you this child’s mother and gave you this responsibility.

Look, it probably is that he is just trying to help young people in particular learn how to make a good confession, and that is really admirable. You can assist him in this by bringing your concerns for your daughter’s innocence. If he is this concerned about helping the penitent, he will most likely take your counsel to heart and reconsider what he asks of whom.

God bless you.
Gertie (who REALLY needs to go to bed now)

I agree… As a father of a daughter of close to the same age who is also on the verge of scrupulous at times, this would really upset my wife and I. I would follow-up with the priest until you are satisfied. Does he realize that the question may put ideas into the minds of our little innocents? I fail to understand why such a thing would be said–unless it related in some way to something else that the child had said, but this does not sound like the case. Reciting a laundry list of potential (and graphic) sins to a young child is not only unnecessary, but it also suggests a possible inclination towards voyeurism.

 

[Pong]

Reciting a laundry list of potential (and graphic) sins to a young child is not only unnecessary, but it also suggests a possible inclination towards voyeurism.

Oh come now! The priest was trying to help this girl through her confession. He asked a reasonable question, she was not comfortable with it, end of story. To make such an assertation over such a simple matter is ridiculous at the least and dangerous at the most.

 

[anamchara]

I agree… As a father of a daughter of close to the same age who is also on the verge of scrupulous at times, this would really upset my wife and I. I would follow-up with the priest until you are satisfied. Does he realize that the question may put ideas into the minds of our little innocents? I fail to understand why such a thing would be said–unless it related in some way to something else that the child had said, but this does not sound like the case. Reciting a laundry list of potential (and graphic) sins to a young child is not only unnecessary, but it also suggests a possible inclination towards voyeurism.

well put, thank you. Hopefully, this little girl has completely forgotten about it by now and that the OP will indeed say something to the priest. When my daughters were 11 yrs old they would have not understood what this meant or what it was related to.

 

[mercygate]

well put, thank you. Hopefully, this little girl has completely forgotten about it by now and that the OP will indeed say something to the priest. When my daughters were 11 yrs old they would have not understood what this meant or what it was related to.

Well, eleven year olds in our public schools are taught the ‘facts of life’ and are taught that masturbation is normal and good for you. I don’t know when your daughters were eleven, but I’m living in 2007.

 

[Writer]

Well, eleven year olds in our public schools are taught the ‘facts of life’ and are taught that masturbation is normal and good for you. I don’t know when your daughters were eleven, but I’m living in 2007.

If one is an observant parent, he can usually find ways to remove one’s child from those wonderful classes of “indoctrination”. We have done our job (despite the world’s attempts), and we are entrusted with the care and responsibility for two innocent and beautiful children. Just because some children may have received this information earlier than others does not mean that the rest of us need to expose this kind of trash to our kids. I think many times parents just shrug it off: their children will learn this stuff one way or the other. And they will. It is our job as parents, however, to decide when and how to explain this stuff to our kids–to give what is needed when it is needed. It is not the place of the school in most instances, and it certaintly not the job of the parish priest. My wife and I are in full agreement that, if this situation had taken place with regards to our kids, we would have taken it all the way to the bishop, if necessary. I don’t have a problem speaking my mind…

As I said, recitation of a laundry list of graphic sins to a young child (barely old enough to bear moral responsibility for her own choices) seems to betray more of a possible purient or voyeuristic inclination than a good spiritual leader who wishes to avoid planting the seeds of sin in the minds of the innocent. If there is a pattern of this, something needs to be done to take this priest to task.

 

[anamchara]

Well, eleven year olds in our public schools are taught the ‘facts of life’ and are taught that masturbation is normal and good for you. I don’t know when your daughters were eleven, but I’m living in 2007.

Mercygate, I feel pretty good about our public schools in our district, they implemented a solid character education program which is district wide. I love it, when I taught catechism I was able to make reference to many of the things I knew they were learning at school as long as it followed the Catholic teaching, which it always did. It’s important for kids feel good about their schools and that things you teach in the faith really are part of how we should live our lifes, what better way to learn this when they see their own school doing it.

I don’t have any issues with people homeschooling but I don’t like this constant paranoia about public schools and implying some sort of sinister plan to indoctrinate. Who does everyone think runs these schools and teaches? My daughters principle was a faithful Catholic as a matter of fact.

Our district is very open about what they teach, if you don’t like it you don’t have to be part of it.

My youngest was 11 yrs old last year all three of my girls watched a film in 6th grade about their periods, they were separated from the boys. They were not taught anything about masturbation nor were the boys. Parents had the option of watching the film first and if they didn’t want to have their children watch it they didn’t have to. They also had to receive a permission slip from us. So I am living in 2007 my friend not only that but I work for the district with children, so I’m fully aware of whats out there.

Now my SIL works down in a very large district in Orange County and it’s the same thing there. In my experience public schools are very sensitive to families and their faith practices.

Now we’ve gone off topic

 

[mercygate]

Mercygate, I feel pretty good about our public schools in our district, they implemented a solid character education program which is district wide. I love it, when I taught catechism I was able to make reference to many of the things I knew they were learning at school as long as it followed the Catholic teaching, which it always did. It’s important for kids feel good about their schools and that things you teach in the faith really are part of how we should live our lifes, what better way to learn this when they see their own school doing it.

I don’t have any issues with people homeschooling but I don’t like this constant paranoia about public schools and implying some sort of sinister plan to indoctrinate. Who does everyone think runs these schools and teaches? My daughters principle was a faithful Catholic as a matter of fact.

Our district is very open about what they teach, if you don’t like it you don’t have to be part of it.

My youngest was 11 yrs old last year all three of my girls watched a film in 6th grade about their periods, they were separated from the boys. They were not taught anything about masturbation nor were the boys. Parents had the option of watching the film first and if they didn’t want to have their children watch it they didn’t have to. They also had to receive a permission slip from us. So I am living in 2007 my friend not only that but I work for the district with children, so I’m fully aware of whats out there.

Now my SIL works down in a very large district in Orange County and it’s the same thing there. In my experience public schools are very sensitive to families and their faith practices.

Now we’ve gone off topic

Our district allows parents to opt out. Most parents do not choose to do so. Even Catholic parents. It would not surprise me in the least to learn that public schools are more sensitive to parents’ concerns about this than private schools; I know an A+ student who was not offered an 8th grade contract by her top-line NYC prep school because her parents kept her out of sex-ed, and offered to teach the “alternative” (i.e., Catholic) view.

 

[lukewarm]

I think it is incredibly bizarre and inaapropriate for a grown man priest or not to ask an 11 year old child about her mastubatory habits. Incredibly bizarre and I would think long and hard about leaving that child ever alone in his presence. You may think he’s great but you have no idea what demons this man may face. It is very abnormal and innapropriate.

 

[AHapka]

The only problem with all of this speculation is that we all (hopefully) will never know the exact conversation that took place during this confession. Nor should we desire to.

Now we don’t know how confession was offered here. Was it face to face? Was it in seperate rooms?

If it was behind a screen, or in a seperate room like the confessionals of old, there is no way the priest knew the age of the girl. Also the OP states that after the denial, the priest MOVED ON. We all know the girl was 11, the priest may not have. This makes a very big difference. The priest also doesn’t know if the girl is home schooled or in public school.

Next we need to consider that even if she was visible, it can be very hard to judge ages. I have a very tall 3 year old. Top of the height chart. We have friends who are short. Point is, when my little guy was 2 he was taller then their 5 year old. Just looking at him you would have thought he was older. We don’t know if the priest thought this was an older girl.

The most prudent way of handling this would be for the OP to talk to the priest and mention that her daughter was concerned about asking the question in confession. Now while the priest won’t talk about the confession, you’ll learn a lot from his reaction. If it’s a “it’s a standard part of my list” or “it’s something I ask all penitents who appear to be a certain age” or even a flat “i don’t discuss confessions” then I think you are good. If he becomes embarassed and begins to stammer, then your might want to start to worry.

For all we know, this question may have been part of a reasonable follow-up. None of us on this forum will be able to really know what happened cause we have no right to know what was said in the confessional. The parent has a right only if it stops being a confession and becomes more then that.

The OP could also tell her daughter that if the question is asked in a future confession to simply state “no” and move on. Your daughter should be aware of what dangers to watch out for (from any adult), and if the questioning gets more “leading” to even go so far as to interrupt the confession to talk to mom.

Personally, I would have no problem with the priest asking the question of my children when they get older. It he continued to push it after a flat out denial, then it’s time to worry.

Andy