Confirmed: Obama, Romney to attend Al Smith dinner [CWN]

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, and I think this warning should be considered by our American Bishops. Who was it that said the road to Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops?

While this may be true, it’s not something anyone on this earth can know. There is only one judge, of us all.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Rich, I believe we are all fools, from time to time. The good bishop is not impeccable and his judgment can be questioned. Let us not forget that marriage was redefined in NY under his watch and made law by Catholics under his care. He scarcely even put up a fight. All the smiles and empty rhetoric seemed to do him no good. What makes you think this time will be any different?

New York State is a very liberal state. The Cardinal is in charge of one diocese, and that isn’t of all NYC. Brooklyn is a separate diocese. Even if all the bishops in New York opposed some law like that, the Weltanschauung of the state would make it almost impossible to have it overturned or to not be passed. Their influence isn’t as great as it might be in a more Catholic-friendly state. I can’t blame him for not being able to perform the near-impossible.

What empty rhetoric by the Cardinal are you speaking of? BTW, yes, he always smiles - he’s a very warm person and much loved in the diocese.

 

[shocktrooper]

You have no possibility of helping the conversion of one’s heart if you stay away from them.

Can you explain to me what “no possibility of helping” means then? Would you like to rephrase it?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Can you explain to me what “no possibility of helping” means then? Would you like to rephrase it?

No rephrasing needed. The Holy Spirit converts one’s heart, we can only help people open their hearts to Him. To help someone open their heart, we usually have to be in their presence.

Christ said ‘…do good to them that hate you…’ The good Cardinal has invited both politicians to a charity fundraiser.

**Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: **

 

[shocktrooper]

New York State is a very liberal state. The Cardinal is in charge of one diocese, and that isn’t of all NYC. Brooklyn is a separate diocese. Even if all the bishops in New York opposed some law like that, the Weltanschauung of the state would make it almost impossible to have it overturned or to not be passed. Their influence isn’t as great as it might be in a more Catholic-friendly state. I can’t blame him for not being able to perform the near-impossible.

What empty rhetoric by the Cardinal are you speaking of? BTW, yes, he always smiles - he’s a very warm person and much loved in the diocese.

Maybe their power is diminished due to their lack of perseverance when it comes to defending the truth. The problems run deep in NY and everywhere in America and it is all due to 50 years of silence. Sucking down some good ole wine by the opposing generals while the troops are being slaughtered is not good stewardship or leadership. The laity need to know their bishops will support them and the truth no matter what, and not give in for the sake of mammon, while excusing their behavior with a false sense of charity (love of brother).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well of course we know that Cardinal Dolan doesn’t believe in withholding Holy Communion from politicians who vote pro-choice on issues, because he has a deeper understanding of the mission of the Church, and that mission is to bring people to the truth.

As the saying goes, you can’t draw people with vinegar, but with honey you draw many.

Refusing to invite the President of the United States, after the tradition has been to invite previous presidents would not help bring him to the truth, but more likely than not, drive him further away.

Jim

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well of course we know that Cardinal Dolan doesn’t believe in withholding Holy Communion from politicians who vote pro-choice on issues, because he has a deeper understanding of the mission of the Church, and that mission is to bring people to the truth.

As the saying goes, you can’t draw people with vinegar, but with honey you draw many.

Refusing to invite the President of the United States, after the tradition has been to invite previous presidents would not help bring him to the truth, but more likely than not, drive him further away.

Jim

It seems some have a dislike so deep they would prefer him to be driven away. This seems to ignore Christ’s prayer that even His persecutors be forgiven, for they knew not what they were doing.

 

[shocktrooper]

No rephrasing needed. The Holy Spirit converts one’s heart, we can only help people open their hearts to Him. To help someone open their heart, we usually have to be in their presence.

So now you say, “…we usually have to be in their presence”. That is different from what you said previously. You rephrased it without knowing.

Christ said ‘…do good to them that hate you…’ The good Cardinal has invited both politicians to a charity fundraiser.

What is good? Hardening Obama in his obstinate behavior toward Christ and scandalizing the faithful at the same time? Is that good? What father would give his son a snake when he asks for a fish? Doing good toward your enemy has nothing to do with this. You are not to do good toward your enemy at the expense of the innocent. Take the Church’s teaching on protecting oneself or another innocent when confronted with evil. The person is duty bound to defend the innocent even at the expense of the perpetrator’s life. The good is defending the innocent and the truth.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

What is good? Hardening Obama in his obstinate behavior toward Christ and scandalizing the faithful at the same time?

How is attending a banquet hardening a man in his behavior? You say that the faithful will be scandalized. Some will be, most, I think, will not be and will attribute the invitations to both presidential candidates as a benign act by the Cardinal.

Take the Church’s teaching on protecting oneself or another innocent when confronted with evil. The person is duty bound to defend the innocent even at the expense of the perpetrator’s life. The good is defending the innocent and the truth.

Do you think that it’s going to come to that? Bloodshed? “Murder in the Cathedral”? You are just too over the top in my opinion.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So now you say, “…we usually have to be in their presence”. That is different from what you said previously. You rephrased it without knowing.

I don’t think I rephrased it. I may not have made myself clear, but whatever, it’s not something to argue over.

What is good? Hardening Obama in his obstinate behavior toward Christ and scandalizing the faithful at the same time? Is that good? What father would give his son a snake when he asks for a fish? Doing good toward your enemy has nothing to do with this. You are not to do good toward your enemy at the expense of the innocent. Take the Church’s teaching on protecting oneself or another innocent when confronted with evil. The person is duty bound to defend the innocent even at the expense of the perpetrator’s life. The good is defending the innocent and the truth.

What is good? Not inviting the sitting president to an event that has become an election tradition over the years?

You’re confusing who the good is for in Christ’s command, ‘…do good to them that hate you…’ Do the innocent and truth hate us?

Christ is the Church. His teachings are what the Church is based on. I believe the Cardinal has a greater understanding of Church teaching than either of us.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

What is good? Hardening Obama in his obstinate behavior toward Christ and scandalizing the faithful at the same time? Is that good? What father would give his son a snake when he asks for a fish? Doing good toward your enemy has nothing to do with this. You are not to do good toward your enemy at the expense of the innocent. Take the Church’s teaching on protecting oneself or another innocent when confronted with evil. The person is duty bound to defend the innocent even at the expense of the perpetrator’s life. The good is defending the innocent and the truth.

Good is Christ’s promise that even the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

Please show me where Christ qualified an enemy so we knew which ones were not to be loved by us, or have good done to them? It’s not there…

 

[Ridgerunner]

So now you say, “…we usually have to be in their presence”. That is different from what you said previously. You rephrased it without knowing.

What is good? Hardening Obama in his obstinate behavior toward Christ and scandalizing the faithful at the same time? Is that good? What father would give his son a snake when he asks for a fish? Doing good toward your enemy has nothing to do with this. You are not to do good toward your enemy at the expense of the innocent. Take the Church’s teaching on protecting oneself or another innocent when confronted with evil. The person is duty bound to defend the innocent even at the expense of the perpetrator’s life. The good is defending the innocent and the truth.

As I recall, Jesus did not hang out with the Scribes and Pharisees. He condemned them as “whitened sepulchres” full of dead mens’ bones. He wasn’t very soft on the vain and the exploitive. He was different with those who committed sins of weakness.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

As I recall, Jesus did not hang out with the Scribes and Pharisees. He condemned them as “whitened sepulchres” full of dead mens’ bones. He wasn’t very soft on the vain and the exploitive. He was different with those who committed sins of weakness.

How would you describe His prayer to the Father; to forgive them, for they knew not what they did?

Christ’s message was full of love. One has to really stretch to spin it into hating anyone, in my honest opinion.

 

[shocktrooper]

It seems some have a dislike so deep they would prefer him to be driven away. This seems to ignore Christ’s prayer that even His persecutors be forgiven, for they knew not what they were doing.

No one is saying Obama shouldn’t be forgiven. We are just saying that one should not “cast one’s pearls before swine” for them to be trampled on or give what is holy to dogs. Obama is being treated as a guest of honor and he will use whatever he can to trample on the good intentions of Cardinal Dolan to get re-elected. Why would we give him this opportunity?

What damage can be done to the faith by not inviting him?

 

[Ridgerunner]

How would you describe His prayer to the Father; to forgive them, for they knew not what they did?

Christ’s message was full of love. One has to really stretch to spin it into hating anyone, in my honest opinion.

Hating someone and telling the truth on them and to them are not the same things.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No one is saying Obama shouldn’t be forgiven. We are just saying that one should not “cast one’s pearls before swine” for them to be trampled on or give what is holy to dogs. Obama is being treated as a guest of honor and he will use whatever he can to trample on the good intentions of Cardinal Dolan to get re-elected. Why would we give him this opportunity?

What damage can be done to the faith by not inviting him?

Wouldn’t inviting only one of the candidates give appearances of the Church supporting a candidate? This is not a political event. It’s a charity fundraiser and the big names are invited to help raise funds.

Christ said to forgive them 7 times 70 times…love your enemy…do good to them that hate you. I think the Cardinal is following Christ’s examples and teachings.

The president had to be humbled to accept an invitation from someone who is suing his administration.

Let us also not forget that Christ setup an authoritative Church with men He chose and appointed. He did not give authority to the multitude. If the Cardinal’s actions are not questioned by the Pope, or other Cardinals, we certainly have no rights to question his actions, such as been done in this thread and through other public media.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Obama is being treated as a guest of honor and he will use whatever he can to trample on the good intentions of Cardinal Dolan to get re-elected. Why would we give him this opportunity?

He AND Romney are guests of honor. Shall both be disinvited? Do you thnk he will use the opportunity to give a campaign speech? Will Romney give a campaign speech? Don’t read too much into a social gathering.

I’m certain that neither Obama nor Romney intend to make it a political event to their own benefit. Each knows the rules, and I expect no more than bad jokes and some overindulgence by some of the guests in food and drink.

What damage can be done to the faith by not inviting him?

Not to the faith, but to the reputation of the Cardinal Archbishop and to the reputation of the Church.

 

[april32010]

Exactly, so there’s still no conservative there.

ouch!:blackeye:

 

[jwinch2]

blog.archny.org/index.php/al-smith-dinner/
Timothy Cardinal Dolan:

No matter what you might think of this particular decision, might I ask your prayers for me and my brother bishops and priests who are faced with making these decisions, so that we will be wise and faithful shepherds as God calls us to be?

This is what I wrote on Cardinal Dolan’s facebook page when he posted this message:

Its not so much that I disagree with you Cardinal, its that I really pray and hope that you know what you are doing.

For WAY too long, Catholic bishops have stood shoulder to shoulder with Catholic in name only politicians and other politicians who are enemies of the Faith. This has provided excellent political cover for Catholics to vote against the teachings of the Church on issues of life, marriage, freedom of conscience, etc.

Are you doing it again? I don’t know. I hope you do.

Either way, I will be definitely praying for you and all bishops, priests, deacons, and religious.

Peace of Christ,

Peace,

 

[shocktrooper]

I don’t think I rephrased it. I may not have made myself clear, but whatever, it’s not something to argue over.

What is good? Not inviting the sitting president to an event that has become an election tradition over the years?

You’re confusing who the good is for in Christ’s command, ‘…do good to them that hate you…’ Do the innocent and truth hate us?

Christ is the Church. His teachings are what the Church is based on. I believe the Cardinal has a greater understanding of Church teaching than either of us.

I am saying that you can’t do “good” toward your enemy at the sake of the innocent. The innocent are the faithful flock that will be scandalized. The unfaithful Catholics will be hardened in their support for Obama, going against Catholic moral teaching.