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laneo
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Okay, let’s end this thread.
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Tantum_ergo
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Well, I hope that it did help a bit. It is all right to be confused, and you ‘are’ a real Catholic, but like all of us there are times where you just have doubts and confusion and turmoil. . .The Church, when it comes to matters of faith and morals, can be trusted absolutely, but it can be difficult to be humble and submit to its authority especially in today’s kind of atmosphere which is itself full of doubt and misery. Y’all just listen to the Church and if you have trouble, pray for understanding and acceptance of that teaching, and God will grant you the grace to both understand and accept.
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Carlan
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Hang in there Laneo, keep the faith. Give consideration to monthly confession.Pray for understanding and perseverence. I promise you if you do , all will come together for you in time. God bless you with his love and peace,
Carlan
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CMatt25
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So why would a person (no matter how much he or she sought to present himself as ‘humble’ and ‘not judging’) in essence set himself up **against God **and presume that somehow all --from the Scripture we have which he thinks ‘could be corrupted’, from the Church that we have which he is SURE ‘got corrupted’, and despite God’s own words to the contrary, HE alone living 2000 years or so ‘post’ Jesus is among the ‘few’ who has managed to ‘get it right’. . .
When every discussion is met with, “peace to you but I know I’m right” **QUOTE]
Tantum, OP Laneo has asked us to end this thread and I shall honor his wishes.
But in closing I can not allow you to imply, if this is what you were doing,that I presume all Scripture is in any way, shape, or form corrupted.
And certainly not allow you to imply that I in any way believe I am among the few to get everything right. Or that I somehow know I am right.
No such words of “peace to you but I know I’m right” have ever been uttered from my mouth. If anything I make the case over and over that we speak of and walk by faith. Not by sight. And not of 100% absolute certain knowledge with every dotted “i” and crossed “t” necessarily correct.
I do want to thank Carlan for her prayers. And peace (Note no “but I know I’m right” is attached) to both you and Carlan, and Laneo and to all. God bless!
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CMatt25
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Tantum, OP Laneo has asked us to end this thread and I shall honor his wishes.
But in closing I can not allow you to imply, if this is what you were doing,
that I presume all Scripture is in any way, shape, or form corrupted. And certainly not allow you to imply that I in any way believe I am among the few to get everything right. Or that I somehow know I am right. No such words of “peace to you but I know I’m right” have ever been uttered from my mouth. If anything I make the case over and over that we speak of and walk by faith. Not by sight. And not of 100% absolute certain knowledge with every dotted “i” and crossed “t” necessarily correct.I do want to thank you and Carlan for your prayers. And peace (Note no “but I know I’m right” is attached) to both you and Carlan, and to Laneo and to all. God bless!
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gurneyhalleck1
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Well it’s hard to know people’s motivations really. There is “I like” and “I think” and “I want” in many people’s judgments I"m sure. Many of us come to the conclusion on our own that we believe abortion is murder. We come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin, etc. then join the church that fits much of our moral agenda. Case in point, my best friend. He’s a staunch, hardcore Republican. He’s a Rush Limbaugh ditto-head. He also doesn’t like to think for himself. I get on his case for that. He loves to have Rush and the conservative magazines give him talking points and his opinions laid-out. He doesn’t analyze any issue on its merits, only on what the GOP tells him is the truth. So he has a certain pathology that lends itself well to having gurus.
He was an Episcopalian like I was (my parish since became ACNA, his stayed TEC) and before that Presbyterian as a kid and teen growing up into his early married years. He has never liked the Marian dogma, the infallible stuff, the papacy, the typical issues. But he’s always been pro-life, anti-abortion, anti-gay agenda, and very old-fashioned. The Catholic issues appealed to him very much. It was simply a matter of accepting some Marian stuff and, at his age birth control wasn’t an issue, and the catechism and magisterium/papacy has all the beliefs laid out without having to work through them, he rubber stamped the popes and became a Catholic. I sponsored him at the time in 2005 or so. He and his wife converted.
They moved to the Church that held their viewpoints the most that they already believed morally. And since the pope was right on the issues THEY already believed were right, he must be right on the contraception and Mary issues as well. Boom, converted.
So what I’m saying is that we often have an agenda and want a guru and we want a rubber stamp on our own goals, views, opinions, and agenda. It’s just a fact.
I believe the Holy Spirit guides us but the jury is out on what I see as the truth. I’m willing to admit that and take the hits I take for it here. The jury’s out. I just got through praying my rosary so…
He was an Episcopalian like I was (my parish since became ACNA, his stayed TEC) and before that Presbyterian as a kid and teen growing up into his early married years. He has never liked the Marian dogma, the infallible stuff, the papacy, the typical issues. But he’s always been pro-life, anti-abortion, anti-gay agenda, and very old-fashioned. The Catholic issues appealed to him very much. It was simply a matter of accepting some Marian stuff and, at his age birth control wasn’t an issue, and the catechism and magisterium/papacy has all the beliefs laid out without having to work through them, he rubber stamped the popes and became a Catholic. I sponsored him at the time in 2005 or so. He and his wife converted.
They moved to the Church that held their viewpoints the most that they already believed morally. And since the pope was right on the issues THEY already believed were right, he must be right on the contraception and Mary issues as well. Boom, converted.
So what I’m saying is that we often have an agenda and want a guru and we want a rubber stamp on our own goals, views, opinions, and agenda. It’s just a fact.
I believe the Holy Spirit guides us but the jury is out on what I see as the truth. I’m willing to admit that and take the hits I take for it here. The jury’s out. I just got through praying my rosary so…
There is a difference, I think, between analyzing various different outside sources of information on the basis of their own merits, and making a decision that “I don’t like being told what to do” and rejecting the Papacy entirely out of hand based on that - or, choosing the Papacy based upon, “Well, I’m feeling insecure, and I feel the need of someone to tell me what to do, and the Papacy is as good as anything else.” That would also be a flimsy basis for faith.
Can you see the difference between seeing that the Papacy was established by Christ in the Scriptures, and noticing that it carries on through every generation since - and basing a decision to follow it on that outside information - or basing the decision on interior judgements - “I want” - “I like” - “I think” - etc.
Yes, but we also have to do this based on outside information - history, Scripture, and tradition. Not based on our interior judgements of “I think” and “I like” etc.
Well, hopefully we’re using the process of logic that we learned in school (again, an outside source of information not based on personal judgement), of first collecting the data, then compiling it, and then analyzing it, without prejudging the outcome.
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jmcrae
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Not out of thin air, though, usually - and in this case, certainly not on the basis of what we learned in public school or from our friends at the bar. I think there is plenty of rational evidence against the idea that abortion is anything but murder, so it’s entirely possible that people come to the conclusion that abortion is murder, based on the findings of biological science, and the workings of high school logic - a+b=c - if the DNA is human (a), and if it’s alive (b), then it’s a human being (c). Now, there may be a certain population who are against abortion because all their friends are, or merely because they want to retroactively justify allowing their mentally retarded child to live, instead of aborting him when they received the diagnosis, but I’m thinking that’s a pretty small group of people - usually, they let the kid live because they were already pro-life, before. When they find that the Catholic Church uses the same logic, they become interested.
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