Confused Baptist, Potential Convert...

[Praetorian]

The Bible tells us that Christains are to pray for each other. this is intercessory prayer. The saints in heaven can not hear your prayers, they are not omnipresent and our prayer do not flow to them through the air waves. Finally only God can answer your prayers
By the way, every one that is in heaven is a Saint not just a special few.

I find it very disrespectful that you contradict every Catholic answer.

There are over 1 BILLION Catholics, okay? Baptists are very few in numbers.

Second of all, The Catholic Church was the FIRST Church of Christ, and that is why YOU and your faith is called “Protestant,” because of the key word, “Protest.” Martin Luther, the Wesley Brothers, etc, ALL left because THEY didn’t like it, and wanted their own faith. So please, we were founded by Christ himself, and we are the ORIGINAL Christian Faith.

 

[LilyM]

Revelation 5:8

8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The 24 elders represent the Church Triumphant, all those saints who are now in heaven. Notice that they are actively offering the prayers of Christians on earth to God. If they are offering our prayers, that means that they can also hear them. If they can hear our prayers, it is because God granted them this privilege. This passage is a wonderful illustration of the communion of saints.

God Bless,
Michael

Consider the fact that at one point in Revelation John sees and hears EVERYONE in heaven, on earth and under the earth, simultaneously.

Did John require omnipresence (or indeed any special power of his own) to do this, or did God graciously give him the gift to do so?

Would God do less for John on earth than now that John is glorified in His presence in heaven? And if for him then why not for all the heavenly saints?

 

[christcnection1]

Did John require omnipresence (or indeed any special power of his own) to do this, or did God graciously give him the gift to do so?

For sure, John was omnipresent; otherwise, how could he have done that?

Good point LilyM

 

[guanophore]

Okay, I don’t know if this should go here but I need some clarity on this. I have been trying to come understand Catholicism, and have many beliefs in common with Catholics. Sometimes, however, it seems like I come to wrap my mind around a concept and begin learn more about it and start to incorperate it into my own beliefs, then a Catholic will say something that sets me back. So its like…Hold the Phone, that can’t be,that’s not what I was understanding!? So here’s the question. Intercessory prayer. I thought that it was asking saints who are in heaven to pray on your behalf. All the different saints, in their earthly lifetimes had all experianced different trials and so some are prayed to often for more specific reasons because they were, for lack of a better word, experianced, with certain problems. Well, the other day, I was reading some responses, I can’t remember the thread, but it has been bothering be ever since. One non-Catholic said something like…How do you know that saints hear your prayers? Then the Catholic person said…Because they answer them, all the time? This is not intersession. This would be like me asking my pastor to pray for me, the prayer gets answered, and I give the credit for the answer to my pastor. I’m confused…

Supposing you went to your pastor because you were having difficulty understanding a passage of scripture, and said “can you help me with this?”. Just like St. Phillip explained the scripture to the Eunuch. If I ask St. Phillip to help me understand a passage, he can only do that because he is empowered by Jesus, just like your pastor might share his wisdom with you. We just don’t differentiate between the Godly men and women who are hear on earth, and those who have passed on.

 

[VociMike]

Hey if you don’t mind can you get OFF of OUR forums? I find it very disrespectful that you contradict every Catholic answer. Listen up sonny:
There are over 1 BILLION Catholics, okay? Baptists are very few in numbers.

No, we can’t go around kicking out everybody who disagrees with the Catholic Church. That’s a bunker mentality and a sign of weakness. Instead we simply need to be able to answer every serious question (and point out those that are unserious). The Catholic faith, being the true faith revealed by God, has no problem answering those serious questions.

 

[guanophore]

The Bible tells us that Christains are to pray for each other. this is intercessory prayer. The saints in heaven can not hear your prayers, they are not omnipresent and our prayer do not flow to them through the air waves. Finally only God can answer your prayers
By the way, every one that is in heaven is a Saint not just a special few.

I am curious what you think. How did the prayers get into the bowls of the saints and elders in heaven spoken about in the book of Revelation?

 

[guanophore]

I am a former Catholic and can understand your confusion. When you pray to the saints you are simply asking them to ask God for help for you. When your prayers are answered, it’s because God has given His answer, whether it’s what you wanted or not. He always answers prayers but He answers them in the way that is right for us, not necessarily in the way that we want. The saints are helping us. Someone said that everyone who is in Heaven is a saint. I firmly believe that. I often talk to deceased relatives and ask their help. They can easily relay my problem or question to God and He can then respond. Don’t give up. The saints are on your side!

Sounds to me like you are still Catholic!

 

[guanophore]

Heb 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 **Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. **

"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7 "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8 "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9 "Pray, then, in this way: **Our Father who is in heaven**, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 `And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’

**It appears Only the Father hears prayers behind the closed door.

There is certanly no direction given by Jesus to pray to anyone but God.**

It certainly does 'appear" that way. And it may also appear to you that Jesus taught His Body was somehow divided, but it does not “appear” that way to those of us who have the teaching handed down by the Apostles. Catholics believe that Jesus did not lie when He promised to preserve the Apostles in all truth.

I have a question for you. How did Peter know that Annanias and his wife lied about the price they got for their property?

 

[zzz]

No, we can’t go around kicking out everybody who disagrees with the Catholic Church. That’s a bunker mentality and a sign of weakness. Instead we simply need to be able to answer every serious question (and point out those that are unserious). The Catholic faith, being the true faith revealed by God, has no problem answering those serious questions.

Thank you, VociMike!

 

[guanophore]

How do you know God desires us to pray to dead saints?

Because His word repeatedly tells us to pray for one another. Because we know that we all belong to one body. Because we know they are not dead.

The Lord Never taught anyone to pray to humans, only to God the Father.

You are making a false distinction. When we agree in prayer, and we pray in God’s will, there is no distinction between the persons. We all together bring the prayer as one.

Jews don’t pray to saints. The were given the very “Oracles of God”

Before the death of Christ, the gates of heaven had not yet been opened. The saints were not able to enter the beatific presence.

The Apostles never teach praying to dead saints. No one ever is commanded or seen to be praying to St. Stephen or St. James or any other martyr.

That is because the authors were among the first to be martryd. St. Stephen, and shortly thereafter, St. James. Most of the NT was written already at the time, and the part that was not, Revelation DOES talk about the prayers of the saints. You are suffering from sola scriptura. We know from the Apostolic teachings that this was done throughout history.

The ECF’s know nothing about prayer to saints.

!!! which ones are you reading!!!

would also have to say that the church fathers understood Scripture and they supported this doctrine.

Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Origen
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Methodius
“Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

“Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away” (ibid.).

“And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’” (ibid.).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

 

[runandsew]

We see that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, that the rich man, whether he is in hell, hades or what I am not sure, but he is able to communicate with Abraham, he also has concerns for his family who are still alive on earth.
The rich man asks that Lazareth be sent back from the dead to warn his family members.

Now this in the only parable in which Jesus uses a name, and it just happens to be the name of his very good friend Lazarus, whom he brought back from he dead.

Coincidence?

Now from this parable what do we see?
The dead are concerned for us.
And if the rich man in hades or the abode of the dead could request such a thing, just think how much more the Saints in Heaven would be granted their requests.

**Luke 16:19-34 **
There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’"

 

[guanophore]

Offcourse, I assumed you knew that when I called them saints. My question is how can they hear us and why are we not taught to pray to them by Jesus and the Apostles?

You will know the answer to this when you figure out how Peter knew people were lying to the HS in the book of Acts. The Sacred Tradition IS the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

Again, like most Catholic only doctrines this is an extrapolated, rationalized doctrine with Zero direct references or commands from Jesus or the Apostles!

Yes, it is one of the doctrines that has a larger witness in Sacred Tradition than in the Sacred Writings. But for us, they are the same level of authority, so it only becomes a problem for people that reject the Magesterium.

Jesus teaches them how to pray and it is ONLY to the Father! No disciple asks Stephen, James or Mary to intercede for them. No ECF mentions prayer to those saints in heaven.

Stephen was still in his bodyat the time. They probably went to his house.

Pray for, not pray to one another. It is assumed that the fervant prayer of a righteous man, is spoken about a living, breathing earthly being. Certainly the Jews never understood that prayer needs to be mediated by those in heaven.

Fortunatly, Jesus has shared with us the ministry of reconciliation, allowing us to participate in His great mediation.

You are the only one making the assumption that the righteous stop being righteous and able to pray when they leave their body. In fact, to be absent from the body is to be present to the Lord.

The early church knew nothing about it. The letters of the NT were written to churches on the earth, presumably filled with people who were alive at the time. The request for prayer was either face to face or by written letter. Again, the assumption is that those who can read what the Apostles wrote are alive on earth.

Yes, it was not until after most of the NT was written that martyrdoms and deaths of saints began to be memorialized. Those writers of the letters were among the first. Do you think that the Revelation of God stopped when the gospels and letters were written?

 

[guanophore]

Hey if you don’t mind can you get OFF of OUR forums? I find it very disrespectful that you contradict every Catholic answer. Listen up sonny:
There are over 1 BILLION Catholics, okay? Baptists are very few in numbers.

Second of all, The Catholic Church was the FIRST Church of Christ, and that is why YOU and your faith is called “Protestant,” because of the key word, “Protest.” Martin Luther, the Wesley Brothers, etc, ALL left because THEY didn’t like it, and wanted their own faith. So please, we were founded by Christ himself, and we are the ORIGINAL Christian Faith. Step Down Bro

If allischalmers were to leave, how would all us poor, lost catholics ever hear the "real gospel?

 

[Bishopite]

Okay, I don’t know if this should go here but I need some clarity on this. I have been trying to come understand Catholicism, and have many beliefs in common with Catholics. Sometimes, however, it seems like I come to wrap my mind around a concept and begin learn more about it and start to incorperate it into my own beliefs, then a Catholic will say something that sets me back. So its like…Hold the Phone, that can’t be,that’s not what I was understanding!? So here’s the question. Intercessory prayer. I thought that it was asking saints who are in heaven to pray on your behalf. All the different saints, in their earthly lifetimes had all experianced different trials and so some are prayed to often for more specific reasons because they were, for lack of a better word, experianced, with certain problems. Well, the other day, I was reading some responses, I can’t remember the thread, but it has been bothering be ever since. One non-Catholic said something like…How do you know that saints hear your prayers? Then the Catholic person said…Because they answer them, all the time? This is not intersession. This would be like me asking my pastor to pray for me, the prayer gets answered, and I give the credit for the answer to my pastor. I’m confused…

Either the Catholic is confused or it is a question of semantics. The Saints being part of the body of Christ as are the Christians on Earth hear our prayers and intercede for us, however they themselves DO NOT answer our prayers, ONLY God can answer prayer. What they do is petition God to help us, just as Paul in Phil 1:3-5
“I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy, thankful for your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now”
God is our Father, we who are “in Christ” are part of His family and those within that family are to pray for one another, but it is always God alone who answers prayer.

 

[runandsew]

The early church knew nothing about it.

Then how do you explain the writings in the Catacomb’s which read: “Peter and Paul, please pray for us”?

I am sorry, but praying to the saints was a very early Christian practice as has been shown by the quotes of the ECF’s, and the fact that there are things written in the catacomb’s which support this notion.

You might not agree with it, but it was there.

I have to say thought that if Christians pray to the Saints as a means to bypass Jesus to get to God, then they should quit praying to the Saints.

 

[VociMike]

Thank you, VociMike!

High praise from a Gorchian.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

There is something I am not understanding here. Do some folks not believe in life after death? Is life after death not a Christian teaching? Or is it only figurative speech? Well, then is the Resurrection only figurative speech too? What about the Apostles Creed? Figurative speech?

What is going on here? We have given ponderous answers to the simple question existing in the minds of some about whether people live after death. In return we have received opinion, not supported opinion, just opinion repeated. I don’t get it. Is it life after death that people don’t believe or only the life of Catholic Saints after death?

Can someone explain to me Who decides if someone is alive or dead? Thank you.

 

[guanophore]

There is something I am not understanding here. Do some folks not believe in life after death? Is life after death not a Christian teaching? Or is it only figurative speech? Well, then is the Resurrection only figurative speech too? What about the Apostles Creed? Figurative speech?

What is going on here? We have given ponderous answers to the simple question existing in the minds of some about whether people live after death. In return we have received opinion, not supported opinion, just opinion repeated. I don’t get it. Is it life after death that people don’t believe or only the life of Catholic Saints after death?

Can someone explain to me Who decides if someone is alive or dead? Thank you.

Jesus decides, and He says that those who are in HIm are alive forevermore!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Jesus decides, and He says that those who are in HIm are alive forevermore!

Whew. Thanks for that. Some things are so simple. Dunno why folks make them so complicated.

Actually let me say this: For the last two weeks I have had this image in my mind of a machine that folks used to use back in the days. They used it to demonstrate how the Sun and the Celestial bodies revolve around the Earth.

Thing is, that it could not account for the existing observations. So folks would arbitrarily add stuff to the mechanism even though they could not justify adding it. Yet they could never get the thing to jibe with the observations.

When they built a model based on the Earth revolving around the Sun – tickety boom! It worked.

Occam’s Razor, folks. If its already complicated and you have to keep adding things to your explanation and it still doesn’t jibe with reality, then – tah-dah – you’re theory is probably just wrong.

 

[VociMike]

Either the Catholic is confused or it is a question of semantics. The Saints being part of the body of Christ as are the Christians on Earth hear our prayers and intercede for us, however they themselves DO NOT answer our prayers, ONLY God can answer prayer. What they do is petition God to help us, just as Paul in Phil 1:3-5

Quite right. But even the bible uses terminology which makes the human out to be the one performing the act, rather than God. For example, Mk 6:13:
And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.

And Acts 28:8:
It happened that the father of Publius lay sick with fever and dysentery; and Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him healed him.

So saying that a saint answers a prayer is to be understood in the same way as saying that a disciple cast out demons and healed the sick. It’s just a form of shorthand.