Consequences of not asking Virgin Mary for intercession

[Tantum_ergo]

THIS is where YOU are going off track, EM–not to mention putting words into MY mouth which I did not utter.

That Mary is CENTRAL to Christ’s life does not put her AHEAD OF Him nor did I say that or anything like it.

Try reading the Catechism HERE. . .
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed3.html#MARY

 

[allhers]

Is her mediation merely by intercession, prayer for us to her Son and to God the Father? Or does she also play a role in the distribution of graces from the Father through her Son to us? Many today, influenced by Protestant theology, tend to speak of grace merely as favor, and so say grace is not a thing given. But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power.

So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:

“… when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : ‘Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.’”

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
It also says that Lumen gentium speaks of her as taking care of all her children.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

THIS is where YOU are going off track, EM–not to mention putting words into MY mouth which I did not utter.

That Mary is CENTRAL to Christ’s life does not put her AHEAD OF Him nor did I say that or anything like it.

Try reading the Catechism HERE. . .
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed3.html#MARY

So exactly how do you see this claim that the BVM is central to Christ’s life being defined???

The term was not defined so I think, now that I have confronted the issue, some may opt to dance around the original wording.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Is her mediation merely by intercession, prayer for us to her Son and to God the Father? Or does she also play a role in the distribution of graces from the Father through her Son to us? Many today, influenced by Protestant theology, tend to speak of grace merely as favor, and so say grace is not a thing given. But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power.

So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:

“… when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : ‘Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.’”

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
It also says that Lumen gentium speaks of her as taking care of all her children.

None of this is in conflict with anything I have said so far.

 

[allhers]

EM, can you state in one sentence exactly what it is that you are looking for?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

EM, can you state in one sentence exactly what it is that you are looking for?

It has been claimed that it is perilous to not ask the BVM’s intercession (over and above any request in the liturgy), that there are (negative) consequences.

Now there is a claim that Mary is central to CHRIST’s life.

Neither of these claims have been substantiated with valid, church teaching so far.

 

[allhers]

It has been claimed that it is perilous to not ask the BVM’s intercession (over and above any request in the liturgy), that there are (negative) consequences.

Now there is a claim that Mary is central to CHRIST’s life.

Neither of these claims have been substantiated with valid, church teaching so far.

Oh okay. Everybody read this then:

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc6.htm
(pay particular attention to # 2 and # 4.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I would like to see the definitive Church teaching that Mary was **not **central to Christ’s life. . .even if one only were to view her relationship with her son as that of ‘parent to child.’

Is there anybody who believes that a parent is not central to a child’s life simply by virtue of being a parent? Would the child have existed without the parent?

And we are not talking even of such a thing as an ‘absentee’ parent or an ‘unloving’ parent, who may be ‘central’ in view of having been the means to the child’s conception but from then on do not ‘involve’ themselves in their child’s life–which is emotional negative force.

Or of parents who are NEGATIVE central forces in their child’s life through virtue of abusing the child physically .

We are talking of the Mother of God (again, remember this link in the Catechism which gives some of the Church’s teachings on the Virgin and her relationship to Christ and to us. . .christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed3.html#MARY )

Yes, Mary is ‘central’ to Christ’s life. A mother is ‘central’ to her child’s life. . .be it for good or evil (a father likewise).

Remember, Jesus is God AND man. Ignoring the ‘man’ and His human relationship is skewing the entire conception (no pun intended) of who Christ is.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I would like to see the definitive Church teaching that Mary was **not **central to Christ’s life. . .even if one only were to view her relationship with her son as that of ‘parent to child.’

Is there anybody who believes that a parent is not central to a child’s life simply by virtue of being a parent? Would the child have existed without the parent?

And we are not talking even of such a thing as an ‘absentee’ parent or an ‘unloving’ parent, who may be ‘central’ in view of having been the means to the child’s conception but from then on do not ‘involve’ themselves in their child’s life–which is emotional negative force.

Or of parents who are NEGATIVE central forces in their child’s life through virtue of abusing the child physically .

We are talking of the Mother of God (again, remember this link in the Catechism which gives some of the Church’s teachings on the Virgin and her relationship to Christ and to us. . .christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/creed3.html#MARY )

Yes, Mary is ‘central’ to Christ’s life. A mother is ‘central’ to her child’s life. . .be it for good or evil (a father likewise).

Remember, Jesus is God AND man. Ignoring the ‘man’ and His human relationship is skewing the entire conception (no pun intended) of who Christ is.

How are you defining central?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

For pity’s sake:

Sigh.

Central.

As in “I am **NOT PUTTING MARY AHEAD OF JESUS **or saying she is GREATER THAN HE” but she is His Mother, she was chosen by God, she has a part in salvation history, she has a relationship to God and to the Church that is attested to by the Church. The fact that she was born, said ‘yes’ to God, bore the Savior, nursed and taught Him, and that Scripture records that He was obedient to her (for 30 years) and that He gave her the honor of a son for a mother, listened to her and acted upon what she said at Cana, entrusted her to the care of St. John and by extension (as is taught by the Church) made her the new Eve and thus mother of all the living and our mother, and finally crowned her as Queen of Heaven, makes her ‘central’ to His life as God and Man, as Son, and as savior. You know, important. Crucial to His own birth; important as mother in a mother-child relationship; daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, and spouse of the Spirit. Highly honored (“All generations will call me blessed”). Most perfect creation of God. Above all, loved.

Without Mary’s cooperation with God, there would have been no Jesus of Nazareth. That does not make her more important than Jesus. It does make her ‘central’. Because God HIMSELF makes her central. God didn’t just pick a woman’s name out of a hat, incubate her, then tell her, "go on, live your own life’, and forget about her. Her life as mother of the Savior did not ‘cease’ when Jesus ascended, or even on her own death/dormition. . .it continues today.

So, what do YOU consider central, and how does Mary fail to realize being central in Jesus’ life by YOUR definition???

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There are no ‘consequences’ - it is optional to do.

Some similiar issues are being dealt with in the Apologetics area.

If it were essential, that would mean the BVM was as essential to Catholicism as God; it would imply that the BVM is a goddess, or is Goddess. Since she is as much a creature as we are, she cannot be a Divine Person, so prayer to her cannot be as important as prayer to God, so it cannot be essential for us to pray to her, so it *must *be optional. ​

There’s far too much emphasis on the wretched woman anyway - we’re supposed to be Christians, not Marians: they are not equal, nor anything remotely like that: He is our God & Saviour & Lord & much more beside - but Mary ? She’s nothing, except in relation to God; just like any other creature.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Then please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church in her regard; it is quite clear [emph. mine]:

It is a poor child that ignores his Mother.

**Figurative expressions are no foundation for proof (as Aquinas points out). She is not our mother, but the mother of Jesus, so she is not our mother in the order of nature; our own mothers are. Nor is she our mother in the order of grace: the Father of Jesus is our father in the order of grace, but Mary is not co-equal in status or causality or in any other respect with the Father of Jesus: He is God - she is not. So to call her our mother, is to speak in an **extended, specifically metaphorical, sense. And such uses of language are non-proper; they are figurative.​

---

So it is not possible for her to be to us a mother in the same sense as God is our Father. The words are being used in dissimilar ways, to refer to dissimilar beings. To use these terms as though they were terms for beings of the same status, is to commit the fallacy of equivocation: and that can easily lead to serious confusion.

**Besides, it is a poor mother that does nothing for her children: & for a lot of Catholics, that is what she has done. So that “argument” cuts both ways. **

 

[water]

but Mary ? She’s nothing, except in relation to God; just like any other creature.
…
Besides, it is a poor mother that does nothing for her children: & for a lot of Catholics, that is what she has done. So that “argument” cuts both ways.

What did you mean “She’s nothing?” “poor mother”? You believed she hasn’t done anything?

 

[Genesis315]

**Besides, it is a poor mother that does nothing for her children: & for a lot of Catholics, that is what she has done. **

That’s completely false. What you see as nothing is like a little spoiled child who sees his mother as a poor mother because she won’t give him candy when he wants because it is not best for him. Sometimes labors, suffering, and trial are more conducive to our salvation than pleasure and comfort. Mary cannot force our free will, but she constantly prays that all in the Church have the graces necessary for salvation. And that is the greatest service a mother can ever provide for her children.

 

[Genesis315]

Since Mary’s dignity is a derivative of Christ’s, to diminish her dignity is diminish His. For example, Protestants who think we raise Mary’s dignity to that of Christ have actually lowered their understanding of His dignity to hers.

Why would anyone choose not to give honor to Mary (as Scripture says, give honor to whom honor is due)? Likewise, why would one not seek her intercession? I do not want to pass any rash judgments, but I cannot think of any reason besides those harmful to salvation that would lead to such an attitude toward the Mother of God.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Since Mary’s dignity is a derivative of Christ’s, to diminish her dignity is diminish His. For example, Protestants who think we raise Mary’s dignity to that of Christ have actually lowered their understanding of His dignity to hers.

Why would anyone choose not to give honor to Mary (as Scripture says, give honor to whom honor is due)? Likewise, why would one not seek her intercession? I do not want to pass any rash judgments, but I cannot think of any reason besides those harmful to salvation that would lead to such an attitude toward the Mother of God.

No one has said anything about denying the BVM any honor or dignity (well other than those who unintentionally tried to derail the thread).

If one is not drawn to asking her for intercession (over and above what is in the Church’s liturgies) there is NOTHING HARMFUL OR PERILOUS involved.

 

[ElizabethPH]

No one has said anything about denying the BVM any honor or dignity (well other than those who unintentionally tried to derail the thread).

If one is not drawn to asking her for intercession (over and above what is in the Church’s liturgies) there is NOTHING HARMFUL OR PERILOUS involved.

you are starting to sound like a broken record; and I don’t mean that uncharitably I don’t think anyone really has disagreed with you Eilish (I want to put an a at the end of your name) anyway; I’d just like to say I agree with you for the most part; but at the same time I know that for me personally my Hail Mary’s are most helpful and if I were to stop them I know that I will put myself in danger of getting off track especially in a particular area in my life.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

you are starting to sound like a broken record; and I don’t mean that uncharitably I don’t think anyone really has disagreed with you Eilish (I want to put an a at the end of your name) anyway; I’d just like to say I agree with you for the most part; but at the same time I know that for me personally my Hail Mary’s are most helpful and if I were to stop them I know that I will put myself in danger of getting off track especially in a particular area in my life.

Yes - it feels like being a broken record but folks HAVE disagreed and (with good intentions) end up taking things off track trying to prove their position.

Just as an aside -do you or don’t you agree once you set your personal practice aside?

 

[ElizabethPH]

Yes - it feels like being a broken record but folks HAVE disagreed and (with good intentions) end up taking things off track trying to prove their position.

Just as an aside -do you or don’t you agree once you set your personal practice aside?

Like I said I would be afraid to get off track if I set my devotion aside. If I’m to understand your question. So I must disagree for the most part; but in regards for a person who’s never had a devotion it’s different; from my point of view though they are missing out as I was before I started my devotion, it has helped me so much.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Like I said I would be afraid to get off track if I set my devotion aside. If I’m to understand your question. So I must disagree for the most part; but in regards for a person who’s never had a devotion it’s different; from my point of view though they are missing out as I was before I started my devotion, it has helped me so much.

Your response is confusing because your coloring it (extensively) with your personal situation. Maybe these questions will make the issue clearer:

Does the Church to your knowledge require more than adherence and belief in its teachings and participation in its liturgies when it comes to requesting the intercession of the Communion of Saints?

Does the Church to your knowledge teach that you are rejecting God by not requesting the intercession of the Communion of Saints - especially the BVM outside of its liturgies?

Does the Church to your knowledge teach that one is in peril or is a “minimalist” (whatever that means in terms of the Chuch) by not requesting the intercession of the Communion of Saints - especially the BVM outside of its liturgies?