Conservative Cardinal [Burke] Who Clashed With Pope Francis Confirms He Has Been Ousted

[PRmerger]

Sinners who made grave errors in their younger days (especially marriages which never should have occurred in the first place) are being told sorry; it’s my way or the highway.

Yes, that is what Jesus told sinners. And that is what the Church must do, too.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Cardinal Burke seems like a passionate man who loves the Church. However, he has made some very confrontational statements towards Pope Francis. It seems as if he takes statements by our Holy Father in the worst possible way and uses them to garner support for himself. The best way to handle a disagreement is in private, not through the media mouthpiece. Perhaps the assignment in Malta will give him time to reflect and find a better way to communicate his concerns with his boss.

Is there anyone here who could badmouth their boss in public and get away with it?

 

[phil19034]

+Burke was made a Cardinal while at the Vatican, NOT at St. Louis.

Most Vatican Cardinals are made Cardinal-Deacons due to the nature of their Dicastaries, their charism, so to speak, as Cardinals, is that of Service, thus the tie in with the Diaconate. It was very much to be expected that he would be made a Cardinal-Deacon

Cardinal Arinze, for example, was moved, as an Archbishop to the Vatican and made a Cardinal-Deacon.

And being moved from an intermediate See to head a Vatican Discastary is considered an honor, so Pope Benedict bestowed an honor on him

Hi Brendan,
I know the the difference between Cardinal-Deacon and Cardinal-Priest, and I know that moving to the Roman Curia is SEEN as a promotion, especially if the man is a priest. But moving a relatively young Archbishop to the Vatican (not Titular Bishop or ordaining a Curia priest to bishop) MIGHT have several factors. Sometimes a promotion isn’t just a promotion.

Pope Benedict removed (accepted a very early retirement) from at least one American bishop who people (and priests) said was a very holy man, but lacking people skills.

To be a good leader, you can be seen by your peers and subordinates as abrasive.

Now, with that said, I honestly think Cardinal Burke is doing what God wants him to do, speak the Truth no matter what. Don’t get me wrong, I think that Cardinal Burke is almost always right. What I don’t believe that his removal is for personal reasons by the Pope.

 

[LongingSoul]

Yet Cardinal Burke was ousted for expressing his thoughts which didn’t conform to Cardinal Kasper. That doesn’t sound like allowing for a “gammit of perspectives without restraint” to me. It sounds like only one opinion is being allowed, the opinion of Cardinal Kasper. The direction this seems to be going makes me think of Ezekiel 13 and Matthew 10 and 24.

The reality is that you don’t know why Cardinal Burke has been moved.

 

[pepipop]

Cardinal Burke seems like a passionate man who loves the Church. However, he has made some very confrontational statements towards Pope Francis. It seems as if he takes statements by our Holy Father in the worst possible way and uses them to garner support for himself. The best way to handle a disagreement is in private, not through the media mouthpiece. Perhaps the assignment in Malta will give him time to reflect and find a better way to communicate his concerns with his boss.

Is there anyone here who could badmouth their boss in public and get away with it?

Nope, it would be P45 time!

 

[JRRTFAN]

isn’t number 2 man chair of CDF where pope Benedict used to be during Pope John Paul II era? How do Vatican offices rank?

I thought the Apostolic Signatura was as high a legislative or decision making entity as you could go before you got to the Pope. I could be wrong, I often am.

 

[One_point]

Cardinal Burke seems like a passionate man who loves the Church. However, he has made some very confrontational statements towards Pope Francis. It seems as if he takes statements by our Holy Father in the worst possible way and uses them to garner support for himself. The best way to handle a disagreement is in private, not through the media mouthpiece. Perhaps the assignment in Malta will give him time to reflect and find a better way to communicate his concerns with his boss.

Is there anyone here who could badmouth their boss in public and get away with it?

but this is a wrong view of the church. the only boss in the church is Jesus. Yes there are leaders but they don’t become bosses as if they own the church or something. Cardinal Burke has criticized the Pope not for heresy but for silence. he has not bad mouthed him. And the church is not the property of the pope, it belong to Christ and pope like other Bishops is a servnt. sometimes a pope can be publicly criticized precisely because of his office and the influene it has. that why st Paul had to publicly criticize St. Peter when his passive support of heretics was causing scandal for gentile converts. I as a lay person am scandalized by His Holiness’ silence and would appreciate guidance.

 

[pepipop]

:thumbsup:Oh, I know it is - and used in Ireland too, as I’m sure you well know.

The term P45 is used in British slang as a metonym for termination of employment. The equivalent slang term in the United States is pink slip.

 

[pepipop]

but this is a wrong view of the church. the only boss in the church is Jesus. Yes there are leaders but they don’t become bosses as if they own the church or something. Cardinal Burke has criticized the Pope not for heresy but for silence. he has not bad mouthed him. And the church is not the property of the pope, it belong to Christ and pope like other Bishops is a servnt. sometimes a pope can be publicly criticized precisely because of his office and the influene it has. that why st Paul had to publicly criticize St. Peter when his passive support of heretics was causing scandal for gentile converts. I as a lay person am scandalized by His Holiness’ silence and would appreciate guidance.

Who did Jesus hand the keys of the Church to? You could refer to Jesus as the Chairman and the Pope as the CEO.

 

[One_point]

Who did Jesus hand the keys of the Church to? You could refer to Jesus as the Chairman and the Pope as the CEO.

Unfortunately, the church is not a corporation. it is a heavenly kingdom with a heavenly king. the CEO is not a servant to anyone but bishops are servants first. because there is only one king. the keys are with the Pope that is our faith which I will not deny. but the pope does not own the house or the flock or the kingdom. and he does not exercise the power of keys alone. if you read the catechism. the keys are exercised by bishops together in union with pope who is the point of unity. that why we have synod. the pope is not a boss. in fact there is no divine office of a pope. the pope is the head bishop. hes not another office above thato bishop but the bishop where unity of all the bishops is anchored. just imagine if st peter thought that he was the boss of st paul. no way. they are all servants of the same boss but they have different duties depending on the situation.

 

[LongingSoul]

:thumbsup:Oh, I know it is - and used in Ireland too, as I’m sure you well know.

The term P45 is used in British slang as a metonym for termination of employment. The equivalent slang term in the United States is pink slip.

In Aus. we’ve adopted the American version ie. pink slip… but I believe in China if you got the ‘stir fried squid’, you’ve got the sack. I’d love to know how that one started.

 

[One_point]

the poster who said that cardinal burke cannot get away with badmouthing “his boss” in public is basically making it seem like these are hired servants of pope francis instead of hired servants of Jesus Christ. The Pope has authority but he’s not the boss in the sense that the people there are working for him rather than with him or even under him.

 

[jilly4ski]

I didn’t make any comment on the Relatio. Cardinal Burke has made unusual comments attacking others all week and this news may explain some of it.
-g

A lot of assumptions go into this accusation that he is “lashing out” at people this week. Do you have any links that can back this up, so we can judge if he is “lashing out” against “others” or if he is just speaking to the issues that are relevant right now, during the synod.

 

[LongingSoul]

the poster who said that cardinal burke cannot get away with badmouthing “his boss” in public is basically making it seem like these are hired servants of pope francis instead of hired servants of Jesus Christ. The Pope has authority but he’s not the boss in the sense that the people there are working for him rather than with him or even under him.

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and by virtue of his role as successor of St Peter he is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth. There is a distinct heirarchy in the Church and the Pope has supreme authority in defining all matters of faith and morals we are asked by Christ to listen and obey those teachings.

 

[One_point]

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and by virtue of his role as successor of St Peter he is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth. There is a distinct heirarchy in the Church and the Pope has supreme authority in defining all matters of faith and morals we are asked by Christ to listen and obey him.

And he is not a boss but a servant just like all bishops, thank you. Who has said he should be disobeyed? cardinal burke has said he will go where he is sent. it those here who are saying he should not be criticized at all by other prelates who must show us where they get their belief. is it from the Bible?

 

[One_point]

I do not see badmouthing but an honest comment about the effect of the popes silence. A company works for profit. the church works for souls. the pope’s silence can have positive and negative effects on millions of souls. telling us cardinal burke must not say publicly that the pope should speak is forgetting the church is a very public thing. there are many who are encouraged by such a public statement of a prelate who would otherwise be scandalzed.

 

[lakotak]

Could it be that the Pope figures if he does break his silence, at this point, it could have an influence on the discussions within the Synod that he said he does not want restrained, but open and frank?

 

[LongingSoul]

I do not see badmouthing but an honest comment about the effect of the popes silence. A company works for profit. the church works for souls. the pope’s silence can have positive and negative effects on millions of souls. telling us cardinal burke must not say publicly that the pope should speak is forgetting the church is a very public thing. there are many who are encouraged by such a public statement of a prelate who would otherwise be scandalzed.

The Pope set out the parameters of the synod in his opening speech. He was prepared for frank and open contributions from the voices of living experience within parishes around the world.

"A basic general condition is this: to speak clearly. No one must say: “This can’t be said; he will think of me this way or that …” It is necessary to say everything that is felt with parrhesia. After the last Consistory (February 2014), in which there was talk of the family, a Cardinal wrote to me saying: too bad that some Cardinals didn’t have the courage to say some things out of respect for the Pope, thinking, perhaps, that the Pope thought something different. This is not good; this is not synodality, because it is necessary to say everything that in the Lord one feels should be said, with human respect, without fear. And, at the same time, one must listen with humility and receive with an open heart what the brothers say. Synodality will be exercised with these two attitudes.

Therefore, I ask you, please, for these attitudes of brothers in the Lord: to speak with parrhesia and to listen with humility.

And do so with much tranquillity and peace, because the Synod always unfolds cum Petro et sub Petro, and the Pope’s presence is the guarantee for all and protection of the faith."

zenit.org/en/articles/synod14-full-text-of-pope-francis-opening-words

He is there to listen at this synod and as he said, his presence there as Pope “is the guarantee for all and protection of the faith”. I believe that.

 

[One_point]

The Pope set out the parameters of the synod in his opening speech. He was prepared for frank and open contributions from the voices of living experience within parishes around the world.

"A basic general condition is this: to speak clearly. No one must say: “This can’t be said; he will think of me this way or that …” It is necessary to say everything that is felt with parrhesia. After the last Consistory (February 2014), in which there was talk of the family, a Cardinal wrote to me saying: too bad that some Cardinals didn’t have the courage to say some things out of respect for the Pope, thinking, perhaps, that the Pope thought something different. This is not good; this is not synodality, because it is necessary to say everything that in the Lord one feels should be said, with human respect, without fear. And, at the same time, one must listen with humility and receive with an open heart what the brothers say. Synodality will be exercised with these two attitudes.

Therefore, I ask you, please, for these attitudes of brothers in the Lord: to speak with parrhesia and to listen with humility.

And do so with much tranquillity and peace, because the Synod always unfolds cum Petro et sub Petro, and the Pope’s presence is the guarantee for all and protection of the faith."

zenit.org/en/articles/synod14-full-text-of-pope-francis-opening-words

He is there to listen at this synod and as he said, his presence there as Pope “is the guarantee for all and protection of the faith”. I believe that.

well, very good for you for believing that but it does not take away from what I have said about His Holiness or Cardinal Burke. To say that the Pope’s silence while Cardinal Kasper and the media go round placing all sorts of remarks on his lips in the public (some remarks clearly heretical) tthat this does no damage to the church is to live in denial. and to say those who urge him publicly to give clarification are wrong who know the damage makes no sense because we on the ground know the damage is not made up but true how many catholics have I read just this week alone who have their families their students their parishioners all insisting that now they all can get communion and gay rights is ok by the pope? most of us have given the pope all the benefit of the doubt from his appointment to all media scandals but at some point one needs reassurance that we are not the ones imposing on the pope by giving him the benefit of doubt. the Lord said to Peter “I have prayed for yu that your faith may not fail and when you have returned, confirm your brethren” It is this confirmation the brethren are seeking from our Pope from all over.

 

[Tigg]

I read the whole thread and still didn’t get what the demotion was until I read this in the link above:Yes, I guess that in most people’s eyes that that would indeed count as a demotion.

On the positive side, it has been suggested by many that with his new position, Card Burke will now have more time to evangelize and write. As disappointing as this news is to many, I cannot help but think the Lord has something greater for him. Protect him, O Lord and use Him to accomplish Your will.