Conservative Catholics Ready to Rumble with Dissenters over Homosexual Priest Ban

[m134e5]

Isidore_AK:

It truly doesn’t matter what your opinion is. Rome has already spoken on this issue- the American Bishops, in all of their wisdom , have decided to ignore it. wf-f.org/ReligiosorumInst.html#anchor15073541

To have no struggles with chastity whatsoever??? That’s basically what the document says. Come on…chastity is a struggle for millions of men- I don’t doubt there are more than just a few priests and seminarians- maybe even bishops in those numbers.

 

[Isidore_AK]

m134e5:

To have no struggles with chastity whatsoever??? That’s basically what the document says. Come on…chastity is a struggle for millions of men- I don’t doubt there are more than just a few priests and seminarians- maybe even bishops in those numbers.

What? You feel that they should be free to fantasize about their parishoners? Commit the dreaded ‘solitary sin’? Be adulterers? Pedophiles? Any struggles need to be conquered BEFORE becoming a priest.

A man can be chaste. A Priest MUST be chaste. If a man is struggling with chastity, then perhaps he should not commit himself to a life of chastity. If a Priest breaks his vows, then he needs to be removed from the Priesthood. Its quite simple. He makes certain promises when he joins the clergy, if he is unfaithful to the Church, then he should be removed.

 

[mlchance]

Here’s a thought: Why don’t people just comply with what the Church says? If the Church says homosexual men cannot be ordained, then they cannot. If the Church says homosexual men can be ordained, then they can.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[geezerbob]

Isidore_AK:

What? You feel that they should be free to fantasize about their parishoners? Commit the dreaded ‘solitary sin’? Be adulterers? Pedophiles? Any struggles need to be conquered BEFORE becoming a priest.

A man can be chaste. A Priest MUST be chaste. If a man is struggling with chastity, then perhaps he should not commit himself to a life of chastity. If a Priest breaks his vows, then he needs to be removed from the Priesthood. Its quite simple. He makes certain promises when he joins the clergy, if he is unfaithful to the Church, then he should be removed.

Let’s not confuse struggling with temptation with succumbing to it. No one, priest or layman, can control which evil thoughts Satan puts in our minds. What we can control is whether to dwell on them or not. Life is a struggle. If we demand absolute perfection in priests, we obviously will have no priests.

I had a cousin, RIP, who struggled with alcoholism. It created a lot of problems for him as a priest. When he finally dealt with it and, with the help of God and AA, conquered, not his desire to drink but the giving in to that desire, he spent his last thirty years as a sober and respected member of the clergy.

My :twocents:

 

[koda]

m134e5:

To have no struggles with chastity whatsoever??? That’s basically what the document says. Come on…chastity is a struggle for millions of men- I don’t doubt there are more than just a few priests and seminarians- maybe even bishops in those numbers.

I agree with you. It make no logical sense to say that only homosexual men are capable of sexual sin, nor that they are more likely to commit such.

 

[mlchance]

Isidore_AK:

A man can be chaste. A Priest MUST be chaste.

All people – not just priests – MUST be chaste.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[m134e5]

Isidore_AK:

What? You feel that they should be free to fantasize about their parishoners? Commit the dreaded ‘solitary sin’? Be adulterers? Pedophiles? Any struggles need to be conquered BEFORE becoming a priest.

A man can be chaste. A Priest MUST be chaste. If a man is struggling with chastity, then perhaps he should not commit himself to a life of chastity. If a Priest breaks his vows, then he needs to be removed from the Priesthood. Its quite simple. He makes certain promises when he joins the clergy, if he is unfaithful to the Church, then he should be removed.

Should a married man who looks at pornography once get divorced? Absolutely not- even though he does make the same types of promises when he gets married. ALL men MUST be chaste- priest or not. Priests are human too- they have struggles just like us, and chastity is undoubtedly one of them. Here is another question…at our baptism, we made a vow to reject sin- we sin every day, even though we made that vow- does that mean we shouldn’t be baptized?

Are you saying that someone who can’t control themselves should just get married? What if their spouse is injured and cannot have sex anymore? What about when they get old and their spouse is no longer visually attractive- but they themselves are still addicted to lust?

Sometimes those who struggle themselves are able to help others who struggle better than those who do not.

 

[estesbob]

m134e5:

What about those who have been faithful to the Church- those who have defended the Faith? Those are going to be the ones they’ll run to the media about. .

I dont think there is going to be an attempt to root out currently serving homosexual priests, as long as thet remain celibate, have been celbiate for a long period of time and dont “come out” they are not going to have any problems.

Those , however, who want to make a big deal about their past sexual behavior and about their atrraction for members of the same sex have no business remaining Priests. The same goes for any member of the clergy who openly defies the Churchs teacing on homosexuality.

 

[estesbob]

koda:

I agree with you. It make no logical sense to say that only homosexual men are capable of sexual sin, nor that they are more likely to commit such.

Study after study shows that a homosexual man is far more likely to commit a sexual sin thatn a heterosexual man. of course part of the reason is that every sexual act they particiapte in is a sexaul sin. the other fact is that homosexual men are far more promiscous than heterosexual men

 

[estesbob]

mlchance:

Here’s a thought: Why don’t people just comply with what the Church says? If the Church says homosexual men cannot be ordained, then they cannot. If the Church says homosexual men can be ordained, then they can.

– Mark L. Chance.

Works for me.

 

[m134e5]

Study after study shows that a homosexual man is far more likely to commit a sexual sin thatn a heterosexual man. of course part of the reason is that every sexual act they particiapte in is a sexaul sin.

Exactly- the part in bold makes a study like this invalid.

the other fact is that homosexual men are far more promiscous than heterosexual men

Where is the proof for this? “Common sense” really doesn’t hold much ground…

 

[m134e5]

Homosexual men can control themselves- many simply choose not to, and have formed a lifestyle that says “do whatever you want”. The priesthood is the opposite of that. That is why I say the priesthood could help a person who struggles with homosexuality- by helping them focus on God and on the Church rather than on themselves as the gay community preaches that they should do.

Those who have rejected the gay lifestyle in order to follow Christ, and have eventually heard and accepted a call to the priesthood should not be discouraged. I suppose it really is irrelevant- if God wants a man to be a priest, and he cooperates, he’ll be a priest- and no one will prevent it (God would not allow the Church to prevent someone from answering His call to them- so there would be no need for disobedience either).

 

[koda]

m134e5:

Homosexual men can control themselves- many simply choose not to, and have formed a lifestyle that says “do whatever you want”.

Let me guess, you’re a man, right? Well, I’m a woman and let me tell you from experience that I’ve had the displeasure of coming into contact with an incredible number of straight men who could not control themselves when it came to sex - you go out into the single life and practically every man you meet just wants to have sex with you - and some of the married ones too. I’ve run into this in school, at work, even getting my oil changed. And, no, I’m not some kind of sexy bombshell. Maybe I have a sympthetic face so they think I’m a pushover.

But in a way this really proves your theory. Men are more oversexed than women so when they get together, ! (I’ve heard theories that men are more oversexed than women and that this goes back to the days when life expectancy was short. The men were wired to impregnate all the women they could so the race could continue. Women, since they can only be pregnant every 9 mos., are not wired this way. That would explain why when men get together they sometimes go wild with sex. Men never seem to get a headache or be too tired.)

 

[mlchance]

m134e5:

Where is the proof for this [this being that homosexuals are far more promiscuous than heterosexuals]?

43% of white male homosexuals have had sex with 500 or more partners. 28% have had 1000 or more sexual partners. A.P. Bell & M.S. Weinberg, Homosexuality: A Study of Diversity among Men and Women (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978).

More modest results were found in “A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men” in The Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997). In this survey of 2583 homosexual men, “the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexual men] was 101-500.” Between 10.2 and 15.7 percent had more than 1000 lifetime sexual partners. Only 2.7 percent of older homosexual men report only one sexual partner in their lifetime.

Similar studies note that “few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners” (M. Pollak, “Male Homosexuality,” Western Sexuality (1985). That “all [homosexual male] couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships” (D. P. McWhirter & A. M. Mattison, The Male Couple (1984).

The journal AIDS (17, 2003) found in a study among homosexual men in the Netherlands found that homosexual men without a “steady partner” acquired “casual partners” at a rate of 22 per year. Those with a “steady partner” acquired “casual partners” at a rate of 8 per year.

All of these rates are significantly higher than rates among heterosexuals. For example, The Social Organization of Sexuality (1994) showed that 75% of husbands never had sexual relations outside of marriage. While this rate of fidelity is still far from the ideal, it is of an entirely different order of fidelity compared to homosexual men, among whom fidelity is almost nonexistent.

Evidences can be multiplied.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Isidore_AK]

m134e5:

Should a married man who looks at pornography once get divorced? Absolutely not- even though he does make the same types of promises when he gets married. ALL men MUST be chaste- priest or not. Priests are human too- they have struggles just like us, and chastity is undoubtedly one of them. Here is another question…at our baptism, we made a vow to reject sin- we sin every day, even though we made that vow- does that mean we shouldn’t be baptized?

Priests are called to a higher standard than us regular ‘married men’. If they are ‘oversexed’ as one poster put it, then they should look into a different line of work. The call is not for the weak. Thats why they go through years of formation. The celebate life is not for everyone. Just like the Marines or the Army…not everyone can hack it, and we don’t want the ones who try but fail to stick around. There is no room for failure.

m134e5:

Are you saying that someone who can’t control themselves should just get married? What if their spouse is injured and cannot have sex anymore? What about when they get old and their spouse is no longer visually attractive- but they themselves are still addicted to lust?

I believe that thats what St. Paul said…(1 Corinthians, ch. 7)

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

m134e5:

Sometimes those who struggle themselves are able to help others who struggle better than those who do not.

They need to conquer their struggles before becoming Priests, or they have no business being there.

 

[snoopy]

estesbob:

I dont think there is going to be an attempt to root out currently serving homosexual priests, as long as thet remain celibate, have been celbiate for a long period of time and dont “come out” they are not going to have any problems.

Those , however, who want to make a big deal about their past sexual behavior and about their atrraction for members of the same sex have no business remaining Priests. The same goes for any member of the clergy who openly defies the Churchs teacing on homosexuality.

This sounds like a "don’t ask, don’t tell"policy to me. I wonder how well that works. Just curious.

 

[snoopy]

mlchance:

Here’s a thought: Why don’t people just comply with what the Church says? If the Church says homosexual men cannot be ordained, then they cannot. If the Church says homosexual men can be ordained, then they can.

– Mark L. Chance.

The problem is that definition is not clear. What if they are celibate? What if they had an encounter 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 1 year ago? What if they are already in the priesthood, or are a bishop or cardinal? Where do you draw the line. The problem is that the statement is not specific and it very much needs to be.

 

[fix]

snoopy:

The problem is that definition is not clear. What if they are celibate? What if they had an encounter 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 3 years ago, 1 year ago? What if they are already in the priesthood, or are a bishop or cardinal? Where do you draw the line. The problem is that the statement is not specific and it very much needs to be.

Apparently the new document says if the tendencies are transitory and the man is “clear” of them for at least three years before ordination to the diaconate, then it may be permissible.

To me that means no tendencies. Not simply celibacy, but no inclination anymore.

 

[estesbob]

snoopy:

This sounds like a "don’t ask, don’t tell"policy to me. I wonder how well that works. Just curious.

It will work very well if it is enforced.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Rumble? Are we really looking for a fight? Is this the pastoral approach to which we are called? Do we really want people to schism over this? Aren’t we called to bring them into a better understanding and adherence of Catholic Teaching? Isn’t there enough pain and suffering becuase of the Reformation and the now 40,000 distinct denominations in the U.S.? Think of all the progress the Church has made on abortion over the last ten years when our Pope began to catechise and preach on this issue. I’m ecstatic that the Vatican and USCCB are beginning to grapple with this issue and they appear to be doing it with the same pastoral approach employed by JPII on abortion.

I’m waiting for this type of statement to be made by a Priest. When we make statements on this issue, remember that this person is out there. Christian charity would require that we consider this person when we make statements that might be interpreted as harsh and uncharitable.

I have been a celibate Priest for over 10 years. Prior to entering the seminary, because of factors within and beyond my control, I allowed a sinful attraction to other men to develop. I even sinfully participated in these unholy acts. But, fortunately for me, through prayer and contempletive discernment, I came to understand the gravity of this sinful attraction to other men. After years of offering up to God my temptation and suffering in prayer and multiple tortured periods of Confession and failure, the Holy Spirit gave me the strength and fortitude to finally be able to live a chaste single life and in this celebacy, I was able to hear the call of God to the Priesthood.

I think the Church’s approach on seminarians with same sex attraction is prudent and measured. I personally know how hard overcoming this particular sinful nature is. It takes time for both the Priest candidate and the Church to be assured that the person has the personal resolve and recieved the Graces to suppress this sinful attraction for other men. I don’t deny that in moments of weakness that this sinful attraction doesn’t rear its ugly head. But I have the graces to reject and repel these impulses because I know they aren’t of God but of Satan. I’m a living example that with good spiritual direction, a dedication of my God-given will, and the graces that come to me by living a sacramental Catholic life that it can be done. My God is truly and awesome God

Additionally, I think that the faithful need to keep in mind the pastoral obligation the Church has to men and women who have this difficult temptation to overcome. I am eternally grateful that the Church always welcomed me as a sinner to reform my life even when I was at the depth of my depravity. I shudder to think where I would be if all I had heard from the Church or faithful that I was inherently evil or treated as though I was a leper.