Conservative Episcopalians

[The_Old_Medic]

Active gay clergy as a reason to leave TEC has always been a puzzle to me. There could be closeted gay clergy in the Catholic Church engaged in homosexual relationships. The only difference in that case would be they are keeping it a secret.

No, the difference is, the Anglican Communion actively encourages actively gay ministers, and openly ordains them as priests and Bishops. The Catholic Church will refuse to ordain an actively gay man.

No church could possibly be held responsible for a secret that a person did not disclose before ordination. However, I believe that any person that did this would be guilty of a grave mortal sin, and each day that they did not disclose this information, they would be sinning again.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

There are two open homosexual bishops in the Anglican Communion. Both are in the Episcopal Church in the USA. It is wrong to state that the whole Anglican Communion actively encourages gay clergy. Great swathes of the Anglican Communion are far less nuanced on the subject than the Catholic Church. Some of of the African churches are downright Biblical about the punishment for homosexuality.

You can’t let off the Catholic church so lightly. When there are whole communities of gay clergy (a seminary nicknamed “Notre Flame” by its staff and students, for example) would not escape the notice of anyone in the Catholic church hierarchy. They know about it.

No, the difference is, the Anglican Communion actively encourages actively gay ministers, and openly ordains them as priests and Bishops. The Catholic Church will refuse to ordain an actively gay man.

No church could possibly be held responsible for a secret that a person did not disclose before ordination. However, I believe that any person that did this would be guilty of a grave mortal sin, and each day that they did not disclose this information, they would be sinning again.

 

[manualman]

There are two open homosexual bishops in the Anglican Communion. Both are in the Episcopal Church in the USA. It is wrong to state that the whole Anglican Communion actively encourages gay clergy. Great swathes of the Anglican Communion are far less nuanced on the subject than the Catholic Church. Some of of the African churches are downright Biblical about the punishment for homosexuality.

You can’t let off the Catholic church so lightly. When there are whole communities of gay clergy (a seminary nicknamed “Notre Flame” by its staff and students, for example) would not escape the notice of anyone in the Catholic church hierarchy. They know about it.

Yes and no. The catholic church certainly can’t brag about how well its members adhere to church teaching. But at least in the catholic church it is pretty easy to find out what the church actually TEACHES. I’m aware of zero catholic bishops in good standing that publicly and formally endorse homosexual behavior. You got any? Remember, teaching doesn’t work via implication.

We have and always will have some bad apple leaders in terms of how they behave and what they tolerate. But again, at least we always know that sinful behavior will never penetrate to the level of doctrine.

What seminary is nicknamed “Notre Flame?” Is this a current thing or a 70s/80s thing? I’m curious.

 

[cara1]

Somehow I never thought that I would consider myself “conservative”, but I suppose that is where I am right now.

I am doing a lot of thinking about the ordinariate. I am inclined toward it, but of course I am not Catholic yet. I hope the ordinariate will prove to be more than a haven for wandering Anglicans. I hope it will serve as a bridge toward greater unity among Christians.

But I have to jump over a few issues that frankly are troubling me.

These are the usual non-Catholic issues, such as the Papacy and the divine bureaucracy in Rome, the Marian doctrines (I really don’t have a problem with them, but I frankly need to understand them better). I am put off by the idea that I have to assent to the nullity of Anglican orders. I don’t like that one bit.

AND FINALLY… why do Catholics always say Aymen instead of Amen. There aren’t any Catholic scholars telling us that Ay-men is the proper pronunciation, are there?

Um, I think it’s Hebrew, and correctly pronounced “ah- MAIN”

 

[manualman]

Hehe. Ay-men doesn’t bug me though I’m an Ah-men guy myself.

What drives me up the wall are the evangelicals who sing “Hose-Ann-Ah” instead of Hose-On-Ah".

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Snatch this pebble from my hand and you will be a Shaolin master!

Again, well done, grasshopper.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Careful, Medic, the majority of the Anglican Communion does NOT endorse homosexuality privately or for clergy. The Episcopal Church and a few others in the world are liberal like this but the overwhelming majority do not. This is one main reason Anglican Realignment is taking place.

No, the difference is, the Anglican Communion actively encourages actively gay ministers, and openly ordains them as priests and Bishops. The Catholic Church will refuse to ordain an actively gay man.

No church could possibly be held responsible for a secret that a person did not disclose before ordination. However, I believe that any person that did this would be guilty of a grave mortal sin, and each day that they did not disclose this information, they would be sinning again.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

Yes and no. The catholic church certainly can’t brag about how well its members adhere to church teaching. But at least in the catholic church it is pretty easy to find out what the church actually TEACHES. I’m aware of zero catholic bishops in good standing that publicly and formally endorse homosexual behavior. You got any? Remember, teaching doesn’t work via implication.

We have and always will have some bad apple leaders in terms of how they behave and what they tolerate. But again, at least we always know that sinful behavior will never penetrate to the level of doctrine.

What seminary is nicknamed “Notre Flame?” Is this a current thing or a 70s/80s thing? I’m curious.

I like the word you chose - TEACHES. Thats the argument I use to my EC family members. I say I can’t go along with a church that teaches that it is not a sin to be actively homosexual where as my RC teaches that it is a sin. Sure there are many actively homosexual priest in the RC (according to Fr Cutie) but th church teaches it is a sin. I’m always asking does the Episcopal Church believe there is such a thing called sin?

Of course when my EC family says they don’t judge others (referring to homosexual lifestyles in the church) it always makes me feel like I am a bad person. I always feel really guilty and want to be more like them. How crazy is that

 

[GKC]

Snatch this pebble from my hand and you will be a Shaolin master!

I met David Carradine, a couple of times.

GKC

 

[estesbob]

I should have clarified EC in the USA … a few of my family members stay because they say they do not care if there are actively homosexual clergy – they are there to worship the Lord not care what everyone else is doing.

My question for them is if their Church can be so wroing about homosexuality how can you trust the other doctrines that make the EC unique?

My sister once told me she didnt care if Mary had other children or not. i asked her if the Catholic Church was wrong about this how could she trust them when they preached the Ressurection. She had no answer.

 

[estesbob]

Active gay clergy as a reason to leave TEC has always been a puzzle to me. There could be closeted gay clergy in the Catholic Church engaged in homosexual relationships. The only difference in that case would be they are keeping it a secret.

No-the difference is one is doing so with the full approval of their Church-the other is sinning in private and will be dismissed if their sin becomes puplic.

 

[estesbob]

Hehe. Ay-men doesn’t bug me though I’m an Ah-men guy myself.

What drives me up the wall are the evangelicals who sing “Hose-Ann-Ah” instead of Hose-On-Ah".

bleive ther eis a move in the US to make it Aperson…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Boy that dude died in a bad way…

I met David Carradine, a couple of times.

GKC

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Yes, there is a difference between a church accepting homosexuality and the behavior of a church’s members. However when an institution tacitly supports homosexuality by studied inattention to the problem it presents, it comes perilously close to accepting it.

What seminary is nicknamed “Notre Flame?” Is this a current thing or a 70s/80s thing? I’m curious.

Notre Dame in New Orleans. St. Mary’s in Baltimore was called the “Pink Palace”.

see this articlepolitics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976893076

 

[CMatt25]

Exactly. Thats always the argument in my family. We can always tell when the religion argument is on its way. Unfortunately, its usually at a Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner. … “whats worse actively gay clergy or priests raping little boys?” that always sends me over the edge.

Wait till they ask you what’s worse active gay clergy, priests raping litle boys, or Apostolic successors moving the rapists from parish to parish.

 

[CMatt25]

My question for them is if their Church can be so wroing about homosexuality how can you trust the other doctrines that make the EC unique?

My sister once told me she didnt care if Mary had other children or not. i asked her if the Catholic Church was wrong about this how could she trust them when they preached the Ressurection. She had no answer.

Things like abuse and corruption can question whether one should trust the Catholic faith on doctrine as well. By their fruits we shall know them Jesus told us.

 

[CMatt25]

No-the difference is one is doing so with the full approval of their Church-the other is sinning in private and will be dismissed if their sin becomes puplic.

You apparently missed Apostolic successors compounding the sin, Bob, by moving the sinful priests to other parishes. Even recently in the news once again. As up popped Philadelphia. But of course I guess one could say you have a point. As the Apostolic successors over the yrs I guess were trying to keep the sins private so as they not be made public. I guess the bottom line is when you live in a glass house you probably should not be the first to be casting stones. Especially when you believe that house is the one and only true Church of Christ.

 

[estesbob]

Yes, there is a difference between a church accepting homosexuality and the behavior of a church’s members. However when an institution tacitly supports homosexuality by studied inattention to the problem it presents, it comes perilously close to accepting it.

Notre Dame in New Orleans. St. Mary’s in Baltimore was called the “Pink Palace”.

see this articlepolitics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976893076

You can try to rationalize it all you want. The Episcopal Church has embraced the sin of Homosexual behavior as ok. The Catholic Church has not.

 

[guanophore]

Things like abuse and corruption can question whether one should trust the Catholic faith on doctrine as well. By their fruits we shall know them Jesus told us.

It can, if you are looking in the wrong place. It will be impossible to see Christ if you are focused on looking at sin.

Yes, by their fruits we shall know them, but this applies to individuals, not the the incorruptible Church. You see, such a formulation comes out of a deficient understanding of the nature of “Church”. The Church founded by Christ has Him as her Head, and the HS as her Soul. These divine elements are what keep her pure and infallible, not the sinful men who are part of her.

One must also be mindful that when one commits mortal sins, one automatically separates himself from communion with the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Exactly. Thats always the argument in my family. We can always tell when the religion argument is on its way. Unfortunately, its usually at a Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner. … “whats worse actively gay clergy or priests raping little boys?” that always sends me over the edge.

It should send you over. It is judging the Truth of the Church by the behaviors who depart from her.