Conservative Episcopalians

[guanophore]

Active gay clergy as a reason to leave TEC has always been a puzzle to me. There could be closeted gay clergy in the Catholic Church engaged in homosexual relationships. The only difference in that case would be they are keeping it a secret.

And this is a critical difference. We are instructed to flee from sin, and to avoid near occasions of sin. We can’t very well flee from secret sins of others, but if their sins are made manifest, we can certainly recognize them as such, and “drive out the wicked”.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Problem is though, guano, the bishops have NOT been “driving out the wicked” but rather “moving the wicked to new locations.” I think this is what CMatt is trying to point out. In Ireland, via the wikileaks, we found out that the Vatican told the Irish Church to hush hush and not tell authorities or the media what happened there to that huge population of boys, many deaf and with special needs, raped by priests mercilessly for years. They didn’t want scandal. In many situations bishops moved these predators throughout the U.S. and around the world only for it to happen again. This is not weeding out the wicked but giving them new hunting grounds. And it’s disgusting. Guys like Cardinal Law, who knew full well about this sickening abominable behavior were not disciplined but were slapped on the hand. In fact, John Paul II moved Cardinal Law to Rome and gave him his own lovely Cathedral to run as a “punishment.” The Church has not come down hard enough on this and in many cases made matters worse. In this area I agree with CMatt.

And this is a critical difference. We are instructed to flee from sin, and to avoid near occasions of sin. We can’t very well flee from secret sins of others, but if their sins are made manifest, we can certainly recognize them as such, and “drive out the wicked”.

 

[estesbob]

Problem is though, guano, the bishops have NOT been “driving out the wicked” but rather “moving the wicked to new locations.” I think this is what CMatt is trying to point out. In Ireland, via the wikileaks, we found out that the Vatican told the Irish Church to hush hush and not tell authorities or the media what happened there to that huge population of boys, many deaf and with special needs, raped by priests mercilessly for years. They didn’t want scandal. In many situations bishops moved these predators throughout the U.S. and around the world only for it to happen again. This is not weeding out the wicked but giving them new hunting grounds. And it’s disgusting. Guys like Cardinal Law, who knew full well about this sickening abominable behavior were not disciplined but were slapped on the hand. In fact, John Paul II moved Cardinal Law to Rome and gave him his own lovely Cathedral to run as a “punishment.” The Church has not come down hard enough on this and in many cases made matters worse. In this area I agree with CMatt.

Yes it was terrbile what some Bishops did and the Church has paid a terrbile price for these mens sin. But none of that has any bearing on the Truth.

If one takes the attitude you and Matt have to its logical conclusion you should not be a Christian at all.After all of the orignal disciples Peter denied him ,three times. Judas betrayed him, Thomas Doubted him, 11 ran when he was taken to be crucified, two aked him to give them a special place in heaven and Paul helped kill his followers. The Church* DID** not come down hard enough on this and in many cases made matters worse*.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well thats one way to look at it Bob.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

HI bob, Kindly don’t lump my “attitude” into your proposed conclusion. I never said that the Truth of the Catholic Church is compromised by these heinous sins. I never said I’m leaving Catholicism because of it. I never said the theology and moral teachings of Catholicism are now nullified because of the scandal. You’re assuming I drew that conclusion. Please re-read my posts and show me where I adopted such logic. I’m simply saying the credibility of the Church is compromised by the public. Credibility is harmed, not the concrete truth and substance of beliefs. For example, my grandmother might be sitting there smoking a cigarette telling me, “don’t smoke these things, they’ll kill ya! Emphasima, lung cancer, yellow teeth, and suffering will be your lot from smoking these suckers” as she takes a puff. Is she right? Yes. Is she very credible and a good role model or inspiring to make me NOT want to smoke? nope and I will probably do an eye-roll. But what she said is essentially true. You’re trying to say that my position is that she’s wrong about smoking. I’m not saying that. I’m saying, if you want people to not smoke, it’d help if you’d not smoke while you’re telling me not to.

Please don’t draw conclusions from things I haven’t even said, bob. My religion says “Catholic” not agnostic or atheist. If I felt that individual behavior trumped theology, you’d see “atheist” or “couldn’t care less” as my religion

Yes it was terrbile what some Bishops did and the Church has paid a terrbile price for these mens sin. But none of that has any bearing on the Truth.

If one takes the attitude you and Matt have to its logical conclusion you should not be a Christian at all.After all of the orignal disciples Peter denied him ,three times. Judas betrayed him, Thomas Doubted him, 11 ran when he was taken to be crucified, two aked him to give them a special place in heaven and Paul helped kill his followers. The Church* DID*** not come down hard enough on this and in many cases made matters worse.

 

[estesbob]

HI bob, Kindly don’t lump my “attitude” into your proposed conclusion. I never said that the Truth of the Catholic Church is compromised by these heinous sins. I never said I’m leaving Catholicism because of it. I never said the theology and moral teachings of Catholicism are now nullified because of the scandal. You’re assuming I drew that conclusion. Please re-read my posts and show me where I adopted such logic. I’m simply saying the credibility of the Church is compromised by the public. Credibility is harmed, not the concrete truth and substance of beliefs. For example, my grandmother might be sitting there smoking a cigarette telling me, “don’t smoke these things, they’ll kill ya! Emphasima, lung cancer, yellow teeth, and suffering will be your lot from smoking these suckers” as she takes a puff. Is she right? Yes. Is she very credible and a good role model or inspiring to make me NOT want to smoke? nope and I will probably do an eye-roll. But what she said is essentially true. You’re trying to say that my position is that she’s wrong about smoking. I’m not saying that. I’m saying, if you want people to not smoke, it’d help if you’d not smoke while you’re telling me not to.

Please don’t draw conclusions from things I haven’t even said, bob. My religion says “Catholic” not agnostic or atheist. If I felt that individual behavior trumped theology, you’d see “atheist” or “couldn’t care less” as my religion

Sorry-I thought I was replying to someone else!

 

[estesbob]

HI bob, Kindly don’t lump my “attitude” into your proposed conclusion. I never said that the Truth of the Catholic Church is compromised by these heinous sins. I never said I’m leaving Catholicism because of it. I never said the theology and moral teachings of Catholicism are now nullified because of the scandal. You’re assuming I drew that conclusion. Please re-read my posts and show me where I adopted such logic. I’m simply saying the credibility of the Church is compromised by the public. Credibility is harmed, not the concrete truth and substance of beliefs. For example, my grandmother might be sitting there smoking a cigarette telling me, “don’t smoke these things, they’ll kill ya! Emphasima, lung cancer, yellow teeth, and suffering will be your lot from smoking these suckers” as she takes a puff. Is she right? Yes. Is she very credible and a good role model or inspiring to make me NOT want to smoke? nope and I will probably do an eye-roll. But what she said is essentially true. You’re trying to say that my position is that she’s wrong about smoking. I’m not saying that. I’m saying, if you want people to not smoke, it’d help if you’d not smoke while you’re telling me not to.

Please don’t draw conclusions from things I haven’t even said, bob. My religion says “Catholic” not agnostic or atheist. If I felt that individual behavior trumped theology, you’d see “atheist” or “couldn’t care less” as my religion

I am as upset with the way the Church handled this as you are. i not only spoke to my Pastor aboutit I even met with the Bishop. My response was more directed to Matt. Sorry if you felt I was doubting your Faith.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No worries, Bob. What did your bishop and pastor tell you?

I am as upset with the way the Church handled this as you are. i not only spoke to my Pastor aboutit I even met with the Bishop. My response was more directed to Matt. Sorry if you felt I was doubting your Faith.

 

[estesbob]

No worries, Bob. What did your bishop and pastor tell you?

Bishop was very blunt about how upset he was about it. He had always had a zero tolerance policy-in fact he had an assistant at our Parish arrested and led from the rectory in handcuffs after a credible allegation. Both of them told me it was handled terribly and the Vatican was working to adress the issue.

The Church bought this on themselves and gave our enemies an opportunity to attack us. It is unknown how many people left the faith over this BUT the gates of hell will not prevail!

 

[CMatt25]

It can, if you are looking in the wrong place. It will be impossible to see Christ if you are focused on looking at sin.

Yes, by their fruits we shall know them, but this applies to individuals, not the the incorruptible Church. You see, such a formulation comes out of a deficient understanding of the nature of “Church”. The Church founded by Christ has Him as her Head, and the HS as her Soul. These divine elements are what keep her pure and infallible, not the sinful men who are part of her.

One must also be mindful that when one commits mortal sins, one automatically separates himself from communion with the Church.

Which is exactly why I look beyond the individuals.

 

[CMatt25]

And this is a critical difference. We are instructed to flee from sin, and to avoid near occasions of sin. We can’t very well flee from secret sins of others, but if their sins are made manifest, we can certainly recognize them as such, and “drive out the wicked”.

Or Guan as Gurney mentioned Bernard Law was driven to Rome to be put in charge of a basilica.

 

[CMatt25]

My response was more directed to Matt.

Your response to Gurney was, “If one takes the attitude you and Matt have to its logical conclusion you should not be a Christian at all.” Don’t worry Bob. I can have my Catholic identity driven away here. But rest assured there’s no way Bob, you or anyone are going to drive me away from Christianity.

 

[gamewell45]

For those of you that are conservative, and knowing the current state of the EC, have you any thoughts of leaving your religion or do you love your church and willing to stay through the changes?

Looking forward to hearing your comments as I have family members in the Episcopal Church as well.

Thanks!

I’m a cradle Episcopalian and will most likely die one. While I don’t agree with some of what they do, I’ll work from within to make changes that I think are in line with what Jesus would do.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There are many people who feel that way, Game. I know plenty of Episcopalians, especially in the South, who have such sentiment. I happen to agree more with ACNA but their stubborn and foolish refusal to confront women’s ordination and squash it is destroying them, too.

I’m a cradle Episcopalian and will most likely die one. While I don’t agree with some of what they do, I’ll work from within to make changes that I think are in line with what Jesus would do.

 

[JohnnyReb]

I reading this discussion, my thoughts were that we all need to stop casting stones at each other. Its not constructive. The Episcopal church certainly has its problems. It is upsetting seeing how the Vatican handled the abuse that was going on in some churches. We should be praying for each other and lifting each other up in all this. He who is without sin can cast the first stone.

 

[guanophore]

Which is exactly why I look beyond the individuals.

This makes a good story, CMatt, but if this were true, you would not be listing out the sins of individuals, and refraining from attending Mass because the priest made comments you did not like.

A person who goes to Mass to meet Jesus in the Eucharist will not be driven away by objectionable comments of the priest during the homily.

Wait till they ask you what’s worse active gay clergy, priests raping litle boys, or Apostolic successors moving the rapists from parish to parish.

Things like abuse and corruption can question whether one should trust the Catholic faith on doctrine as well. By their fruits we shall know them Jesus told us.

You apparently missed Apostolic successors compounding the sin, Bob, by moving the sinful priests to other parishes. Even recently in the news once again. As up popped Philadelphia. But of course I guess one could say you have a point. As the Apostolic successors over the yrs I guess were trying to keep the sins private so as they not be made public. I guess the bottom line is when you live in a glass house you probably should not be the first to be casting stones. Especially when you believe that house is the one and only true Church of Christ.

Or Guan as Gurney mentioned Bernard Law was driven to Rome to be put in charge of a basilica.

It appears, CMatt,that you do not realize that all these posts indicate that you are looking at the shortcomings of individuals. You are allowing the failings of these “individuals” to turn you away from the Catholic faith. These posts give absolutely NO indication that you are "looking beyond the individuals’. If you think you are doing that, you are only kidding yourself.

 

[guanophore]

Your response to Gurney was, “If one takes the attitude you and Matt have to its logical conclusion you should not be a Christian at all.” Don’t worry Bob. I can have my Catholic identity driven away here. But rest assured there’s no way Bob, you or anyone are going to drive me away from Christianity.

I agree with you, CMatt, that no one can drive you away from Christianity. I think at some point, though, you will come to realize that you have long since left the Christianity that Jesus brought to the world. You are living inside a fabrication of your own making, that you call Christianity, that is humanistically based.

 

[CMatt25]

This makes a good story, CMatt, but if this were true, you would not be listing out the sins of individuals, and refraining from attending Mass because the priest made comments you did not like.

A person who goes to Mass to meet Jesus in the Eucharist will not be driven away by objectionable comments of the priest during the homily.

It appears, CMatt,that you do not realize that all these posts indicate that you are looking at the shortcomings of individuals. You are allowing the failings of these “individuals” to turn you away from the Catholic faith. These posts give absolutely NO indication that you are "looking beyond the individuals’. If you think you are doing that, you are only kidding yourself.

Guan, there is more than 1 parish to attend Mass. And I can also meet Jesus tonight when I pray. Jesus is not only present to me at Mass.

 

[CMatt25]

I agree with you, CMatt, that no one can drive you away from Christianity. I think at some point, though, you will come to realize that you have long since left the Christianity that Jesus brought to the world. You are living inside a fabrication of your own making, that you call Christianity, that is humanistically based.

So in other words you are now saying not only me but all here who are not Catholic are not part of the Christianity of Jesus?

 

[JohnnyReb]

So in other words you are now saying not only me but all here who are not Catholic are not part of the Christianity of Jesus?

I won’t speak for him but from some Catholics that is the impression that I get. I really don’t have a problem with them asserting as such if that is what they really believe. Of course they have the right to be wrong too.