Conservatives call on GOP leaders to step down

[Jeanne_S]

Yes, God allowed Obama to win in the same sense that he allows many horrible things to happen. It is part of God’s permissive will.

God never actively wills evil, but He permits evil for two reasons: free will and because He can bring a greater good out of evil.

Nailed it!

 

[estesbob]

Worth the read:

‘Intrinsic Evil’ & Public Policy: A Partisan Abuse of the Church’s Moral Teachings

“Adultery is both intrinsically evil and grave…and yet very few people are hankering to recover civil laws against adultery”

commonwealmagazine.org/%E2%80%98instrinsic-evil%E2%80%99-public-policy

So you believe there is a moral equivalency between adultery and killing children?

Also i dont recall either candidate or political party promoting unrestricted , taxayer funded adultery.

 

[Jeanne_S]

You seem confused: you’re the one claiming that Romney lied and Obama didn’t, but then you go on to say it’s not credible to call one side untruthful and not the other. Which is it?

Obama told a lot of untruths re Romney,his campaign was one of the filthiest,lowdown campaigns in recent history. As far as O’s being truthful about his plans for the USA,No he didn’t lie,he believes every word of his destructive ideology.

 

[estesbob]

How do protestants argue with Catholics over the same Bible?

The same way Catholics who voted for Obama try and justify their vote-personal interpertation trumps all.

 

[meltzerboy]

It is discouraging to think that the best the Republicans could come up with are:

G.W. Bush, Cheney, McCain, Palin, Romney, Ryan…

But then when you look at the other side:

Gore to Obama…

They are not doing any better.

I think what the R’s missed is that the center elects the President, not the right. The D’s don’t need to win the left, and the R’s don’t need to win the right. The winner of the election is the person who appeals more to the center.

You may be correct about the necessity to move toward the center, or the exact OPPOSITE may be required, that is, moving more toward the right. I tend to doubt the efficacy of the latter, however. The problem with candidates who move toward the center, though, is they may lose too much of their base, particularly if they are not able to articulate views that assure their base they have not virtually abandoned their conservative principles. This may have been one of Romney’s problems. Psychology teaches us that when events don’t turn out as expected, people tend to intensify their prior beliefs rather than making adjustments, since they have already invested too much time and effort in formulating those beliefs to be willing to relinquish them.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Nothing. So why keep arguing unless it’s an ego thing.

I think you are on to something,arguing for the sake of having the last word,

 

[CMatt25]

Wait, I thought that was your point??? You are confusing…

Deacon, don’t be confused. This thread is not about me or what is my church. It is about conservatives. And my point was if a baptized and or confirmed Catholic voted to re-elect our pro choice/SS marriage advocate Barack Obama as President of the United States and not the more conservative Romney, they are still a Catholic and have the right to consider themselves as such. In cases perhaps with an adjective such as non practicing or dissenting. At least according to the answers given by the Catholic Church and by yourself in your acceptance of OCAC. Be at peace.

 

[Jeanne_S]

You may be correct about the necessity to move toward the center, or the exact OPPOSITE may be required, that is, moving more toward the right. I tend to doubt the efficacy of the latter, however. The problem with candidates who move toward the center, though, is they may lose too much of their base, particularly if they are not able to articulate views that assure their base they have not virtually abandoned their conservative principles. This may have been one of Romney’s problems. Psychology teaches us that when events don’t turn out as expected, people tend to intensify their prior beliefs rather than making adjustments, since they have already invested too much time and effort in formulating those beliefs to be willing to relinquish them.

Then why even bother with two party system,if they are barely indistinguishable? If anything the Republicans /Conservatives need to move to the right,hold fast to the idiolgogy that half of this country live by.This election proved that trying to pander to the moderates is a futile effort.

 

[epan]

You may be correct about the necessity to move toward the center, or the exact OPPOSITE may be required, that is, moving more toward the right. I tend to doubt the efficacy of the latter, however. The problem with candidates who move toward the center, though, is they may lose too much of their base, particularly if they are not able to articulate views that assure their base they have not virtually abandoned their conservative principles. This may have been one of Romney’s problems. Psychology teaches us that when events don’t turn out as expected, people tend to intensify their prior beliefs rather than making adjustments, since they have already invested too much time and effort in formulating those beliefs to be willing to relinquish them.

So, that is the challenge for the R’s, to retain the far right while appealing to more moderate voters. I suppose you could see the selection of Ryan as an attempt to appease the far right, and the portrayal of Romney as a moderate, as an attempt to draw the center vote. I think where he failed was that he forgot that he was supposed to appear to be moderate, and he kept veering off to the right in his speech, thereby alienating the center.

But I still think that threatening to gut medicare was the fatal error. That cost him Florida with the large retiree population. What was he thinking?

 

[meltzerboy]

Then why even bother with two party system,if they are barely indistinguishable? If anything the Republicans /Conservatives need to move to the right,hold fast to the idiolgogy that half of this country live by.This election proved that trying to pander to the moderates is a futile effort.

I agree with you. I think it’s a question of HOW MUCH a party–right or left–may move toward the center. What you say about moving more toward the right confirms what I stated above. This principle of intensifying one’s position in the face of disappointment or defeat was discussed by the famous social psychologist, Leon Festinger (whom I studied with), in his article titled “When Prophecy Fails.”

 

[meltzerboy]

So, that is the challenge for the R’s, to retain the far right while appealing to more moderate voters. I suppose you could see the selection of Ryan as an attempt to appease the far right, and the portrayal of Romney as a moderate, as an attempt to draw the center vote. I think where he failed was that he forgot that he was supposed to appear to be moderate, and he kept veering off to the right in his speech, thereby alienating the center.

But I still think that threatening to gut medicare was the fatal error. That cost him Florida with the large retiree population. What was he thinking?

Obama garnered close to 70% of the Jewish vote, only a slight drop from the 2008 election. The Jews in South Florida did not hand Obama the election since Florida was not the pivotal state in the election this time. But certainly seniors and near-seniors in Florida and elsewhere must have thought twice about voting for a candidate who advocated a private voucher program, given the current state of the economy and the perceived lack of integrity of the insurance industry.

 

[CMatt25]

So, that is the challenge for the R’s, to retain the far right while appealing to more moderate voters. I suppose you could see the selection of Ryan as an attempt to appease the far right, and the portrayal of Romney as a moderate, as an attempt to draw the center vote. I think where he failed was that he forgot that he was supposed to appear to be moderate, and he kept veering off to the right in his speech, thereby alienating the center.

But I still think that threatening to gut medicare was the fatal error. That cost him Florida with the large retiree population. What was he thinking?

It’s a challenge for both parties to appeal to both their base and the middle. Part of Romney’s problem imo was trying so hard for so many months to appeal to the extreme GOP conservative and Tea Party base, that even though he may have been attempting in his view to move more to the center near the end of the campaign, it was too little too late. He was already married to the extremism of the conservative base. He had a lot of problems though. Among them his behind closed doors comment about the 47% wasn’t helpful to him. The way things went down over the auto bailout and auto industry was not helpful to him in OH. It’s not a good thing when newspapers and auto companies have to come out and dispute what you are saying in your ads and yet you continue with the same message. I have no idea what he was thinkng about Medicare other than he had Paul Ryan and his voucher program and budget.plan running along side of him.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Obama garnered close to 70% of the Jewish vote, only a slight drop from the 2008 election. The Jews in South Florida did not hand Obama the election since Florida was not the pivotal state in the election this time. But certainly seniors and near-seniors in Florida and elsewhere must have thought twice about voting for a candidate who advocated a private voucher program, given the current state of the economy and the perceived lack of integrity of the insurance industry.

Republicans gained 50% in the Jewish vote. 14.3% of American Jews voted for Obama, 85% who live in Israel voted for Romney

Medicare did not hurt Romney with seniors in Florida

Exit polling in 2008 indicated that John McCain and running mate Sarah Palin won by a margin of 8 percentage points among Florida seniors (53 to 45 percent). Exit polling in 2012 indicates that Romney-Ryan more than doubled that margin — to 17 points (58 to 41 percent).

Romney’s other biggest gains in the Sunshine State, in relation to McCain, were among Floridians between the ages of 45 and 64 — the younger half of whom would have been among the first wave of Americans to experience the Romney-Ryan Medicare reforms firsthand. McCain lost among that group of voters by 5 points (52 to 47 percent); Romney won by 4 points (52 to 48 percent).

What’s more, when asked in exit polling who would do a better job of handling Medicare, Florida voters gave President Obama the edge over Romney by a meager 4 points — 50 to 46 percent — an enviable result for any Republican candidate. (That question wasn’t asked in 2008 exit polling.)

Perhaps Romney and Ryan had such success with Florida seniors (and with those within 20 years of becoming seniors) because, in the course of defending their proposed Medicare reforms, they launched a potent counterattack against Obamacare — highlighting its $716 billion Medicare raid. In fact, that counterattack was the only sustained offensive that Romney launched against Obamacare during the entire course of the campaign. If he had launched additional offensives against other parts of Obamacare — such as its requirement that younger Americans buy federally approved health insurance at inflated prices, so as to help subsidize the insurance of older (generally wealthier) Americans — perhaps he would have won over more voters under the age of 45 and taken the state.

weeklystandard.com/blogs/did-ryan-hurt-romney-florida_662150.html

 

[Tigg]

Well, you quoted paragraph 34 but you left out paragraphs 33, 35 and 36, were the Bishops make it explicitly clear that you may not vote for candidates that support an intrinsic evil by appealing to their positions on other lesser issues like feeding the poor, or fixing immigration, etc.

There is only one scenario where you may vote for a candidate that supports an intrinsic evil and that is when the other candidate also supports the same intrinsic evil (see paragraph 36). In this dilemna, you may choose to either 1. Not vote or 2. Vote for the candidate that will do the most to limit the intrinsic evil in question. But, you may not appeal to secondary issues (economy, immigration, etc.) in order to make the decision, not when an*** INTRINSIC ***evil is involved.

Obama supported and supports the INTRINSIC evil of abortion on demand (as well as homosexual marriage). That ruled him out as a viable choice for Catholics by default. You can’t appeal to any positive things he may or may not do on secondary issues (immigration, economy, ect.) when he already supports and INTRINSIC evil on demand. The USCCB makes this clear in their Faithful Citizenship guide, paragraph 35:

There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable
position may decide to vote for that candidate for other morally grave reasons.
Voting in this way would be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to
advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental
moral evil.

Obama supports a “fundamental moral evil” on demand so you can’t ignore his support for it by appealing to any good he may or may not do reagarding less fundamental evils like the poor and immigration, etc.

The only viable choice was Romney, but Catholics did not HAVE to vote for him since he also supported the intrinsic evil of abortion in cases of rape and incest.

Maybe it’s the word ***intrinsic ***they don’t understand!

 

[meltzerboy]

Republicans gained 50% in the Jewish vote. 14.3% of American Jews voted for Obama, 85% Jews who live in Israel voted for Romney

Medicare did not hurt Romney with seniors in Florida

weeklystandard.com/blogs/did-ryan-hurt-romney-florida_662150.html

I’m almost certain I saw different statistics regarding the senior Jewish vote in Florida. Maybe I was thinking of the Jewish vote in its totality. However, I yield to the poll mistress.

 

[CMatt25]

Adultery does not compare to Abortion, Adultery does not take an innocent life.

I’m starting to conclude from this thread that conservatives calling for GOP leaders to step down, may not realize that the electorate on the whole might not vote solely on abortion, or on outlawing it all cases including rape and incest, and not allowing a woman the right to choose a direct abortion to protect her own health and life, and do not place the emphasis on it that some Catholics do here.

 

[Tigg]

Well, that may be.

But notice: the Democrats consistently support intrinsic evil and they consistenly win; the Republicans consistently play the middle ground and lost in a big way.

You can never beat the Devil playing the Devil’s game. There are only two ways to win in politics: tell lies or tell the truth. Playing the middle is a losing strategy. Time will tell if the Republicans have learned their lesson but, personally, I think the Republican party is finished. Already Mr. Boehner is talking about compromising with the Democrats. Game over.

It used to be that the Republican party was the party of character and integrity and those running for public office did so out of commitment to serve their country. Now the GOP is just as riddled with corruption and scandal as the other guys and just as compromising when it comes to our best interests.

The problem as I see it, government would never have been allowed to get this big, nor this treacherous, if only We, the People, would have continued to place our Savior first. It is our betrayal that has led us here – we can only blame the government for so much.

To quote Karl Marx……

“Man is the god of man.”

 

[CMatt25]

I’m almost certain I saw different statistics regarding the senior Jewish vote in Florida. Maybe I was thinking of the Jewish vote in its totality. However, I yield to the poll mistress.

Meltzer, I know I saw a poll showing almost 70% of Jewish voters voted for Obama. No?

 

[meltzerboy]

Meltzer, I know I saw a poll showing almost 70% of Jewish voters voted for Obama. No?

I believe so, but that would include younger voters as well.

 

[Carlan]

In the event any of you are truly interested in any ones opinion other than your own, I would like to say that I believe many, many of us vote for our own party affiliation rather than the candidate.
Especially true for most posters in this thread, otherwise they would never have voted for Mr Romney and his position on abortion for he has stated ,since being accepted as your party’s nominee, that he is not against abortion in some circumstances.
Peace, Carlan