Contact With Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith

[RonPrice]

Well, after my initial post this thread has progressed in several directions. I have been a Baha’i for more than 50 years. My parents and I joined the Baha’i Faith in Canada back in the 1950s. I have remained a Baha’i for over half a cnetury for many reasons. My website is at: ronpriceepoch.com/ for those who want some idea of the person at this “Catholic Answers Forum” who is not a Catholic.-Ron:thumbsup:

 

[TexanKnight]

I was talking to a Muslim who said Bahai’s are to Muslims what Mormons are to Catholics.

 

[Jerusha]

I was talking to a Muslim who said Bahai’s are to Muslims what Mormons are to Catholics.

I subscribe to the idea that Bahai is a step upward from Islam. Mormonism is a fall DOWNWARD from Catholicism. There is something mystical that Bahai developed at the same time Mormonism developed. I think it would be easier for a Bahai to convert to Catholicism than for a Mormon to convert to Catholicism. Everyone has their own journey, but all roads lead to Rome.

 

[SteveVH]

And while we worship God as One in totality, we accept that the Bible reveals some sort of “disctinction” in this oneness. We would never say that we worship a single God divided into three parts, but we don’t believe the Trinity is completely wrong. We think it is an attempt to understand the division presented in the Bible. As Bahá’ís we believe in God and the Holy Spirit. The metaphor Abdu’l-Bahá used was like a sun and a mirror. God is the sun; its rays are the Holy Spirit; and the Mirror is the Manifestation. The Holy Spirit flows from God to the Manifestation, empowering Him and allowing Him to represent God on Earth. We Worship God through the Manifestation. And we, too, are mirrors, although imperfect.

You should be made aware that you have mistated the Christian position concerning the Trinity. We do not worship a God “divided into three parts.”. We worship a God who is made up of three distinct Persons who share the same being. There is no division or separation between the Persons. Where the Father is, there also is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there also is the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. They are a unity, not a division.

What bothers me about any religion which purports to believe in Jesus Christ without being Christian is this: The one thing we know for sure is that Christ was not just a prophet, or a good teacher. He was either who he said he was, the Son of God, begotten, not made, or he was not. If he was who he said he was, then you must believe what he said. If he was not who he said he was, then he was a liar and pulled off the biggest fraud ever known to humanity. There is no grey area here. You cannot simply call him a prophet and pick and choose what you wish to believe about him. No other “prophet” falls into this category because no other prophet ever claimed to be God in the flesh. If he was who he said he was, then you must follow him and only him. If he was not, then you must reject him completely because he was a false prophet.

Now I realize that this sounds rather harsh, but I think if you look at the question objectively you will have to come to the same conclusion. Christ is the fulness of God’s revealtion of himself to mankind. He is the Alpha and Omega and we need not look any futher. As the Apostels said, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life.” So we must all answer the question. “Who do you say that I am?” If you conclude that he was speaking the truth, then follow him, not someone else claiming enlightenment. They are a dime a dozen and they do not have holes in their hands and feet.

 

[arthra]

Since the issue of parallels came up above as to whether the Baha’i Faith is more from a Muslim view like say Mormonism to Christianity as compared to Christianity is to Judaism …etc. I had a few observations to share.

One is that Mormonism claims to be Christian… I would suggest Ahmadiyyih as a version of Islam may be a closer comparison here to the relationship of Mormonism to Christianity perhaps.

Baha’is and if you include the earlier name Babis have always had a separate identity from Islam from the beginning in terms of our own calendar…our scriptures and the early martyrs of our Faith…

Yes Qur’an is quoted as well as citations from the Gospels in our Writings and we respect and accept Muhammad as a Manifestation of God … We see the age of prophecy as “sealed” and the age of fulfillment begun with the Bab and Baha’u’llah…much as Christians see the old covenant as juxtaposed to the new covenant.

So there are more parallels I believe with the beginnings of Christianity and the beginnings of the Baha’i faith: Both emerged from older religions … Both emerged in a time of messianic expectation… Both had thousands of martyrs in the beginning… There are more parallels…

As to the Trinity I believe there are distinctions between the Christian doctrine and Baha’i belief… We also have no creedal statements of belief as you do in Christianity where they are recited and so forth. What Mirza19 stated above seems to be a fair summary:

The metaphor Abdu’l-Bahá used was like a sun and a mirror. God is the sun; its rays are the Holy Spirit; and the Mirror is the Manifestation. The Holy Spirit flows from God to the Manifestation, empowering Him and allowing Him to represent God on Earth. We Worship God through the Manifestation. And we, too, are mirrors, although imperfect.

What Abdul-Baha said was:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113

 

[CopticChristian]

I read with interest the thread here at Catholic Answers Forums in relation to the Baha’i Faith. I would encourage those who want to follow-up on their interest in this new world religion to go to the official international Baha’i website at: bahai.org. It has more information than “you can shake a stick at,” as they say. I have been a Baha’i for 52 years(in 2011).-Ron Price, Tasmania:thumbsup:

Ron,

You have been Bahai since age 15. I read much on your old and new website. I see that you are a prolific thinker and writer. I visited the Bahai website. I understand that the principles are unity of God, Religion and Mankind. One thing I did discover is that unlike Islam and Protestant thought there have been no divisions over time with leadership as is common. While I do not embrace Bahai as a new relligious belief I am interested in, I understand that you are steeped in Bahai and see your posting almost as Proselytizing as I see no question. Your subsequent posts also never ask a question.

 

[CopticChristian]

Since the issue of parallels came up above as to whether the Baha’i Faith is more from a Muslim view like say Mormonism to Christianity as compared to Christianity is to Judaism …etc. I had a few observations to share.

One is that Mormonism claims to be Christian… I would suggest Ahmadiyyih as a version of Islam may be a closer comparison here to the relationship of Mormonism to Christianity perhaps.

Baha’is and if you include the earlier name Babis have always had a separate identity from Islam from the beginning in terms of our own calendar…our scriptures and the early martyrs of our Faith…

Yes Qur’an is quoted as well as citations from the Gospels in our Writings and we respect and accept Muhammad as a Manifestation of God … We see the age of prophecy as “sealed” and the age of fulfillment begun with the Bab and Baha’u’llah…much as Christians see the old covenant as juxtaposed to the new covenant.

So there are more parallels I believe with the beginnings of Christianity and the beginnings of the Baha’i faith: Both emerged from older religions … Both emerged in a time of messianic expectation… Both had thousands of martyrs in the beginning… There are more parallels…

As to the Trinity I believe there are distinctions between the Christian doctrine and Baha’i belief… We also have no creedal statements of belief as you do in Christianity where they are recited and so forth. What Mirza19 stated above seems to be a fair summary:

The metaphor Abdu’l-Bahá used was like a sun and a mirror. God is the sun; its rays are the Holy Spirit; and the Mirror is the Manifestation. The Holy Spirit flows from God to the Manifestation, empowering Him and allowing Him to represent God on Earth. We Worship God through the Manifestation. And we, too, are mirrors, although imperfect.

What Abdul-Baha said was:

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 113

So it would be safe to say that the Bahai consider Joseph Smith to be a prophet.

 

[tritcher1988]

I read with interest the posts here in the last 7 weeks since my original post in this thread. The issues in many ways can not be sorted out in little boxes on a thread. A thread is just that—a thread—to discuss issues and subjects which have and will fill volumes.

For all of us, including myself, we need to know our religions more than we do. We all need to deal with what you might call “our absolutes”–our convictions–without invoking the wrath of the gods on those who do not share them and will never share them no matter how much writing and talking we do. Enlightened dialogue is essential in our war-torn world.-Ron Price, Australia

Please in your own words, RonPrice: Who is Jesus?

 

[Crdl2Grv]

From Vatican II document “Nostra Aetate”:

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men…" (Nostra Aetate)

My roommate during my freshman year of college was Baha’i. Not only that, we were (at the time) less than a few miles away from the Baha’i house of worship for North America, so there was a fairly extensive network of people of the Baha’i faith in the area. I spent some time touring the building, went out to a number of dinners w/ my roommate and his fellow Baha’is. Great group of really interesting people. I was perfectly comfortable in my faith so there was never any pressure to convert or excessive proselytizing on either my part or theirs.

Furthermore, my roommate was a ridiculously nice guy. One of the nicest, most generous, most forgiving people I have ever known. Great guy. He opened my eyes to a culture I otherwise never would have even known about. Lot of things I would have missed out on if I’d simply turned up my nose and sniffed, “Baha’i, huh? Just another false religion.”

 

[CopticChristian]

My roommate during my freshman year of college was Baha’i. Not only that, we were (at the time) less than a few miles away from the Baha’i house of worship for North America, so there was a fairly extensive network of people of the Baha’i faith in the area. I spent some time touring the building, went out to a number of dinners w/ my roommate and his fellow Baha’is. Great group of really interesting people. I was perfectly comfortable in my faith so there was never any pressure to convert or excessive proselytizing on either my part or theirs.

Furthermore, my roommate was a ridiculously nice guy. One of the nicest, most generous, most forgiving people I have ever known. Great guy. He opened my eyes to a culture I otherwise never would have even known about. Lot of things I would have missed out on if I’d simply turned up my nose and sniffed, “Baha’i, huh? Just another false religion.”

Crdl,

I have known Jews, Israelis, Zen, Unitarian, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Hari Krishna, TM and other practitioners. I don’t believe those that post saying “another false religion” are suggesting you turn your nose up. I rarely encountered any need to engage these people on their beliefs with a few exceptions. I find Ron Price posting here as an informational, look here, see what I have, I have been doing this since I was 15…etc. I have no interest in pursuing this route. I spent time evaluating religions. There is a video and book on this that I studied and I have read about other beliefs. Bahai holds no interest for me and I wish Ron well.

 

[arthra]

So it would be safe to say that the Bahai consider Joseph Smith to be a prophet.

Sorry if that was your impression from what I wrote…

No Joseph Smith is not considered a “prophet” by Baha’is.

“As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá’ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance. …”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, February 7, 1977)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 510)

 

[Michael85]

Baha’is believe that Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, and Muhammad were Messengers of God along with Jesus. However, they ignore the fact that these “messengers” taught completely different things which are not compatible.

For example - Buddha did not believe in a Supreme Being. Jesus and Muhammad taught that there is a Supreme Being (Jesus actually IS the Supreme Being).

Jesus taught that God is a Trinity and that He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, came down from heaven and became incarnate. Muslims deny both the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ.

Krishna (if he was even real) claimed to be God but also acknowledged the existence of other gods (Devas in Sanskrit). He taught that the soul is reincarnated into different bodies. Jesus and Muhammad taught that there is only one God and that the soul does not reincarnate.

Baha’is claim to accept all of them as Messengers of God, yet they deny essential things that these “messengers” taught in order to resolve the many contradictions in their messages as well as with the messages of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Baha’is essentially claim that they know what the “messengers” really taught better than those who follow those “messengers”. It is a false religion just like the other non-Christian religions, and Baha’is need to abandon such false beliefs and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’is believe that Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, and Muhammad were Messengers of God along with Jesus. However, they ignore the fact that these “messengers” taught completely different things which are not compatible.

For example - Buddha did not believe in a Supreme Being. Jesus and Muhammad taught that there is a Supreme Being (Jesus actually IS the Supreme Being).

Jesus taught that God is a Trinity and that He, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, came down from heaven and became incarnate. Muslims deny both the Trinity and the Divinity of Christ.

Krishna (if he was even real) claimed to be God but also acknowledged the existence of other gods (Devas in Sanskrit). He taught that the soul is reincarnated into different bodies. Jesus and Muhammad taught that there is only one God and that the soul does not reincarnate.

Baha’is claim to accept all of them as Messengers of God, yet they deny essential things that these “messengers” taught in order to resolve the many contradictions in their messages as well as with the messages of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Baha’is essentially claim that they know what the “messengers” really taught better than those who follow those “messengers”. It is a false religion just like the other non-Christian religions, and Baha’is need to abandon such false beliefs and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone for their salvation.

This was my point exactly, though I see that no one has responded to my previous post. I do not want to be uncharitable at all, but any faith that accepts conflicting doctrines as comprising “truth” drives me crazy. I also never seem to get an answer to what seems to be a fairly straight forward question. How do you believe all of these simultaneoulsy? I would hope that someone from the Bahai faith would at least address this issue.

My guess is that they do not embrace any of them completely, but rather pick and choose from each in order to form their own belief system, kind of like the way the Japanese make a car. You cannot claim Jesus as a prophet and at the same time reject him as the Son of God who said that “no one comes to the Father except through me”.

For these reasons, any faith along the lines of the Bahai faith would be the last place I would go to seek truth. It seems to me to be nothing but a conglomeration of contradiction.

 

[SteveVH]

We believe religion evolves just as language, culture, and man evolves.

This is my problem with the Bahai faith in a nutshell. I don’t think you really know what you believe and according to this statement your beliefs will change with the times. If that is not relativism I don’t know what is. Christianity is based upon revealed truth which cannot change. Our understanding of that truth may grow, but the truth remains. One cannot accept Jesus and at the same time Buddah, Mohamed and every other self-proclaimed prophet that comes down the pike because truth cannot conflict with truth.

For example, Christ claimed to be the Son of God. Muslims reject this. How do you then embrace both of them simultaneoulsy? You are forced to pick and choose, according to your own appetite, those things which they said that you happen to agree with while rejecting those things which do not sit well with you. This results in nothing but confusion on the part of the believer because he cannot determine truth when simultaneously holding conflicting doctrines.

 

[CopticChristian]

This was my point exactly, though I see that no one has responded to my previous post. I do not want to be uncharitable at all, but any faith that accepts conflicting doctrines as comprising “truth” drives me crazy. I also never seem to get an answer to what seems to be a fairly straight forward question. How do you believe all of these simultaneoulsy? I would hope that someone from the Bahai faith would at least address this issue.

My guess is that they do not embrace any of them completely, but rather pick and choose from each in order to form their own belief system, kind of like the way the Japanese make a car. You cannot claim Jesus as a prophet and at the same time reject him as the Son of God who said that “no one comes to the Father except through me”.

For these reasons, any faith along the lines of the Bahai faith would be the last place I would go to seek truth. It seems to me to be nothing but a conglomeration of contradiction.

Steve,

This will not make Ron happy.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

This will not make Ron happy.

I don’t suppose it will, but I would really like to hear a logical explanation of how one borrows from conflicting beliefs and then calls it truth. No one from the Bahai faith seems to want to address this.

 

[arthra]

I’m not hear to convert anyone so all I can do is respond with what I know Baha’is believe…

What we Baha’is accept is that there is only one religion of God that has appeared at various times and expressed itself through cultures…

My own impression as to why for instance the Buddha did not stress belief in God as such you would need to understand His mission … which was to breeak the strangle hold on the spiritual lives of the people of His day… He stressed an agnostic or via negativa approach as most of the Brahmin schools of His day had varying theological views and He refused to side with any of them… He also refused to side with the materialistic schools of His day the Carvaka…He opposed sacrificing animals and the caste system… so this would be an example.

I think if you study the various religions you will see how in some ways they are actually more similar than they are antithetical to each other at least I’ve learned that in my interfaith work.

Spiritually we believe the religions are one…

There have been different rules and laws, ordinances that were revealed for specific times and these change with each Manifestation.

Baha’is also accept that the prophecies of the return of Christ have been fulfilled…

Below are some excerpts from Baha’i sources:

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation. This is a century of life and renewal.

(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 224)

The divine prophets have revealed and founded religion. They have laid down certain laws and heavenly principles for the guidance of mankind. They have taught and promulgated the knowledge of God, established praiseworthy ethical ideals and inculcated the highest standards of virtues in the human world. Gradually these heavenly teachings and foundations of reality have been beclouded by human interpretations and dogmatic imitations of ancestral beliefs. The essential realities which the prophets labored so hard to establish in human hearts and minds while undergoing ordeals and suffering tortures of persecution,…

(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith - Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 224)

Again I’m not here to convert anyone… but if you have questions about the Faith I’ll do my best to respond to also…

Also it might interest you to know that we’re entering a period of our calendar called Ridvan which commemorates the announcement that Baha’u’llah made to His family and followers that He was Him Whom God would make manifest promised by the Bab earlier…Ridvan begins at sunset Friday April 20th and lasts for twelve days…during that time our communities elect Spiritual Assemblies which are responsible for issues that arise and administrative responsibilities. We have no priests or Mullahs in the Baha’i Faith.

 

[SteveVH]

I
Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation. This is a century of life and renewal.

With all due respect, this is exactly where I have a problem with your beliefs, especially when your beliefs profess to incorporate Jesus as a prophet. I would completely disagree that all things are subject to reformation. Truth is not subject to reformation. Christ was anything but ambigious in claiming that he was the fulfimment of all revelation; that he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He claimed to be God himself. This is a fact that cannot just be tossed aside if one claims him as a prophet. He either was who he said he was or he was a liar. If he was a liar then he was not a prophet. If what he claimed is true then we have no choice but to follow him and no one else. Please explain how you justify professing Christ as a prophet, in light of his claims, while you follow another.

Thank you.

 

[mikelionheart]

Hi Ron

It’s great to have you here.
The Bahai is a very interesting and wonderful one.
I have been to the temple in Delhi and there is a small Bahai group here in my hometown that are really wonderful people and good friends of mine. The mother of one of them recently wrote the Bahai section of the UK National School Religious Education curriculum.

However, I really must agree with Steve.

My biggest issue with Bahai’ism is that it is obviously a bit of a pick and mix and steal from other religions and claim that it is standing on their shoulders and that it’s the Bahais that ‘truly’ understand what all those other religion’s founders really taught.

It is a bit like Muhammed’s pinching from Christianity and Judaism in order to give his new religion more credibility.

Keep posting Ron.

God bless.

 

[arthra]

Steve,

Thanks for your post… I’ll quote your post and maybe offer something that may help explain…

*With all due respect, this is exactly where I have a problem with your beliefs, especially when your beliefs profess to incorporate Jesus as a prophet. I would completely disagree that all things are subject to reformation. Truth is not subject to reformation. Christ was anything but ambigious in claiming that he was the fulfimment of all revelation; that he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He claimed to be God himself. This is a fact that cannot just be tossed aside if one claims him as a prophet. He either was who he said he was or he was a liar. If he was a liar then he was not a prophet. If what he claimed is true then we have no choice but to follow him and no one else. Please explain how you justify professing Christ as a prophet, in light of his claims, while you follow another.

Thank you. *

On your concern “incorporate Jesus as a prophet” allow me to comment … I know the term “prophet” may jhave a diminutive definition in some contexts and I think if you understand what the Baha’i view is about Jesus Christ it may help explain… First though let me say that you are not quoting my words from my last post… They are the words … actually an English translation of the words of Abdul-Baha sometime ago… I included it would help explain our views.

To understand the Baha’i view of Jesus I believe it would be best to explain a concept that we have called “Manifestation of God”… I have a facebook friend Julio Savi who wrote an excellent synopsis of the concept at

bahai-library.com/books/quest/quest.06.html

The reason I prefer this is because it is succinct and an easy to follow outline of the concept abnd it has references to follow up on… Once you’ve perused this I think you will come to a better understanding of our view of Jesus as a Manifestion of God and why we normally would not simply refer to Jesus as a prophet…but a Manifestation of God.