Contact With Baha'is and the Baha'i Faith

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Baha’is believe Jesus Christ was martyred and His body crucified…
In our belief the resurrection was spiritual not physical.
Could you expound on this, please, in your own words?

Jesus’* spirit *appeared to the disciples? Is that the Bahai position?

Is this considered to be miraculous? And a way of conquering death? Or is it something that all souls achieve?
 
“What the Guardian was referring to was the Theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems, but man-made and yet, having partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muhammad are, in a sense, theocracies. The Bahá’í theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself… Theophany is used in the sense of Dispensation…”

(Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian, p. 78)
Hello again Arthra 👍

Thank you for your reply, most illuminating.

If I might add something to the above quote. I do not believe that the Guardian of your faith is referring to the Catholic Church as a religious body above, since the Catholic Church never started out as theocracy. Church and State only began to mix in a theocratic style say in the Middle Ages, when you had the Papal States which were clearly man-made. The early Catholic Church was completely separate from the Roman state, and indeed Christ mandated this separation between ecclesial and secular authority in the Gospels.

Otherwise, this would impute error to the Guardian of your faith, since it is well-known that the Catholic Church is a religious body and not a theocracy.

The theocracy element, to an extent, happened over a thousand years after Jesus with the Papal States 😃

This temporal authority is distinct from the spiritual authority of the Catholic Church established by Jesus Himself, and as you say headed by Peter as primus.

The only caution I would give you is that in our eyes Peter did not suceed Jesus. No one suceeded Jesus. Rather the Lord Jesus appointed a hierarchy who would carry on his Teachings and constitute his Mystical Body on earth. This is the Church, and yes Peter was the first among the Apostles.

However Peter was only a mortal man, Jesus was not. When you say suceed it makes me uncomfortable, for obvious reasons.
 
Vouthon wrote:

“If I might add something to the above quote. I do not believe that the Guardian of your faith is referring to the Catholic Church as a religious body above, since the Catholic Church never started out as theocracy. Church and State only began to mix in a theocratic style say in the Middle Ages, when you had the Papal States which were clearly man-made. The early Catholic Church was completely separate from the Roman state, and indeed Christ mandated this separation between ecclesial and secular authority in the Gospels.”

I think the impression of most is when the church came to be the state religion of the Empire is what it may refer to… The state supported the church and the church supported the state…please see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_church

From the late 6th to the late 8th centuries there was a turning of the papacy to the West and its escape from subordination to the authority of the Byzantine emperors of Constantinople. This phase has sometimes incorrectly been credited to Pope Gregory I (who reigned from 590 to 604 A.D.), who, like his predecessors, represented to the people of the Roman world a church that was still identified with the empire. Unlike some of those predecessors, Gregory was compelled to face the collapse of imperial authority in northern Italy. As the leading civil official of the empire in Rome, it fell to him to take over the civil administration of the cities and to negotiate for the protection of Rome itself with the Lombard invaders threatening it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_supremacy

You’re also correct I think that there was a theocratic style in the Middle Ages…
 
Could you expound on this, please, in your own words?

Jesus’* spirit *appeared to the disciples? Is that the Bahai position?

Is this considered to be miraculous? And a way of conquering death? Or is it something that all souls achieve?
As to the resurrection of Christ Baha’is believe that it was spiritual rather than physical…meaning the references were allegorical and symbolic rather than say corporeal…

After the crucifixion the disciples were disheartened and afraid… Later they took heart and renewed their faith and determinined on teaching the Gospel this would be what we call the resurrection…rather than say focusing on the corporeal.

I think when there was that willingness to sacrifice for such a Cause the fear of death was then minimal and therefore death would be “conquered”.

Generally we interpret spiritually rather that literally as some do…

“One of the veils is literal interpretation. To penetrate the inner significances a mighty effort is needed.”

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 29
 
Vouthon wrote:

The only caution I would give you is that in our eyes Peter did not suceed Jesus. No one suceeded Jesus. Rather the Lord Jesus appointed a hierarchy who would carry on his Teachings and constitute his Mystical Body on earth. This is the Church, and yes Peter was the first among the Apostles.

However Peter was only a mortal man, Jesus was not. When you say suceed it makes me uncomfortable, for obvious reasons.

My comment:

That’s fine … I mean someone He designated as the foundation of His church …You see when Prophet Muhammad was near leaving this earth He called for paper to make His Will known and it was denied Him… so this matter of who is to be the center of the dispensation is very important.
 
There’s such a limited time to edit posts here that somehow this was double posted so please excuse me…🙂

Vouthon wrote:

“If I might add something to the above quote. I do not believe that the Guardian of your faith is referring to the Catholic Church as a religious body above, since the Catholic Church never started out as theocracy. Church and State only began to mix in a theocratic style say in the Middle Ages, when you had the Papal States which were clearly man-made. The early Catholic Church was completely separate from the Roman state, and indeed Christ mandated this separation between ecclesial and secular authority in the Gospels.”

The selection regarding theocracy is given as an example…“What the Guardian was referring to was the Theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems…”

I think the impression of most is when the church came to be the state religion of the Empire is what it may refer to… The state supported the church and the church supported the state…please see:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_church

From the late 6th to the late 8th centuries there was a turning of the papacy to the West and its escape from subordination to the authority of the Byzantine emperors of Constantinople. This phase has sometimes incorrectly been credited to Pope Gregory I (who reigned from 590 to 604 A.D.), who, like his predecessors, represented to the people of the Roman world a church that was still identified with the empire. Unlike some of those predecessors, Gregory was compelled to face the collapse of imperial authority in northern Italy. As the leading civil official of the empire in Rome, it fell to him to take over the civil administration of the cities and to negotiate for the protection of Rome itself with the Lombard invaders threatening it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_supremacy

You’re also correct I think that there was a theocratic style in the Middle Ages…

God bless you!
 
We view Christ as divine because He perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity…
This would make every Saint a Divine Person or God, which is blasphemous.
He didn’t have to work at it or polish the mirror of His heart to do so…
It is not impossible for God to dispense such graces to men so as to lead blameless lives. It would not make them a Divine Person.

For example, the Mother of God never committed a mortal sin, and it would seem rash and presumptous to assume that she entertained even habits of venial sin; nonetheless, she is not a Divine Person: she is a human creature.
In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.
This equivocates either God with men or men with God and is therefore blasphemous. God is not a creature: all men are creatures. Further, Abraham and Moses had faith in the coming of Christ, the Messiah and Redemeer. Christ need not have faith in the coming of anyone.
This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations
.

Again this is blasphemy and a doorway to pantheism.
For instance, the sun is one and the same but its points of dawning are various.
The sun and its rays are not identical. A ray of sunlight is not the sun. Christ, however, is identical with God; men cannot be since we are creatures made in His image and likeness. We are contigent beings, and God alone is eternal and contigent upon nothing and no one.
We do not say the Mirror is God or that Christ is God…rather that the attributes of God were perfectly relfected in Him:
Really? Is God a liar? For if Christ is not God Himself, then He is a liar and a blasphemer, but nonetheless Christ still reflected the attributes of God perfectly. Is lying an attribute of Almighty God? Is God a deceiver of men? No, such are the devil’s works.
The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.
The sun is not in its rays anymore than a lick of fire is in the light it produces; otherwise, light from a candle would burn us as a flame. The flame produces light and heat that are contigent upon it; however, the flame is not itself the light or heat it produces.

Your theology is simply pantheistic and denies the Promises of God and the Faith of Israel, especially in regards to the Messiah.
 
Jesus also says “Before Abraham was, I am.” see John 8:52-58.
 
*Augustson *

I haven’t seen you post here before…so welcome! I haev prefaced your statements with your name and added my replies to you:

My earlier post:

We view Christ as divine because He perfectly reflected the attributes of God to humanity…

August:


This would make every Saint a Divine Person or God, which is blasphemous.

My reply:

I don’t know what you mean but we don’t view every saint as Divine for the simple reason they are not Manifestations fo God…this is a very special catagory for us… Saints would be reflecting the light from the Sun of the Manifestion in their time …so they cannot be Jesus Christ nor ever hope to be of the same station.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
He didn’t have to work at it or polish the mirror of His heart to do so…

August:

It is not impossible for God to dispense such graces to men so as to lead blameless lives. It would not make them a Divine Person.

My reply:

It was possible in our view to dispense such a grace to Jesus Christ a Manifestation of God.

August:

For example, the Mother of God never committed a mortal sin, and it would seem rash and presumptous to assume that she entertained even habits of venial sin; nonetheless, she is not a Divine Person: she is a human creature.

My comment:

She was Jesus’ mother a mortal…not a Manifestation … in our view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
In the Word of God there is still another unity, the oneness of the Manifestations of God, His Holiness Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.

August:

This equivocates either God with men or men with God and is therefore blasphemous. God is not a creature: all men are creatures. Further, Abraham and Moses had faith in the coming of Christ, the Messiah and Redemeer. Christ need not have faith in the coming of anyone.

My comment:

Well I have two things to say… One is that I agree with you that Moses and Abraham had faith in the coming of Jesus Christ… The second is that Christ had faith in His own “return”. As far as blaspheming Jesus was accused of as much by the Sanhedrin. So do you want to be with the Sanhedrin or Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
This is a unity divine, heavenly, radiant, merciful; the one reality appearing in its successive manifestations.

August:

Again this is blasphemy and a doorway to pantheism.

My comment:

Again you seem to like the word “blashemy”… Are you a prelate? As to Pantheism Baha’is don’t accept it… We believe there is a difference between God and being His creation… God doesn’t incarnate into flesh is our belief,
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
For instance, the sun is one and the same but its points of dawning are various.

August:

The sun and its rays are not identical. A ray of sunlight is not the sun. Christ, however, is identical with God; men cannot be since we are creatures made in His image and likeness. We are contigent beings, and God alone is eternal and contigent upon nothing and no one.

My comment:

Yes we would agree…we are contingent beings and God is contingent on nothing and no one…The allegory presented is in my view suggesting that the same sun rises at various dawning points … this means in our view that God is one and He choses to manifest Himself at various times and conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

We do not say the Mirror is God or that Christ is God…rather that the attributes of God were perfectly reflected in Him:

August:

Really? Is God a liar? For if Christ is not God Himself, then He is a liar and a blasphemer, but nonetheless Christ still reflected the attributes of God perfectly. Is lying an attribute of Almighty God? Is God a deceiver of men? No, such are the devil’s works.

My comment:

No we don’t believe God lies or deceives…that would be characteristic of another…but we also believe Christ perfectly reflected the attributes of God. Again you seem to like the word “blaspheme” and “blasphmer”… You use that word so much it must be warm where you are…I would not use such a word myself or issue anathemas either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthra forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality – that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes – became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied – for the Sun is one – but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

August:

The sun is not in its rays anymore than a lick of fire is in the light it produces; otherwise, light from a candle would burn us as a flame. The flame produces light and heat that are contigent upon it; however, the flame is not itself the light or heat it produces.

My reply:

The Sun has rays and heat and thanks be to God we can benefit from it…

There is a Psalm 43:3:

Send forth your light and your truth, let them guide me; let them bring me to your holy mountain, to the place where you dwell.

and Jesus taught as reported in Matthew:

5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


August:

Your theology is simply pantheistic and denies the Promises of God and the Faith of Israel, especially in regards to the Messiah.

My reply:

I won’t ask you how you arrived at this view but you should know we are not pantheists… We don’t believe God is in everthing… A defintion of Pantheism is as follows:

“the view that the Universe (or Nature) and God (or divinity) are identical.”

We don’t hold this view… I’ve met pantheists before and Baha’is don’t believe that God and HIs creation are identical.

The peace of God rest with you August and I will pray that you limit your use of the word “blaspheme”.

🙂
 
I do not believe that the Guardian of your faith is referring to the Catholic Church as a religious body above, since the Catholic Church never started out as theocracy. Church and State only began to mix in a theocratic style say in the Middle Ages, when you had the Papal States which were clearly man-made. The early Catholic Church was completely separate from the Roman state, and indeed Christ mandated this separation between ecclesial and secular authority in the Gospels.

Otherwise, this would impute error to the Guardian of your faith, since it is well-known that the Catholic Church is a religious body and not a theocracy.

The theocracy element, to an extent, happened over a thousand years after Jesus with the Papal States 😃
At the time Shoghi Effendi wrote this, neither the caliphate nor the papacy had theocratic power in any state. I think the word is not used in the political-science sense.

Here’s the quote again, from a 1949 letter written on behalf of the Guardian:
  • What the Guardian was referring to was the Theocratic systems, such as the Catholic Church and the Caliphate, which are not divinely given as systems, but man-made and yet, having partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muhammad are, in a sense, theocracies. The Baha’i theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet Himself… Theophany is used in the sense of Dispensation…”
It is evident that the secretary is replying to a question, and is explaining a reference in a text written by Shoghi Effendi himself. To understand the answer, we need to locate the text being discussed. But even before we locate that, we can see that the definition of ‘theocracy’ here is ‘a system derived from the teachings of a prophet.’ It is not stated that it is a system of governing a country. While both the Catholic Church and the Caliphate have at times exercised the power of civil government, this was not the case when Shoghi Effendi was writing. The last of the several ‘caliphates’ that could be referred to is the caliphate claimed in the late Ottoman empire by the Sultan, according to which he would be the spiritual leader – not ruler – of the world’s Muslims. On the several occasions when Shoghi Effendi refers to the end of the Caliphate in his writings, he is referring to this spiritual caliphate. Its abolition, two years after the abolition of the Sultanate, was a renunciation of the idea of a pan-Islamic union that the Sultans had fostered. So the theocracies, including the ‘Bahai theocracy,’ that the Guardian’s secretary is referring to here are all systems of leading and guiding a religious community, they are not systems of government.
Code:
If we try to locate the earlier passage from Shoghi Effendi that the secretary is explaining, two possibilities present themselves. The earlier is in his 1934 letter, ‘The Dispensation of Baha’u’llah,’ a letter that is entirely devoted to explaining the principles underlying the Bahai Administrative Order, and in particular the relationship between the hereditary guardianship and the elected Houses of Justice. He says:
The Baha’i Commonwealth of the future, … can find no parallel in the annals of any of the world’s recognized religious systems. No form of democratic government; no system of autocracy or of dictatorship, whether monarchical or republican; no intermediary scheme of a purely aristocratic order; nor even any of the recognized types of theocracy, whether it be the Hebrew Commonwealth, or the various Christian ecclesiastical organizations, or the Imamate or the Caliphate in Islam …
The letter continues in this vein for some time, comparing and contrasting the Bahai Administrative Order to democracy, autocracy, ecclesiastical government (with the examples of the Papacy and the Imamate), and aristocratic and hereditary government. It is not describing a system of governing a country or a world, but the system of “the Baha’i Commonwealth,” a commonwealth in the sense Gibbon refers to the Christian commonwealth, operating and growing within the pagan Roman Empire. This section of the letter refers repeatedly to ‘The Administrative Order’ and cannot be made to apply to the institutions of the world political order envisioned by Baha’u’llah.
Code:
The second possible reference is to Shoghi Effendi’s review of the first century of the Babi and Bahai history, God Passes By (1944). In it he says that:
The Administrative Order … is … unique in the annals of the world’s religious systems. … Nor is the principle governing its operation similar to that which underlies any system, whether theocratic or otherwise, which the minds of men have devised for the government of human institutions. Neither in theory nor in practice can the Administrative Order of the Faith of Baha’u’llah be said to conform to any type of democratic government, to any system of autocracy, to any purely aristocratic order, or to any of the various theocracies, whether Jewish, Christian or Islamic which mankind has witnessed in the past.
This echoes his earlier statement, more briefly. These are the only two instances in which Shoghi Effendi uses the word theocracy in connection with the Bahai Faith, and both refer to its internal organisation as a religious community, not to its theories about the organisation of the state.

Therefore I think he is also referring to the Catholic church as an example of a theocratic form of church government, not to the claims of the papacy (briefly, for example under Hildebrand and Boniface VIII) of suzerainty over the kings of Europe, or to the papal states, which actually were theocracies (defined as the rule of the state by the religious order).
 
After the crucifixion the disciples were disheartened and afraid… Later they took heart and renewed their faith and determinined on teaching the Gospel this would be what we call the resurrection…rather than say focusing on the corporeal.
Are you saying that the disciplies knew that Jesus didn’t really physically rise from the dead, and lied about it in order to spread the Good News about his message of love and forgiveness?

Or are you saying that they didn’t lie but were deceived into thinking Jesus really rose but didn’t?

:confused:
 
Are you saying that the disciplies knew that Jesus didn’t really physically rise from the dead, and lied about it in order to spread the Good News about his message of love and forgiveness?

Or are you saying that they didn’t lie but were deceived into thinking Jesus really rose but didn’t?

:confused:
PRmerger,

Thanks for your post!

I realize in your belief and what you have been taught this may seem difficult to understand.

The issue for me personally is that no body “lied”…

When people have gone through extreme fear as the apostles did and then regained their faith and confidence they renewed their teaching efforts and spread the Gospel. The Spirit of Christ was alive for them…Jesus was “alive”…Saul after his conversion experienced this on the way to Damascus…

It’s possible there were some visionary experiences experienced by the disciples that were passed down over time and translated into Greek long afterwards…People believed in visions just as the reported appearance of Elijah and Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration.

But the point for us Baha’is is that they should not be taken as literal physical events but have spiritual significances… If you read the account of Luke of the crucifixion it states it very simply I think:

23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”a] When he had said this, he breathed his last.

I believe He did indeed commit HIs Spirit to God.
 
Right back at 'cha, arthra. 🙂

Not sure what the link means?

You’re saying that the Bahai’s do not use a “high comma” in their lexicon but an apostrophe?

Okay. Why the difference? And where does your Baha’i link describe this?

And what would it mean if I put the apostrophe in a different place, (as I often inadvertently type it as Bah’ai and have to backspace and correct it. That’s why I wonder what its significance is.)
 
PRmerger,

Thanks for your post!

I realize in your belief and what you have been taught this may seem difficult to understand.

The issue for me personally is that no body “lied”…

When people have gone through extreme fear as the apostles did and then regained their faith and confidence they renewed their teaching efforts and spread the Gospel. The Spirit of Christ was alive for them…Jesus was “alive”…
So they knew that he wasn’t actually “alive” but only “alive” in their hearts and minds and teachings?

When did it get mistakenly assumed that Christ had literally risen?
Saul after his conversion experienced this on the way to Damascus…
Indeed. And he wrote that if Christ is not risen then our faith is in vain.

So you think that he also meant a spiritual resurrection and not a corporeal one?
 
It’s possible there were some visionary experiences experienced by the disciples that were passed down over time and translated into Greek long afterwards…People believed in visions just as the reported appearance of Elijah and Moses at the Mount of Transfiguration.
Let’s think this through: a bunch of disciples experienced Jesus coming to them in a vision, and then they…. Please tell me what story they told about this vision.
I believe He did indeed commit HIs Spirit to God.
Indeed, arthra. But this is a non-sequitur.

No one is denying that Christ did not commit his spirit to God.
 
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