Contemplating Islam

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I want to restate my point from earlier that Islam has been embraced by and in turn been transformed by people from many different cultures throughout the centuries, so how does it constitute Arabic supremacy exactly?

Don’t forget that the central object of veneration in their religion is not a Divine Person, as it is in ours, but a Divine Book. The fact that the book was revealed in Arabic should not, on the surface of it, disqualify it from having a universal message, it seems to me.
And how exactly do you reconcile this with Islamic apologetics of the type that I posted earlier, which grant special significance to Arabic as the most direct route to God? These arguments must carry some currency across much of the Islamic world, as our friend Elwill essentially quoted them (without the quotes) to justify the Arab-centric public prayer of Islam.

It has occured to me that you and I are possibly making two separate arguments and hence may be talking around each other, so to speak. It seems to me from reading your replies to my posts that you think that I am equating “Arab supremacy” with “use of the Arabic language as an official policy towards public prayer”. Perhaps I’m reading you wrong, but if that is what you think I’m saying I can see that I wasn’t as successful in clarifying myself earlier as I thought I was. I’ll try again now:

The issue is NOT one of Muslims praying in Arabic regardless of their ethnic or cultural background. While I do have issues with that and the underlying logic that supports it (that I hopefully made a bit more clear in my post about the problems of a “sacred” language), really what I have called the “Arab supremacist” viewpoint inculcated by Islam is only most obviously shown with reference to the language issue. It is in reality much larger than that, as Byzantine Wolf has pointed out, though I suppose I feel most comfortable commenting on the linguistic aspects of Arab cultural expression/domination within Islam, for obvious reasons.

Again, we are apparently in agreement that Islam has been defined and practiced in different ways throughout the world, according to the interpretations of different cultures. No problems there, right? Islam is no more a monolith than Christianity or any other world religion is. The problem, in my view, lies with what are Muslim-specific claims regarding God, culture, epistemology, etc. To the extent that anyone of any background can accept those claims, Islam is most certainly a universal religion. I have never, as far as I can remember, denied this. I still claim that it is better to call it a universalizing religion, as it universalizes ONE cultural mindset via its religious character, rather than universalizing the religion itself through its expression via many different cultural mindsets which are (ideally) seen as equally acceptable so long as they express the same religious orthodoxy (which all cultures are theoretically capable of doing, regardless of language, origin, etc). In Islam, it seems to me that this model is tweaked due to the presence of a religious orthodoxy that contains within it the idea that Arabic language, culture, and customs are to be seen as permissable whereas others are not, for various reasons. Outside of prayers, things not considered in conformity with Islam include those cultural practices common to incompletely Islamicized people like certain “Berbers”, whose women actively pursue men for marriage, and wear makeup (see Venema and Bakker “A permissive zone for prostitution in the Middle Atlas of Morocco”, Ethnology, Vol. 43, No.1, Winter 2004). Now what on earth is wrong with that? As explained in the study, Arab women don’t do it! So it is “far from Islam”, as a Qur’an teacher among the Ait Abdi Berbers said of all this barbaric behaviour like women proposing marriage to him. Oh my stars! The gall of some women, right?
 
sorry but thats not what i said…a translation can never be Gods word because God “said” those words in arabic…it doesnt mean that the message is lost after the translation

read this:

submission.org/quran/arabic.html
You wrote"
Quote: Bosnian Muslim:
**The Koran is the word of God,
real words of God…
thats what we believe,
and since Gods words are holy we pronounce them as they were given to the prophet**…
because it can never be 100% same with a translation.
A translation of the Koran is always a translation and never Gods word
The koran was given to mohamad in Arabic.

The koran needs to be read by English speaking people therefore it is a “translation” from Arabic to English.

Therefore based on your statement:

It is “never Gods word”

Therefore if it’s translated it is “never Gods word” and the message of “God’s word” is lost in the meaning.
QUOTE]Quote: Bosnian Muslim:
**The Koran is the word of God,
real words of God…**
thats what we believe,
And to boot this quote, God never spoke to mohamad.
If I were to stick to the koran, it is claimed that Gabriel spoke those words and not God.
 
Is it? What about the absorption of Persian culture into Islamic civilization, which probably did more than anything else to alter the religion and make into something that could become a global movement? What about the many ways that Islam adapted to the many and diverse cultural environments in which it spread and have since continued to evolve? Islam in Indonesia is not the same as Islam in subsaharan Africa or China for example.

I think the assumptions you’re making show the dangers of assuming an unchanging essence for Islam. In your case you’re assuming it “froze” shortly after the death of Mohammad (I think). I think the only way you can hold this view is if you know nothing about the history of the religion after the death of Mohammad.
I think your claim that some assume Islam “froze” depends on what the person believes regarding tradition. If you mean that everything is 100% done the same way in Mohammad’s time as it is now, that would be a silly argument to make - and for any religion at that. No one upholds that a religion maintains all traditions or that not a tiny little bit is introduced along the way (although some Muslims would argue this), but that the main fundamental beliefs and practices are upheld.

Perhaps Islam is not 100% the same in Indonesia as it is in northern Africa or along the Ivory Coast…nevertheless, the Islam itself is the same, and the beliefs therein are, and this includes beliefs regarding the primacy of certain cultures within the faith. The casual language of a mosque in Malaysia may be different, but that language is not considered as highly as Arabic in terms of their relationship with God - yes, this goes far beyond liturgical or worship languages. Again, Orthodox Christian services are done in the local languages, and no one goes around telling African Orthodox or Japanese Orthodox that Greek is the language of God, and that in order to have a “mystical journey” to Christ, they will have to learn Greek. In Islam, you do find this (incidentally, the first person who ever told me Arabic was the language of Paradise was from a Filipino Muslim woman).
What makes you think Islam does this?
Have you not read the arguments presented by elwill, in particular those answers he presented which I highlighted in one of my responses to him? If you have a preconceived notion of how Islam treats Arabic, it might be best, instead of attacking the Christians arguing with Muslims, to attack the Muslims arguing with the Christians.
Well you’re right it doesn’t place all languages on equal footing, because Arabic is their sacred language due to their reverence for the Quran. But I think you’re making an unwarranted leap from that to saying it “does not accept the cultural identity of all men”. Whatever flaws the religion has, it does do a good job uniting people from different cultural backgrounds under a simple set of rubrics – isn’t this in evidence from the remarkable diversity of Muslims today? That more than anything else is probably the secret of its success.
Again, you seem to misunderstand my point. No where did I deny that Islam “unites” all men - but then again, so does communism, fascism, and other extreme elements of socialism and nationalism. The trick is what this “unity” really means, and what “unity” means within the context argued.

Let’s again reiterate what started this whole conversation: elwill stated that Islam nullified all previous revelations because those previous revelations were focused solely on a culture and region. Besides the fact that this was backed up by an uncited reference to the Torah (which elwill then could not back up) it also ignores the Great Commission given by Christ at the end of Matthew’s gospel and spoken of in some detail at the end of Luke’s. So, on that basis alone, the argument fails.

On the basis of not appealing to a certain culture or region…that argument also fails. I have presented how important Arabic is in Islam - not just language but the very culture - and I have presented how Islam’s beliefs are distinct to the region Mohammad grew up in (in fact many of Islam’s beliefs were practically off-the-hip revelations by Mohammad). Elwill has done a nice job presenting how Arabic is placed above all other languages and cultures in Islam, which also ironically nullifies any validity for his argument.

Again, if a Muslim simply came to the forum and said, “Arabic is important in Islam,” or “The original founders of Islam were Arabs,” I would not argue…but if a Muslim comes to this forum and declares Islam does not appeal to a culture, language, people or region, whereas Judaism and Christianity do, then of course I am going to debate the point, because, even by Islamic standards, it is wrong. This must be remembered as the context of this very debate.
 
Slight correction to my last post:

Perhaps Islam is not 100% the same in Indonesia as it is in northern Africa or along the Ivory Coast…nevertheless, the Islam itself is the same, and the beliefs therein are, and this includes beliefs regarding the primacy of certain cultures within the faith.

I meant to write:

Perhaps Islam is not 100% the same in Indonesia as it is in northern Africa or along the Ivory Coast…nevertheless, the Islamic core is the same, and the beliefs therein are…
 
To the One contemplating Islam or whoever intends to embrace Islam, it is an advice to be very careful for the following reasons:
  1. He/she will have to hold strict belief in the Unity of God and no parts or parcels about God. It would have to be a belief like the Jews believe about God or YEHWAH.
  2. That person will have to believe in all the angels of God and will never downplay (abuse) any angel of God in any way.
  3. That contemplating person will have to believe in all the revealed books from God, such as Torah and Zabur and Bible (Injeel) and Quran. Disbelief in any one of those books will expell the person out of the fold of Islam. By the word belief is meant that named book was indeed revealed by God and not by any devil.
  4. The one considering Islam as a good religion will have to believe in all the prophets / messengers of God. Disbelief in any will render the person unfit for Islam. That means he/she will have to believe in (I give a short list) Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron (and many other Israeli prophets including Zakariyya, John the baptist, Jesus) and Muhammad.
We have to keep in mind the messengers of other nations i.e. Budha, Krishna, too. All those mentioned are praise worthy and the person will never abuse or degrade them…
  1. He/She will have to utter/ announce/ admit that there is no God except Allah/God/YHWH and Muhammad is His messenger.
  2. Then there is more to do, much more essentials, i.e. Praying five times a day in the prescribed way without fail. Giving 2.5% of the savings for the poor people relief, Observing full month of fasting in Ramadhan. Performing pilgrimage to Makkah once in life time if conditions permit.
  3. The above were the basics. There is a lot more for the achievement of full success in life, such as, there are about 600 commands in the Quran for the guidance of the believers. The believer has to follow them too. They are advisory matters such as are given in the Torah and BibleNT too.
I therefore request any one contemplating Islam to be very careful and not to jump into something which may prove difficult in the end. May Allah bless all with peace of mind. It is not the material well being in Islam but spiritual too. It is not spiritual uplift but material benefits too. Islam is not inclined to one side only. It is a balanced ideology and not inclined to any extremity.

Every one is free to come into Islam. Welcome. Every one is free to leave Islam too if he/she is not satisfied with it. But such a person will have to be careful about the present day Muslim Clergy becuse they might try to kill the apostate.
 
To the One contemplating Islam or whoever intends to embrace Islam, it is an advice to be very careful for the following reasons:
  1. He/she will have to hold strict belief in the Unity of God and no parts or parcels about God. It would have to be a belief like the Jews believe about God or YEHWAH.
  2. That person will have to believe in all the angels of God and will never downplay (abuse) any angel of God in any way.
  3. That contemplating person will have to believe in all the revealed books from God, such as Torah and Zabur and Bible (Injeel) and Quran. Disbelief in any one of those books will expell the person out of the fold of Islam. By the word belief is meant that named book was indeed revealed by God and not by any devil.
  4. The one considering Islam as a good religion will have to believe in all the prophets / messengers of God. Disbelief in any will render the person unfit for Islam. That means he/she will have to believe in (I give a short list) Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron (and many other Israeli prophets including Zakariyya, John the baptist, Jesus) and Muhammad.
We have to keep in mind the messengers of other nations i.e. Budha, Krishna, too. All those mentioned are praise worthy and the person will never abuse or degrade them…
  1. He/She will have to utter/ announce/ admit that there is no God except Allah/God/YHWH and Muhammad is His messenger.
  2. Then there is more to do, much more essentials, i.e. Praying five times a day in the prescribed way without fail. Giving 2.5% of the savings for the poor people relief, Observing full month of fasting in Ramadhan. Performing pilgrimage to Makkah once in life time if conditions permit.
  3. The above were the basics. There is a lot more for the achievement of full success in life, such as, there are about 600 commands in the Quran for the guidance of the believers. The believer has to follow them too. They are advisory matters such as are given in the Torah and BibleNT too.
I therefore request any one contemplating Islam to be very careful and not to jump into something which may prove difficult in the end. May Allah bless all with peace of mind. It is not the material well being in Islam but spiritual too. It is not spiritual uplift but material benefits too. Islam is not inclined to one side only. It is a balanced ideology and not inclined to any extremity.

Every one is free to come into Islam. Welcome. Every one is free to leave Islam too if he/she is not satisfied with it. But such a person will have to be careful about the present day Muslim Clergy becuse they might try to kill the apostate.
Those suggestions is mostly ur own idea not the official islamic teaching
 
To the One contemplating Islam or whoever intends to embrace Islam, it is an advice to be very careful for the following reasons:
  1. He/she will have to hold strict belief in the Unity of God and no parts or parcels about God. It would have to be a belief like the Jews believe about God or YEHWAH.
  2. That person will have to believe in all the angels of God and will never downplay (abuse) any angel of God in any way.
  3. That contemplating person will have to believe in all the revealed books from God, such as Torah and Zabur and Bible (Injeel) and Quran. Disbelief in any one of those books will expell the person out of the fold of Islam. By the word belief is meant that named book was indeed revealed by God and not by any devil.
  4. The one considering Islam as a good religion will have to believe in all the prophets / messengers of God. Disbelief in any will render the person unfit for Islam. That means he/she will have to believe in (I give a short list) Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron (and many other Israeli prophets including Zakariyya, John the baptist, Jesus) and Muhammad.
We have to keep in mind the messengers of other nations i.e. Budha, Krishna, too. All those mentioned are praise worthy and the person will never abuse or degrade them…
  1. He/She will have to utter/ announce/ admit that there is no God except Allah/God/YHWH and Muhammad is His messenger.
  2. Then there is more to do, much more essentials, i.e. Praying five times a day in the prescribed way without fail. Giving 2.5% of the savings for the poor people relief, Observing full month of fasting in Ramadhan. Performing pilgrimage to Makkah once in life time if conditions permit.
  3. The above were the basics. There is a lot more for the achievement of full success in life, such as, there are about 600 commands in the Quran for the guidance of the believers. The believer has to follow them too. They are advisory matters such as are given in the Torah and BibleNT too.
I therefore request any one contemplating Islam to be very careful and not to jump into something which may prove difficult in the end. May Allah bless all with peace of mind. It is not the material well being in Islam but spiritual too. It is not spiritual uplift but material benefits too. Islam is not inclined to one side only. It is a balanced ideology and not inclined to any extremity.

Every one is free to come into Islam. Welcome. Every one is free to leave Islam too if he/she is not satisfied with it. But such a person will have to be careful about the present day Muslim Clergy becuse they might try to kill the apostate.
When you say you believe in the Bible you only belive in the Old Testament and parts of the new Testament,you have to be specific here.
 
What would you say to a person who was contemplating Islam?
I really need some strong advice and hard facts!:confused:
There’s a book called “Inside Islam” that is well worth reading. That I think will be quite an eye opener for your friend. This is written by a Muslim who converted to Catholicism so he know’s what he is talking about.
 
We have to keep in mind the messengers of other nations i.e. Budha, Krishna, too. All those mentioned are praise worthy and the person will never abuse or degrade them.
Apparently even when those “messengers of other nations” contradict Islamic theology and teach a belief in the Deity that even Mohammad would condemn. Incidentally, Krishna is a deity, not a person - so should Muslims respect a deity other than Allah? :confused:
Every one is free to leave Islam too if he/she is not satisfied with it. But such a person will have to be careful about the present day Muslim Clergy becuse they might try to kill the apostate.
They are simply following the ways of their prophet and his companions 🙂

Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17; emphasis mine]

Narrated Abu Burda:
…Then he (i.e. Muadh) pitched a tent and they started visiting each other. Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, “What is this?” Abu Musa said, “(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate.” Muadh said, “I will surely chop off his neck!” [Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 632]
When you say you believe in the Bible you only belive in the Old Testament and parts of the new Testament,you have to be specific here.
Indeed, many potential converts to Islam don’t fully realize the scope of this until after conversion. It’s sort of like how some people say, “Oh! Islam believes in Jesus too!” Well, yes, they do believe in Jesus, but to what extent? Do they believe Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God, the only begotten Son of God sent down from Heaven and taking flesh to die on the cross so that resurrection and salvation can be preached through all nations?..nope, not at all.
 

3. That contemplating person will have to believe in all the revealed books from God, such as Torah and Zabur and Bible (Injeel) and Quran.
That contemplating person will most of all have to be able to rationalize two mutually exclusive statements and ideas, such as the Bible and the Qur’an, since the Bible contradicts the Qur’an.
 
no not really,but its the translation…so you understand what you are reciting during salat(that is the point)
I’ve read many articles by ex-Muslims stating that many Muslims are made to recite the Quran in Arabic without knowing the language.

Vickie
 
I’ve read many articles by ex-Muslims stating that many Muslims are made to recite the Quran in Arabic without knowing the language.
Here is a quote from islamic-world.net/invitation.php?ArtID=338 :

The original is better

It is not mandatory to know Arabic to become a Muslim.

As the Qur’an is recited during prayers, one has to memorize a few chapters.

The shortest chapter has only three verses.

Learning Arabic will be an advantage as there is a big difference between reading the translations of The Qur’an and the original text in Arabic.

Allah knows what is in your heart

A person embracing Islam is allowed reasonable time to learn and perform the prayers and other obligatory duties.

Remember that you have to perform these duties not to please others but to submit to Allah The Merciful Who knows what is in your heart.

By Courtesy: Dr. Y Mansoor Marican, Ph.D

It appears that you do have to memorize the verses in Arabic. I have never gotten a Muslim to explain how a person can become a believer without knowing what he is supposed to believe since, “…there is a big difference between reading the translations of The Qur’an and the original text in Arabic.” Take Dr. Marican’s website for example. What would its meaning be if he had written it in Arabic?
 
I think your claim that some assume Islam “froze” depends on what the person believes regarding tradition …
I think we may be talking past each other. I’ll re-read Elwill’s posts to get a better sense of what he’s saying and get back to you and Dzheremi.

I’m not trying to harrass anyone just trying to separate polemic from reasoned argument. I’m sorry if I came off as argumentative.
 
I pray for those bosnian women to know the true Most High God, His Word which He sent, and His Spirit which is with us…
And I hope they open their minds and read, read, and read to discover the true path and not just relying on their ancestors words
i agree

the ancestors of bosnians were christians(catholic,orthodox or bogomil) 😉
 
i agree

the ancestors of bosnians were christians(catholic,orthodox or bogomil) 😉
It seems you ‘reverted’, or went backwards. I do believe that ‘converting’ to Islam is the wrong word, that Muslims use the word ‘reverting’ to Islam instead. And that is indeed what happens when one leaves any religion and reverts to Islam’s ideology.

Reverting backwards, or change, isn’t always for the better.

Muslims remind me of this latest scandel with the left wing and Polanski. They cannot admit that he is a pervert just as the Muslims cannot admit that Mohammed was a pervert. And Mohammed was worse than Polanski because he would kill people just because they disagreed with him, and for their loot and to get more slaves.
 
I think your claim that some assume Islam “froze” depends on what the person believes regarding tradition. If you mean that everything is 100% done the same way in Mohammad’s time as it is now, that would be a silly argument to make - and for any religion at that. No one upholds that a religion maintains all traditions or that not a tiny little bit is introduced along the way (although some Muslims would argue this), but that the main fundamental beliefs and practices are upheld.
After rereading the earlier parts of the thread and thinking about the original question, I’ve come to the conclusion that we are probably more in agreement than it originally appeared. Because I would not convert to Islam either for reasons similar to the ones you’re articulating: i.e. it’s too alien to the religious tradition I was brought up in. Unlike you however I would attribute that “alienness” to Middle Eastern culture rather than Arab culture, simply because classic Islamic civilization is much more than (and much grander than) Arab culture as it existed in the time of Mohammad, and this classic Islamic civilization is what the medieval Muslim world exported to the rest of the world.

I would also say that every religion presents a tension between the cultural particulars of its origins and the universal aspirations it claims to represent. Naturally my feeling is that Christianity (especially Western Christianity – sorry, BW) has done a better job than Islam at negotiating this tension but I wouldn’t say Islam has been a complete and utter failure – I don’t think it would have a billion or so adherents all over the planet if it were. And even though I wouldn’t convert to Islam there are Westerners who do convert so the case for Islam as a universal religion must be compelling to them.

As far as the “problem” of privileging the language of Arabic and Elwill’s “mystical journey” comment I’m not informed enough about the theology of Islam to really comment. It doesn’t seem to me to be as big a problem as you make it out to be and Elwill’s distinction between public prayer (which in Islam is very regimented in all kinds of ways, in contrast to contemporary Christianity) and private supplication seems apt to me.
 
After rereading the earlier parts of the thread and thinking about the original question, I’ve come to the conclusion that we are probably more in agreement than it originally appeared. Because I would not convert to Islam either for reasons similar to the ones you’re articulating: i.e. it’s too alien to the religious tradition I was brought up in. Unlike you however I would attribute that “alienness” to Middle Eastern culture rather than Arab culture, simply because classic Islamic civilization is much more than (and much grander than) Arab culture as it existed in the time of Mohammad, and this classic Islamic civilization is what the medieval Muslim world exported to the rest of the world.
I agree that there is a kind of “alienness” for many because Islam is not as “western” as most religions are, and this often works for the benefit of Islam because for many it gives it a bit of an uncanny appeal. This was some of the appeal for it to me at first, but I think many converts realize, like I did, just how alien it truly is, not only in the basics but also in the fundamentals as well. Certainly I’ve encountered a lot of Greek in my journey into the Greek Orthodox archdiocese, but I’ve never had Greek culture put upon me in any way (again, no one’s ever told me to pick up a Greek name). Proselytizing Muslims often appeal to western ideals and spiritual desires (such as the use of Biblical prophets in Islam, or the desire to know God in an organized way) to bring in western converts.
I would also say that every religion presents a tension between the cultural particulars of its origins and the universal aspirations it claims to represent. Naturally my feeling is that Christianity (especially Western Christianity – sorry, BW) has done a better job than Islam at negotiating this tension but I wouldn’t say Islam has been a complete and utter failure – I don’t think it would have a billion or so adherents all over the planet if it were. And even though I wouldn’t convert to Islam there are Westerners who do convert so the case for Islam as a universal religion must be compelling to them.
I would agree to the first sentence in part. I’ve spoken to missionaries who say they have to (and please forgive me for using this word) “advertise” Christianity in certain parts of the world, such as Japan, but much of this is because much of Christianity, especially modern Evangelical Christianity, is very western in thought, and has to be adapted to suit various cultures.

I would disagree, however, that only western Christianity has managed to “negotiate this tension.” As I said, what most consider “eastern Christianity” (or Orthodoxy) has adapted well in places such as Africa, Japan, India, etc., and the success stories from missionaries in the OCMC attests to this. In places like America or South Africa you have poorer examples of this, but again, as I said earlier, I blame this more on the fact that the Orthodox population is made up of immigrants. This situation is, however, getting much better as the years go on and more non-Greek/Russian converts enter the Church.
As far as the “problem” of privileging the language of Arabic and Elwill’s “mystical journey” comment I’m not informed enough about the theology of Islam to really comment. It doesn’t seem to me to be as big a problem as you make it out to be and Elwill’s distinction between public prayer (which in Islam is very regimented in all kinds of ways, in contrast to contemporary Christianity) and private supplication seems apt to me.
The problem is that I’ve stated a few times in this thread that I’m not necessarily arguing about what a private prayer is versus how the ummah prays together - even some Muslims have argued that a convert should simply start out learning prayers in their local language then start learning it in Arabic (I was even suggested this during my Muslim days). If you’re still curious about this issue, I’d suggest looking deeper behind Elwill’s comments and the place of Arabic culture within Islam, and you will find that his argument regarding Islam not isolating or reflecting only one culture really does not hold water.
 
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