Contemplativeprayer.net

[InLight247]

Glimmer, from your posts, I get the feeling you have not followed along nor struggled with the rest of us throughout 235 posts to understand one another and St. Teresa’s teachings.

How easy it is to read another’s brief post, take their words out of context, and apply a meaning that is not at all what St. Teresa intended. This would prove to all the world that you are right and they are wrong, huh?

Let’s back up only one paragraph in this chapter from which Jim quoted. St. Teresa wrote:

Those who studied the many works of St. Teresa would be quick to affirm that she learned this “method” from studying *Third Spiritual Alphabet, *and if you followed this thread you would have discovered that truth. Most saints attribute everything they do to the Lord, without whom we cannot take our next breath. It is a common expression.

The entire chapter in the link is full of instruction to help others form the habit as they try to learn her method. It is the person who initiates it, without a shadow of a doubt, because this recollection is “acquired” and not supernatural as this chapter points out — even though the Lord* blesses* our effort and helps us understand what we read.

To be honest, this post of yours was a cartoon full of mockery and revealed a lack of willingness to understand. If you change your frame of mind, I’m sure the rest of us will be glad to discuss it further with you.

I agree with you. This thread contains not only postings from different members, but also various links provided. I personally read every posting and majority of the links in order to thoroughly uderstand each person’s perspective and whatever the links have to say. By doing so, I actually learned a lot.

I think it is a fair statement that the purpose of open forum is to have honest discussion with our best knowledge about the topic, and about what other members’ position, so we may give our thoughtful (name removed by moderator)ut and help each other, mostly ourselves, grow in faith and spirituality. We are not debating for debating’s sake.

 

[glimmer]

Joysong:
To be honest, this post of yours was a cartoon full of mockery and revealed a lack of willingness to understand. If you change your frame of mind, I’m sure the rest of us will be glad to discuss it further with you. I’m really sorry you perceived my comments as a mockery. I’m pretty surprised at that, but I did just realize this thread was far more extensive than I’ve realized at first. I may have missed that fact since I had it confused for some time with a similar but different thread.

 

[InLight247]

Brother Lawrence’s “The Practice of the Presence of God” is indeed good.
Like he said,”the practice of the presence of God is very helpful for mental prayer.” We cannot be with him unless we think of him often. We cannot think of him often except by a holy habit of keeping ourselves in his presence, ‘asking him for the graces we need at every moment.” (page 107)

Looking back to the Holy Spirit’s leading in my life, I feel blessed to be able to identify what I read with what I have been doing. One newly learned good idea from this book is that we ought to often stop whatever we are doing, even during spiritual reading or vocal prayer, to adore God in the depths of our hearts. I would like to practice stopping between meditation of the rosary mysteries, and giving God thanks, praises, and adoration. That should make the rosary even richer.

There are many good points worth discussion. The first question I hope to get some lights from you is this:
On page 108, it says “when we are sick we must keep constant guard over ourselves not to do, say or think anything, in an attempt to ease the pain, that might displease him. When we are attentive o God in this way, suffering will no longer be anything but sweetness, balm and consolation.”

Similar teachings are found from St. Teresa and St. John. While being fascinated with Carmelite spirituality, I always have trouble with this part. It is true if we love Christ, we should be willing to suffer with Christ. However, as loving parents we would never want our children to suffer for the suffering’s sake. I don’t believe God want his children to suffer for no reason. In the New Testament, Jesus has never refused to heal anyone. He healed them all. As I posted in another thread “The gifts of the Holy Spirit”, I have had some experiences with the Charismatic prayers and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. In the Charismatic movement, healing is a big part.

Now do you see my question?

Psalm 37:4 “Delight yourself in the Lord, He will give you the desires of your heart.”
If it is not God’s higher purpose for us to be sick, I believe if we ask for healing, we will get healing. And we use the healing to glorify God. But if we are content with suffering in sickness, He will also give us the desire of our hearts and allow us to use the suffering to honor Him.

I believe only when it is God’s higher purpose for a person to remain in sickness, we ought to hold the attitude described in Br. Lawrence’s book. But how do we know? Therefore, we should always ask for healing.

 

[blessedstar]

I hope you don’t mind me replying to your post.

I agree with what you are saying.

No person escapes suffering. Without Jesus suffering has no reason nor a purpose, infact it is completely senseless, the good suffering with the wicked. Calvary and Jesus’ sacrifice makes sense out of the senselessness of suffering.

We must always pray for suffering to be lifted from us and from others and we must seek to eleviate the sufferings of others but if God does not will it then it is for the good of the world and the Kingdom of Heaven. Some souls are called to be suffering souls and in this it is a call to live Calvary, but sooner or later this call comes to all men as every man has his own ‘passion’.

God does not desire that people suffer, but God will bring good out of every suffering.

Suffering is a great mystery. No-one has delved into the deepest depths of the Divine Mystery of Jesus’ Suffering, Passion and Death, but we can have an indication of this Mystery by seeing what came after this, the Ressurection. In faith then we can embrace our sufferings without complaint and offer them to Jesus for His Will. It is not plain to see what good these small acts do in the midst of the suffering, but with hindsight we can see that God causes great merit and works great wonders from this little imperfect offering of the suffering ‘self’.

I think the crux is that if we struggle against and complain about suffering we not only cause ourselves a great deal of distress even to the point of losing faith but we do not embrace God’s will for us and He will provide every grace and blessing if we embrace the suffering to endure the suffering as part of His Salvific plan for our own soul and the souls of others.

It helps to bear in mind that suffering as well as acts of sins against us are all brought forth from evil as we have only one enemy, satan. Evil has no stronghold over those who hand everything to Jesus. Victory over all of the world is Jesus’ by way of the Cross and if we embrace His Way and give everything to Him then we will be victorious in Him.

In Heaven there will be no more suffering, no man will sin against another nor against God, our labours in this Way will be over, but it is by the narrow road that we enter the gate and this is why all of the Saints love the Cross because it leads to Jesus.

Every man’s Calvary is coming. No Cross, no crown.

 

[blessedstar]

It is the case that men need many crosses before they are healed.

It is the case that until a man is under the cross that he begins to think of God and comes to know Jesus.

It is not until a man loves the Cross of Christ Jesus that he loves his own cross.

 

[InLight247]

I hope you don’t mind me replying to your post.

I agree with what you are saying.

No person escapes suffering. Without Jesus suffering has no reason nor a purpose, infact it is completely senseless, the good suffering with the wicked. Calvary and Jesus’ sacrifice makes sense out of the senselessness of suffering.
No Cross, no crown.

Blessedstar:
I am glad you responded. Well said.
Please be sure I have nothing against you or your posting.
Forum discussion is for everyone to grow spiritually with an open mind.
I hope you don’t mind of my straightforwardness sometimes.
Peace!

 

[DBT]

There are many good points worth discussion. The first question I hope to get some lights from you is this:
On page 108, it says “when we are sick we must keep constant guard over ourselves not to do, say or think anything, in an attempt to ease the pain, that might displease him. When we are attentive o God in this way, suffering will no longer be anything but sweetness, balm and consolation.”

Similar teachings are found from St. Teresa and St. John. While being fascinated with Carmelite spirituality, I always have trouble with this part. It is true if we love Christ, we should be willing to suffer with Christ.

I think blessedstar made some very good points. I’d only like to add two additional comments to what she said:

1. I can see how the Carmelite teaching on this might seem hard. This is, in effect, the way of detachment and abandonment – finding God’s will in all situations, be they joyful or sorrowful. In the more exalted presentations of this in Carmelite writings, one can see a certain “holy indifference” as to the manner of the Lord’s coming in the life of the soul. Joy, sorrow, consolations or torment – it simply doesn’t matter to these souls. We often see detachment of this nature in the lives of the saints – it is one indication of their “heroic virtue.”
2. With regard to Br. Lawrence, we should keep in mind that he reached the summit of the spiritual life (i.e. the spiritual marriage of St. Teresa’s 7th Dwelling) while still very young. As he aged, he moved well beyond this “holy indifference” to *actually desire *suffering - which I think is reflected to a certain degree in the quote you provided.

In fact, Br. Lawrence liked to say his “greatest suffering was that he was given nothing to suffer”, so great was the peace and joy he experienced the last 40 years of his life after emerging from the torments of the Night of the Spirit. So great was his habitual peace and joy that he sometimes remarked he felt “tricked by God” – the sufferings he expected from his life in Carmel simply never materialized, in his opinion. The irony, IMHO, is that he did if fact suffer a great deal . . . he just never saw it as such.

So as he approaced death and he began to experience pronounced physical pain, he embraced it with great enthusiasm as perhaps his one and only opportunity to suffer as Christ did. This is the mindset he was coming from when he made this quote and others like it - many, many years after living in the “perfected” state of the spiritual marriage.

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

I think blessedstar made some very good points. I’d only like to add two additional comments to what she said:

1. I can see how the Carmelite teaching on this might seem hard. This is, in effect, the way of detachment and abandonment – finding God’s will in all situations, be they joyful or sorrowful. In the more exalted presentations of this in Carmelite writings, one can see a certain “holy indifference” as to the manner of the Lord’s coming in the life of the soul. Joy, sorrow, consolations or torment – it simply doesn’t matter to these souls. We often see detachment of this nature in the lives of the saints – it is one indication of their “heroic virtue.”
2. With regard to Br. Lawrence, we should keep in mind that he reached the summit of the spiritual life (i.e. the spiritual marriage of St. Teresa’s 7th Dwelling) while still very young… Dave.

Dave,

Both you and blessedstar made excellent and helpful points. You are right. This is the way of detachment and literally heroic virtue.

For us, people who are in the lower mansions, when facing hardships, I believe our attitude should be “Have no anxiety at all (easy to say), but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God.” (Philippians 4:6)

While suffering, before it is lifted up, we ought not to complain but offer the sufferings up. If we can do this, it is at least a starting point.

A journey of thousands miles starts with a single step.

 

[blessedstar]

Dave,

Both you and blessedstar made excellent and helpful points. You are right. This is the way of detachment and literally heroic virtue.

For us, people who are in the lower mansions, when facing hardships, I believe our attitude should be “Have no anxiety at all (easy to say), but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God.” (Philippians 4:6)

While suffering, before it is lifted up, we ought not to complain but offer the sufferings up. If we can do this, it is at least a starting point.

A journey of thousands miles starts with a single step.

It is a extremely difficult to not complain when suffering especially not to complain to family and friends. It sounds easy not to complain when there is suffering upon a person, but it is most difficult and is not just a matter of will-power, it is a grace from God. To practise this way of living prayer the soul must be recollected to God or it will quickly forget it’s promise to God to not complain.

It is most difficult not to appeal to other humans or make comment upon suffering. In this kind of suffering the soul’s only confident is God and it is sometimes the case that God will not console the soul even though He is their only confident and He does this for a purpose but it can be most painful to ‘feel’ such a soul is suffering totally alone, in total abandonment, though the soul would know that God is always with it, the impact upon the suffering is increased by lack of perception of His Presence and lack of perceptible consolation. This is comparable to the desolation of Christ Jesus in that it emulates it but of course is not of the same magnitude as His sufferings, it is a ‘little’ imitation of His sufferings especially in the Garden of Gethsemane and especially at the last hour upon the Cross. So suffering is added to suffering, that is spiritual and physical sufferings.

During these times the soul may find itself persecuted and scorned in many ways. The soul may also be asked to aid others who are suffering and they speak at length about their sufferings and hardships they suffer and the soul cannot utter a word of their own but will help the other in their sufferings. Other souls will have little or no time for the silent soul in the respect that they will not even show concern for their welfare and so the soul will learn quickly not to even think to complain. Only one or two souls will grant it any kindness even though they are not aware that the soul is suffering and to the soul this kindness will cause it’s heart to burn with love but it will be bitter sweet to such a soul.

The starting place to becoming a living prayer and holocaust, is to pray a great deal and ask for the grace and the will to be one of these small souls, but it is by all accounts no small undertaking

 

[blessedstar]

I forgot to mention that satan may also assail the ‘silent’ soul and tempt it with many things when the soul is ‘silently’ suffering. Satan will appeal to the ego, he will appeal to the temper, he will appeal to the soul’s sense of justice etc, he will appeal even to the virtues and graces a soul may possess and try and use those to make the soul condemn another etc in short he will try and cause an internal battle between the soul and it’s ‘self’ and between the soul and others and between the soul and God.

Satan will attempt to destroy the souls love of the Cross, then will attempt to work down the line to destroy love of Jesus, love of others and ultimately destroy faith.

Satan will use many methods to stop souls silently suffering and offering their little sufferings to Jesus. The soul must pray constantly. When the battle is on, satan will concede when he has tried every method and way of ceasing the soul in their silent sufferings, he does not care that the soul suffers, he only cares that they silently suffer and unites their sufferings to Jesus’. When he sees that every method has not prevailed, he will leave the soul, but the soul must remain vigilant because under new sufferings satan will come with new ways pertaining to those specific sufferings.

When the soul is not suffering he will tempt them and assault them in different ways. Ironically (for satan) this too is a suffering the soul may offer.

The soul that learns quickly to accept these assaults and temptations upon it and hands this to Jesus, as a suffering united to His, will not allow satan to destroy or mar their little offering of themselves to Jesus as satan attempts all of this by trying to succeed in tempting them into sin.

During this the soul must cling even more tighter to the Cross of Christ Jesus.

It is that when a soul does not complain in suffering that they truly love the Cross and when they love the Cross they wish to always be under it and when they are not under it it is a suffering to them and so they are constantly unted to the Cross of Christ in love.

 

[blessedstar]

I think blessedstar made some very good points. I’d only like to add two additional comments to what she said:

1. I can see how the Carmelite teaching on this might seem hard. This is, in effect, the way of detachment and abandonment – finding God’s will in all situations, be they joyful or sorrowful. In the more exalted presentations of this in Carmelite writings, one can see a certain “holy indifference” as to the manner of the Lord’s coming in the life of the soul. Joy, sorrow, consolations or torment – it simply doesn’t matter to these souls. We often see detachment of this nature in the lives of the saints – it is one indication of their “heroic virtue.”
2. With regard to Br. Lawrence, we should keep in mind that he reached the summit of the spiritual life (i.e. the spiritual marriage of St. Teresa’s 7th Dwelling) while still very young. As he aged, he moved well beyond this “holy indifference” to *actually desire *suffering - which I think is reflected to a certain degree in the quote you provided.

In fact, Br. Lawrence liked to say his “greatest suffering was that he was given nothing to suffer”, so great was the peace and joy he experienced the last 40 years of his life after emerging from the torments of the Night of the Spirit. So great was his habitual peace and joy that he sometimes remarked he felt “tricked by God” – the sufferings he expected from his life in Carmel simply never materialized, in his opinion. The irony, IMHO, is that he did if fact suffer a great deal . . . he just never saw it as such.

So as he approaced death and he began to experience pronounced physical pain, he embraced it with great enthusiasm as perhaps his one and only opportunity to suffer as Christ did. This is the mindset he was coming from when he made this quote and others like it - many, many years after living in the “perfected” state of the spiritual marriage.

Dave.

Beautiful post Dave

It might be worth talking abit more about joy in the sense of suffering.

If suffering was joy then the soul would not suffer and thus have nothing to offer.

This is not the case when a soul finds joy in suffering. Their suffering is not decreased by the fact that they find joy in suffering, because it is that their love of Jesus and their love of His Cross is their joy and so they embrace the suffering with that love and joy in their hearts. Still they suffer terribly as any other man and yet they recognise that those who have not found joy in suffering suffer yet worse than they do and yet still those who do not know Christ Jesus nor have faith in Him suffer yet worse still. This is the case because they do not have the Peace that only Christ Jesus offers.

The souls that finds joy in suffering finds that their inner peace in Christ Jesus is not disturbed, part of their soul is submerged deeply into this peace, this tiny centre and although there are storms all around this tiny centre and with part of the soul hidden there in Jesus (whether they perceive Him there or not) they know that nothing can truly harm them. They may suffer great distress and great pains both physically and spiritually and part of their soul is taken up with this work, but the other part of the soul strengthens the entire soul so that the whole is not harmed and it can only strengthen the entire soul because Jesus is it’s strength, it’s refuge, it’s peace and it’s joy.

I haven’t read this any place to back it up but this seems to be the case of what is happening by all accounts and I would like for others to give their thoughts on this and any writings they may have read.

 

[DBT]

The souls that finds joy in suffering finds that their inner peace in Christ Jesus is not disturbed, part of their soul is submerged deeply into this peace, this tiny centre and although there are storms all around this tiny centre and with part of the soul hidden there in Jesus (whether they perceive Him there or not) they know that nothing can truly harm them. They may suffer great distress and great pains both physically and spiritually and part of their soul is taken up with this work, but the other part of the soul strengthens the entire soul so that the whole is not harmed and it can only strengthen the entire soul because Jesus is it’s strength, it’s refuge, it’s peace and it’s joy.

I haven’t read this any place to back it up but this seems to be the case of what is happening by all accounts and I would like for others to give their thoughts on this and any writings they may have read.

The parts I bolded, in particular, are very much St. Teresa’s sentiments in her discussion of the 7th Dwelling in “Interior Castle” – the perpetual interior peace of the perfected soul even in the midst of exterior trials and storms.

And for those of us who have yet to be transformed so completely in Christ, all of these recent posts - finding God in all the situations of life, good or bad - seem to me to fall under her discussion of the “Union of Wills” in the 5th Dwelling.

Sometimes, I think, we can get so caught up in all her discussions of mystical graces that we forget - or simply miss - what she has to say about this most important union of all . . . the Union of Wills. While her discussion of this is situated in the higher dwellings where the graces of infused contempation are addressed, one need not be a contemplative to seek this union. In fact, as she states, the “Union of Wills” is the entire essence of our faith . . . and of all the different types of union she describes, this is the only one we should seek.

Another book that addresses this “Union of Wills” at great length is “Abandonment to Divine Providence” by Fr. Jean-Pierre De Caussade. He was a French Jesuit with a Carmelite spirit very much like Br. Lawrence – in fact they lived at the same time, just a few miles apart

Dave

 

[blessedstar]

finding God in all the situations of life, good or bad - seem to me to fall under her discussion of the “Union of Wills” in the 5th Dwelling.

Sometimes, I think, we can get so caught up in all her discussions of mystical graces that we forget - or simply miss - what she has to say about this most important union of all . . . the Union of Wills. While her discussion of this is situated in the higher dwellings where the graces of infused contempation are addressed, one need not be a contemplative to seek this union. In fact, as she states, the “Union of Wills” is the entire essence of our faith . . . and it is the only union we should seek.

Another book that addresses this “Union of Wills” at great length is “Abandonment to Divine Providence” by Fr. Jean-Pierre De Caussade. He was a French Jesuit with a Carmelite spirit very much like Br. Lawrence – in fact they lived at the same time, just a few miles apart

Dave

Wonderful post!

I didn’t know of such a thing as Union of Wills in the way you have explained it ( I realised we must unite ourselves to God’s will but I have to admit I didn’t take an academic approach to this, I’m sorry I’m very simple), but this makes perfect sense to me that if a soul loves God and desires to do His Will, God knowing their heart and it’s desires most intimately,of course will give the graces to such a soul who has great desire to do His Will. A few posts back I said that mere will power is not enough to attempt to not complain when suffering, I said it took God’s grace also. But now this makes sense because first of all God looks for the will to not complain and then He will uphold the souls will in grace and a union must take place of the soul’s will with God’s will by His grace.

Thank you very much for this Dave.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

St. John of the Cross says that when a person loves a thing or person, he becomes like that obeject or person. Hence, love for Christ, makes us more like Christ, in that we begin to love as he loves.

I person who loves as Christ loves, also suffers as Christ suffered. It is the wounding effect of His love, that enables us to endure suffering.

St. Theresa the Little Flower, never adopted physical self-mortification as was common in her day. She said that life has enough thorns and crosses to use for mortification, you don’t have to create them.

Jim

 

[blessedstar]

I person who loves as Christ loves, also suffers as Christ suffered. It is the wounding effect of His love, that enables us to endure suffering.

Jim

That Jim is so beautifully said.

 

[InLight247]

And for those of us who have yet to be transformed so completely in Christ, all of these recent posts - finding God in all the situations of life, good or bad - seem to me to fall under her discussion of the “Union of Wills” in the 5th Dwelling.

Sometimes, I think, we can get so caught up in all her discussions of mystical graces that we forget - or simply miss - what she has to say about this most important union of all . . . the Union of Wills. While her discussion of this is situated in the higher dwellings where the graces of infused contempation are addressed, one need not be a contemplative to seek this union. In fact, as she states, the “Union of Wills” is the entire essence of our faith . . . and of all the different types of union she describes, this is the only one we should seek.
This is a good point. “Union of Wills” could be sought just like the presence of God could be practiced.

This union of wills is our total surrender

 

[InLight247]

Sometimes, I think, we can get so caught up in all her discussions of mystical graces that we forget - or simply miss - what she has to say about this most important union of all . . . the Union of Wills. While her discussion of this is situated in the higher dwellings where the graces of infused contempation are addressed, one need not be a contemplative to seek this union. In fact, as she states, the “Union of Wills” is the entire essence of our faith . . . and of all the different types of union she describes, this is the only one we should seek.
Dave

This union of wills is our total surrender and total obedience to God’s will, a true “Thy Will be done” attitude and determination where one wants nothing else but God’s will only. It can only be acquired through complete trust and complete love of God with His help and grace.

“Whom else have I in the heaven?
None beside you delights me on earth.”

 

[InLight247]

. It is the wounding effect of His love, that enables us to endure suffering.
Jim

This paragraph about Brother Lawrence interprets the above:
“Pardon me,” he said, “I am in pain. My side hurts but my spirit is at peace.” But they added, “if God wanted you to suffer these pains for ten years, would you be willing?” “I would be,” he said, “not only for that number of years, but I would gladly consent to endure these suffering until the Day of Judgment, if God wanted, and I would hope he would give me the grace to always remain so resigned.”(page 121)

That is truly heroic!

 

[InLight247]

It is a extremely difficult to not complain when suffering especially not to complain to family and friends.
… it is by all accounts no small undertaking

Very true!
I guess whining and complaining are the same thing.
A person in hardships may not actually “complaining” but it is so easy to whine and get anxious.

I was amazed to read about Brother Lawrence’s steadfastness and how he rose above the fear and hope of everything but God.

His virture is the true realization of **“What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? As it it written: ‘For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered,’ No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” **(Romans 8:35-39)

It becomes a little bit easier while fixing our eyes on Christ.

 

[Teelynn]

I’ve been lurking alot on this particular forum and finally decided I had to start posting. I’m an aspirant with the Secular Discalced Carmelites so have a great deal of interest in this topic.

I would have to say that for me, prayer is possibly one of the most important aspects if not the most in my faith. I quoted Jim R above for a very specific reason. The test that Jesus gives us for anything is the fruit. Your statement shows a lack of charity and it saddens me. Next to our prayer life should be our striving for holiness and sanctity - we are all called to be saints. The fruit of the Spirit is the test of such prayer methods, and your words don’t set a very good example.

Deekod 1967 - I checked that website that you posted at the start. There is one warning bell that rings for me. Fr William giving a talk on the use of enneagrams. This is classic New Age philosophy and syncretism. I invite you to read this article:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1004

In addition to St John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, and St Therese, Fr Dubay (all excellent reading) you might also appreciate ‘Carmelite Spirituality in the Teresian Tradition’ by Paul-Marie of the Cross, OCD. This is an excellent introductory book to Carmelite Saints and contemplation.

In Jesus and Mary,

Is this not a good example of what Jesus warned us of? Pretty simplistic to put it that way, but I guess I call it like it is. “Beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.”
Lucy