Contemplativeprayer.net

[DBT]

However, as long as you post misinformation, I will continue to respond to it.

Just wondering . . .

Why can’t someone be skeptical and cautious toward centering prayer AND have an informed opinion about it at the same time?

Are the ONLY informed people those who agree with your point of view?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Just wondering . . .

Why can’t someone be skeptical and cautious toward centering prayer AND have an informed opinion about it at the same time?

Are the ONLY informed people those who agree with your point of view?

Being informed with facts verses misinformation is the issue.

As long as misinformation is being posted, I’ll respond to it.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Just wondering . . .

Why can’t someone be skeptical and cautious toward centering prayer AND have an informed opinion about it at the same time?

If the information is true, that’s one thing. If what is being presented as fact when it’s not, that’s another.

Are the ONLY informed people those who agree with your point of view?

As far as Centering Prayer goes, how can one be informed if they’re presenting false information?

It’s like being in a fundamentalist web-site and reading attacks against Catholic doctrine. They claim to have the truth. Is it really just a matter of their point of veiw verses mine? Should I point out the misinformation they’re posting, or just remain silent?

Jim

 

[DBT]

Oh, Jim . . . you’re really not helping yourself out to much Continuing to label people as “misinformed” simply because they don’t agree with your interpretation of things doesn’t strike me as a very effective way of presenting a convincing arguement.

People can take an opinion contray to yours on the issue of centering prayer and still have an informed opinion.

Really, they can.

 

[Joysong]

JimR:

It’s like being in a fundamentalist web-site and reading attacks against Catholic doctrine. They claim to have the truth. Is it really just a matter of their point of veiw verses mine? Should I point out the misinformation they’re posting, or just remain silent?

The truth is that it is not simply a fundamentalist web-site, but a Catholic one. And it is not simply a point of view, it is a serious matter concerning a highly controversial prayer form that is being disseminated without regard for the action of the Holy Spirit and the readiness of the person to practice it. This discussion is beginning to sound “circular,” for we have been around this mulberry bush many times over.

You have presented your view, and some of us have voiced an alternate one. Shouldn’t we let the person decide, and leave room for the Holy Spirit to guide them? It does little good to keep re-presenting, for in the final analysis, the decision is not ours.

 

[InLight247]

After I read the book “Crisis of Faith” by Fr. Thomas Keating, I was very impressed. That was such a profound book. So I was attracted to his other book - “Intimacy with God – An Introduction to Centering Prayer”.

I don’t know much about Centering prayer, only the basics. It is true Keating was exposed to oriental Zen and some Hindu Transcendental Meditation. However, Keating’s theory of Centering prayer is based on the teaching of “The Cloud of Unknowing” by an anonymous fourteenth century author and St. John of the Cross. Its source is the Trinity dwelling in us. It is rooted in God’s life within us.

I know some Catholics like to study Zen. Personally I am very against it. Zen meditation advocates void and emptiness of the mind. It is very dangerous. Though Keating is friendly with Zen masters, it does not seem there is any Zen theory or method in Centering prayer. Keating’s purpose is to lead Christian people back to Christian meditation and contemplation.

It is true whoever peruses spirituality has to be careful and cautious. The bottom line is to be Christ centered. I don’t see anything wrong of using sacred words such as “Jesus Christ”, “Lord Jesus” as a mantra to get to the presence of God. Consent to God’s presence is not putting one’s mind to void. It is self-surrender and trust in God.
But a person has to be very solid in his faith and know what he is doing to practice such spirituality.

Keating’s own word said “It is not contemplation in the strict sense, which in Catholic tradition has always been regarded as a pure gift of the Spirit, but rather it is a preparation for contemplation by reducing the obstacles caused by the hyperactivity of our minds and of our lives.”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

After I read the book “Crisis of Faith” by Fr. Thomas Keating, I was very impressed. That was such a profound book. So I was attracted to his other book - “Intimacy with God – An Introduction to Centering Prayer”.

I don’t know much about Centering prayer, only the basics. It is true Keating was exposed to oriental Zen and some Hindu Transcendental Meditation. However, Keating’s theory of Centering prayer is based on the teaching of “The Cloud of Unknowing” by an anonymous fourteenth century author and St. John of the Cross. Its source is the Trinity dwelling in us. It is rooted in God’s life within us.

I know some Catholics like to study Zen. Personally I am very against it. Zen meditation advocates void and emptiness of the mind. It is very dangerous. Though Keating is friendly with Zen masters, it does not seem there is any Zen theory or method in Centering prayer. Keating’s purpose is to lead Christian people back to Christian meditation and contemplation.

It is true whoever peruses spirituality has to be careful and cautious. The bottom line is to be Christ centered. I don’t see anything wrong of using sacred words such as “Jesus Christ”, “Lord Jesus” as a mantra to get to the presence of God. Consent to God’s presence is not putting one’s mind to void. It is self-surrender and trust in God.
But a person has to be very solid in his faith and know what he is doing to practice such spirituality.

Keating’s own word said “It is not contemplation in the strict sense, which in Catholic tradition has always been regarded as a pure gift of the Spirit, but rather it is a preparation for contemplation by reducing the obstacles caused by the hyperactivity of our minds and of our lives.”

BTW, I just read recently, that the reason why Fr Keating and Basil Pennington got involved with Buddhist and Hindu’s, was because the Vatican Congregation on Intereligious Dialog, asked them to. In fact, they had a conference in Petersham, MA, where the Vatican Head attended.

BTW, Zen isn’t emptying of the mind either. Zen Buddhism is, but Zen in principle is about removing what isn’t real and seeing what is. Zen Christianity would probably be a good thing for Catholics. Perhaps then we wouldn’t be constantly hearing rediculous news stories about miracles, whenever an image of the Blessed Mother shows up in the condensation on building windows, or an image of Jesus shows up in a grilled cheese sandwich.

Jim

 

[DBT]

However, Keating’s theory of Centering prayer is based on the teaching of “The Cloud of Unknowing” by an anonymous fourteenth century author and St. John of the Cross.

I’ve read Fr. Keating and see how he likes to hitch his wagon to St. John of the Cross. IMHO, he simply states it as fact . . . without ever really showing how.

What’s really telling to me is what I’ve seen - or rather not seen - within Carmel about centering prayer and it’s supposed links to St. John of the Cross. I haven’t caught a whiff of that within my community, within my province or in any of the national Carmelite literature.

While no doubt some Carmelites practice CP, my gut tells me it’s not a practice of the majority for the reasons I just stated. From my experience, CP just isn’t discussed as any sort of primary focus within most communities - again IMHO. And I doubt an individual who approached a Carmelite community with the intention of being taught CP would be given the response he/she expected.

Along those lines, it’s also interesting to me a recent article I saw by Fr. Deeny - the head of our entire order - about grounds for dismissing a member from community. The specific example he cited was in those instances when a member spent to much time talking about things like Marian apparitions. While there’s nothing wrong with that in general, his point was that it was an indication of a lack of vocation to Carmel and that there’s other organizations within the Church that would probably be more suitable for such an individual. My guess is that dwelling on things like CP in Carmelite community would fall into the same set of circumstances.

Just giving my 2 cents based on personal experience. No doubt others might have a different point of view

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

BTW, I just read recently, that the reason why Fr Keating and Basil Pennington got involved with Buddhist and Hindu’s, was because the Vatican Congregation on Intereligious Dialog, asked them to. In fact, they had a conference in Petersham, MA, where the Vatican Head attended.

BTW, Zen isn’t emptying of the mind either. Zen Buddhism is, but Zen in principle is about removing what isn’t real and seeing what is. Zen Christianity would probably be a good thing for Catholics. Perhaps then we wouldn’t be constantly hearing rediculous news stories about miracles, whenever an image of the Blessed Mother shows up in the condensation on building windows, or an image of Jesus shows up in a grilled cheese sandwich.
Jim

I don’t know any difference between Zen and Buddhist Zen? To me they are the same. Zen is rooted from Buddhism.

As far as I know, Zen advocates emptiness and void of the mind. That’s my understanding.

And I don’t know anything about Zen Christianity? Never heard of it.
I think Christianity is Christianity, should not added anything to it. Don’t you agree?

 

[Joysong]

Hi Dave,

I noted some of your comments were also written in the Profile of an OCDS, but I found this exceptional paragraph that you echoed somewhere in our discussions:

I am sanctified by the practice of the virtues, which is the direct result of a life of prayerful searching for God’s will in my life. This is the Carmelite secret - prayer does not make us holy. Prayer is the essential element in Christian (Carmelite) holiness because it is the frequent contact necessary to remain faithful to God. This contact allows God to do His will in my life which then announces to the whole world God’s presence and goodness. Without the contact of prayer I cannot know God, and God cannot be known to others.

My understanding is that even though one is an ardent practitioner of CP or any other form of prayer, unless they are growing in the virtues through following God’s will for them, prayer is simply the means, not the end.

And of course, this paragraph is primary:

The writings of Saint Teresa of Jesus are the expression of the charism of the Discalced Carmelites. The spirituality of the Discalced Carmelites has a very well based intellectual foundation. There is a doctrine involved here. Doctrine comes from docere, Latin for ‘to teach’. Any person who wants to be a Discalced Carmelite must be a person with an interest in learning from the teachers of Carmel. There are three Doctors of the universal Church, Teresa, John and Therese.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t know any difference between Zen and Buddhist Zen? To me they are the same. Zen is rooted from Buddhism.

As far as I know, Zen advocates emptiness and void of the mind. That’s my understanding.

And I don’t know anything about Zen Christianity? Never heard of it.
I think Christianity is Christianity, should not added anything to it. Don’t you agree?

There is Zen Auto Mechanics, Zen Bicycle repair and you name it.

In short, Zen is mindfulness. You can apply Zen to anything. In of itself, Zen isn’t religion.

In Zen Christianity, from what I understood, it’s actuually mindfulness of a Christ centered life. It’s accepting the reality of Christ for who He is, rather than searching for the consolations, miracles and whatever, that we tend desire. There is really nothing added to Christianity other than this. St. John of the Cross teaches detachment from our desires which keeps us from growing towards, union with Christ. The is in essence, Zen Christianity.

All that being said, Christians don’t need to learn Zen. Christianity has all that Zen teaches and it’s far deeper and richer.

Myself, I love to study comparitive religion. It’s how I learned a little about Zen.

Jim

 

[DBT]

I noted some of your comments were also written in the Profile of an OCDS

Yes, this is the article!

While Fr. Deeney is talking about Marian aspects in the quote below, I think what he says also applies to why you don’t hear things like CP talked about in Carmelite community to any significant degree. In fact I’ve never heard it discussed - whether in my local community, in the Oklahoma Province or by our national leaders. Fr. Keating might see links to St. John of the Cross, but I don’t think it’s a two way street.

A very frequent experience of many groups is to have a person approach the Secular Order to become a member, sometimes a diocesan priest, who is very devoted to Mary, a person who has been on many pilgrimages to Marian shrines throughout the world, a person who is very familiar with many of the apparitions and messages attributed to Mary, a real authority on current Marian movements. Many times they do not have the slightest inclination to Ameditate in the heart@. They desire quickly to become the >teachers= of the community about the Blessed Mother and introduce an entirely un-Carmelite strain of Marian interest into the community. If this person is a priest, it is very difficult for the community to protect itself from this detour in its Marian life. There are other Marian groups and movements that might be the home for this person, but it is not the Secular Order.

 

[InLight247]

… Carmelites …
Dave.

I don’t know anything about Carmelites practice and her rules.

Fr. Keating said daily rosary devotion will lead us to a deepening friendship with Christ.
In one part of the CP introduction book I read, he suggests to use rosary as the basis for our conversation with Christ. While praying rosary with meditation, try to rest in God, when the sense of resting in God passes, go back to the recitation of the rosary where we left off. I usually pray all four mysteries of rosary. Rosary brings me closer to Christ. So I think Fr. Keating gives a very good advice here.

I do find a very different point between what Keating said and what St. Teresa of Avila said about contemplation.

Keating said “In actual fact, contemplation is not the reward of a virtuous life. It is a necessity for a virtuous life.” (Intimacy With God, p. 118)
St. Teresa said infused prayer is not achievable unless God gives it. Unless we go through purification and become holy, we cannot have the complete union. If we are not pure, we cannot have union with the Pure. Fr. Keating believes if one has the motivation, one can be led to contemplation.

The question is there are different stages of contemplation.
St. Teresa has 7 mansions: Prayer of recollection(3rd), Prayer of quiet(4th), prayer of union(5th), ecstatic prayer(6th), spiritual marriage (7th). They are all part of contemplation. I am not sure if prayer of recollection counts as part of contemplation. But form 4th mansion and up must be contemplation.

Maybe when Teresa said only the pure can have union with the Pure, she meant from certain Mansions above. Maybe in Keating’s theory of “motivation leads one to make efforts and reach contemplation”, he was talking about the very basic form?

I am just thinking out loud.

One thing is for sure - working on the virtues and striving for holiness are necessary for better union with God.

 

[Joysong]

InLight:

Keating said “In actual fact, contemplation is not the reward of a virtuous life. It is a necessity for a virtuous life.” (Intimacy With God, p. 118)
St. Teresa said infused prayer is not achievable unless God gives it. Unless we go through purification and become holy, we cannot have the complete union. If we are not pure, we cannot have union with the Pure.

Dear Light,

You gave a page reference for Fr. Keating – could you please supply a reference for St. Teresa’s words? I honestly do not remember reading anything like this from her writings. Was it Keating’s quote pertaining to her? Or something you came across from either Teresa or one of her biographers?

I’m not sure what you meant by “union?”
… the mystical prayer of union, which is an advanced stage of infused contemplation?
… a stage of union that one is able to achieve, even without infused gifts of contemplation? [5th mansion]
… transforming union as in mystical marriage? [7th mansion]

If you meant the last, transforming union, then I agree completely, that it requires total purification that many refer to as the Dark Night.

Fr. Keating believes if one has the motivation, one can be led to contemplation.

It would be helpful to know how he referred to this, for “active” contemplation is possible for many; whereas, “infused” contemplation (from God) is not possible … even with motivation.

I realize this might sound confusing, and even in Carmel it requires a good understanding of terminology before we are able to grasp the true meaning of these writers. If this is so necessary for formation in Carmelite spirituality, how much more difficult will it be for a casual reader to pick up Keating’s book and expect to understand without any spiritual help? I guess that’s the basis of our concerns when we speak about cautions. But not only for Keating, I have seen complete misunderstanding of Teresa’s works, as well. You have done well to read Fire Within to learn some of this background.

 

[InLight247]

Dear Light,

You gave a page reference for Fr. Keating – could you please supply a reference for St. Teresa’s words? I honestly do not remember reading anything like this from her writings. Was it Keating’s quote pertaining to her? Or something you came across from either Teresa or one of her biographers?

I’m not sure what you meant by “union?”
… the mystical prayer of union, which is an advanced stage of infused contemplation?
… a stage of union that one is able to achieve, even without infused gifts of contemplation? [5th mansion]
… transforming union as in mystical marriage? [7th mansion]

If you meant the last, transforming union, then I agree completely, that it requires total purification that many refer to as the Dark Night.

It would be helpful to know how he referred to this, for “active” contemplation is possible for many; whereas, “infused” contemplation (from God) is not possible … even with motivation.

I realize this might sound confusing, and even in Carmel it requires a good understanding of terminology before we are able to grasp the true meaning of these writers. If this is so necessary for formation in Carmelite spirituality, how much more difficult will it be for a casual reader to pick up Keating’s book and expect to understand without any spiritual help? I guess that’s the basis of our concerns when we speak about cautions. But not only for Keating, I have seen complete misunderstanding of Teresa’s works, as well. You have done well to read Fire Within to learn some of this background.

The part I stated about St. Teresa’s saying is from the book of “Fire Within”. It has been mentioned several places in that book about “being pure in order to have union with The Pure”. The statement I put in my previous posting is not a direct quote; otherwise I will give the page number. I am pretty sure this “union” is the transforming union, the ultimate form. I can go to look for the information and provide the exact wording, but that will take some time. I will let you know when I find it.

Like you said, the reading could be puzzling without guidance. And guidance in the area of contemplation is what I am lacking of. That’s why I was thinking out loud and hope some experienced person can shed some light.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Light,

That makes perfect sense to me in the context you just mentioned. Thanks for restating, but you don’t need to provide a page number, now that we know the source and the meaning.

Maybe for others’ sake, it might be good to post what Teresa wrote of union in the 5th mansion, that is attained without contemplative gifts from God.

Despite all I have said, this Mansion seems to me a little obscure. There is a great deal to be gained by entering it, and those from whom the Lord withholds such supernatural gifts will do well to feel that they are not without hope; for true union can quite well be achieved, with the favour of Our Lord, if we endeavour to attain it by not following our own will but submitting it to whatever is the will of God. Oh, how many of us there are who say we do this and think we want nothing else, and would die for this truth, as I believe I have said! For I tell you, and I shall often repeat this, that when you have obtained this favour from the Lord, you need not strive for that other delectable union which has been described, [she’s speaking of the supernatural *prayer of union]

for the most valuable thing about it is that it proceeds from this union which I am now describing; and we cannot attain to the heights I have spoken of if we are not sure that we have the union in which we resign our wills to the will of God.
I have said a great deal about this elsewhere, sisters, because I know that, if we were to fail here, we should be lost.

May the Lord grant us never to fail, and, if that is to be so, I tell you that you must not cease to beg His Majesty for the union which I have described. It may be that you have experienced devotion and consolations, so that you think you have reached this stage, and even enjoyed some brief period of suspension in the Prayer of Quiet, which some people always take to mean that everything is accomplished. But, believe me, if you find you are lacking in this virtue, you have not yet attained union.

So ask Our Lord to grant you this perfect love for your neighbour, and allow His Majesty to work, and, if you use your best endeavours and strive after this in every way that you can, He will give you more even than you can desire.

catholictreasury.info/InteriorCastle/ic15.htm

Just to clarify, this is not describing the transforming union of spiritual marriage.

 

[DBT]

I don’t know anything about Carmelites practice and her rules.

Hi InLight!

I think you and Joysong have worked your way through many of the issues you raised in your post to me, so I probably don’t have to elaborate on that. However, I’d like to clarify something in case I’ve mistakenly given the wrong impression to anyone.

Just to be clear, I’m not “against” Fr. Keating and his teachings . . . In fact I stated earlier that I’ve found him helpful in some ways. What I’ve been responding to in these recent posts is what I see as a curious situation.

Fr. Keating likes to draw ties to the Carmelite saints — primarily, I think, to give himself a bit of credibility. However, my experience has been that most Carmelites are not enthusiastic in return. Why? Well, the answer really is quite simple. What he teaches - in the context of Contempative Outreach - is not what St. Teresa taught. And a Carmelite’s responsibility (as detailed in the previous linked article) is to Teresa first, John second and all other Carmelite saints third. One has to be very careful in Carmel about getting to involved with other spiritualities outside this core grouping, lest the “detour” in Fr. Deeney’s words becomes a distraction to the individual or the community.

What I’ve been thinking about lately is that if CP was truly the modern incarnation of the teachings of John and Teresa as some like to say, then the Church would have no need for an organization like Contemplative Outreach. Why? Because the Carmelite Order would be doing this work itself. It’s not.

When one looks at the history of mystical thought within the Church for the last 2,000 years it becomes pretty evident that there are many different strains, variants and schools of thought. Fr. Keating fits in there somewhere . . . but not in the realm of Carmel, IMHO.

I’ve stated over the last 2 years on these forums that I do see certain parallels between the teachings of Fr. Keating and Carmel . . . but there’s also many significant divergences - as you yourself have noted in your recent posts. CP and Carmelite spirituality is not the nice clean fit some might wish . . . it’s more like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

Dave

 

[JimR-OCDS]

CP and Carmelite spirituality is not the nice clean fit some might wish .

If you’re a Carmelite CP is a good fit, because CP is used within the context of Carmelite Spirituality. The last spiritual assistant of my OCDS group, Father Anthony Haglof, OCD, approved and spoke with me about CP.

Peggy Wilkerson OCDS, teaches CP, although I don’t believe she refered to it by name in her book, “The Mystic Within,” the method she describes, is the same. Fr Anthony Haglof OCD wrote the Forward.

Like I said way back, when I came to Carmel, I was already doing Centering Prayer and it was relating to St. Teresa and John of the Cross’s teachings that inspired me to become a Carmelite. I could easily relate to what they taught, to my own experience, i.e. “a nice fit.”

I’m not alone here, I have met other Carmelites, who in fact do Centering Prayer and some, don’t even know it. When they learn what Centering Prayer is, they respond, “OH, I already do that.”

Your rejection of CP, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a “nice fit”
as you put it, with Caremlite Spirituality.

CP fits with Benedictine, Franciscan and Carmelite Spiritualities, because they all drawn to the same thing, contemplation.

In Christ
Jim

 

[DBT]

I’m not alone here, I have met other Carmelites, who in fact do Centering Prayer and some, don’t even know it. When they learn what Centering Prayer is, they respond, “OH, I already do that.”

And I’ve said as much on this very thread.

Your rejection of CP, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a “nice fit” as you put it, with Caremlite Spirituality.

I didn’t reject it. I just said it’s not what St. Teresa taught — which is why, IMHO, you don’t see CP taught in Carmelite community. Maybe your experience is otherwise . . .

Dave

 

[InLight247]

Joysong:

Thanks for the link:catholictreasury.info/Int…astle/ic15.htm

Finishing reading the site, these are the lines stand out for me:

*But here the Lord asks only two things of us: love for His Majesty and love for our neighbour. It is for these two virtues that we must strive, and if we attain them perfectly we are doing His will and so shall be united with Him.

So ask Our Lord to grant you this perfect love for your neighbour, and allow His Majesty to work, and, if you use your best endeavours and strive after this in every way that you can, He will give you more even than you can desire.*

Contemplation is my longing, and a mystry to me. In stead of worrying much about this or that method, my current goal is working toward holiness. It is a long road to freedom, winding, steep and high. But how else to arrive the destination unless following the road map - practicing the virtues ?