A
Augustine
Guest
Just follow the link for his interview. He speaks of a foreign god and skips the Incarnation, not the words of an abbot…
- Status
A
Augustine
Guest
Jim,
With all due respect, but where are Grace and the Cross in this summary of Fr. Keating’s teachings? I tried, I couldn’t find them.
Honestly, as a former new-ager, I see the same language used by orientalists and occultists and the same basic gnostic, impersonal approach to the Divine. Not a peep about sin and Mercy, nor about virtues and charity.
If you state that this summary is representative of Fr. Keating’s teachings, none of my comments did any injustice to CP.
With all due respect, but where are Grace and the Cross in this summary of Fr. Keating’s teachings? I tried, I couldn’t find them.
Honestly, as a former new-ager, I see the same language used by orientalists and occultists and the same basic gnostic, impersonal approach to the Divine. Not a peep about sin and Mercy, nor about virtues and charity.
If you state that this summary is representative of Fr. Keating’s teachings, none of my comments did any injustice to CP.
D
DBT
Guest
And this is precisely the trap of spiritual attachements St. John speaks at great length about.
Without a solid grounding in the writings of the Doctors or practice under the guidence of a spiritual director, it is doubtful the average CP practicioner would even know they’ve fallen into this kind of error . . . and error it is.
Why wouldn’t they know, one might ask? Because, IMHO, because Fr. Keating just doesn’t emphasize problems, pitfalls and traps to the same degree as the Doctors — just as he doesn’t stress the primacy of the practice of virtue as the path to and proof of contemplation as they do. It is because of these differences in emphasis between what Fr. Keating teaches and what the Doctors *absolutely stress above all else *that many people end up seeing nothing but method.
It’s for these reasons, IMHO, there’s historically been so little “fruit” in these discussions.
B
blessedstar
Guest
I agree DBT.
When we lie on our deathbed, unable to do little, at this time our soul has unimaginable struggles at the last hour and what fancy prayer can we come up with, what method will we be able to focus on? In that hour the Holy Spirit comes and helps us to pray and our Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary prays for us along with our Guardian Angel.
In that hour our heart will simply pray whatever it can muster by God’s grace and this prayer of agony will be our greatest prior to, God willing, full union with God.
I have been in two situations that were dire and for all the prayers I have said in my own words and all the ideas and teachings only two things came to me at those dangerous times…in one,‘God help me’ and the other situation the Lord’s Prayer, the ‘Our Father’
Method is like a child holding onto a toy. We are called to be stripped and when we are stripped we are detached and when we are detached we are recreated and when we are recreated we are transformed and when we are transformed we are led to the possible gift of union with God. A long road that is as arduous as Calvary, too long for any method, but a road of God’s making and God’s grace and can be done in the blink of an eye or as long as a lifetime and no method can create it or hurry it along.
When we lie on our deathbed, unable to do little, at this time our soul has unimaginable struggles at the last hour and what fancy prayer can we come up with, what method will we be able to focus on? In that hour the Holy Spirit comes and helps us to pray and our Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mother Mary prays for us along with our Guardian Angel.
In that hour our heart will simply pray whatever it can muster by God’s grace and this prayer of agony will be our greatest prior to, God willing, full union with God.
I have been in two situations that were dire and for all the prayers I have said in my own words and all the ideas and teachings only two things came to me at those dangerous times…in one,‘God help me’ and the other situation the Lord’s Prayer, the ‘Our Father’
Method is like a child holding onto a toy. We are called to be stripped and when we are stripped we are detached and when we are detached we are recreated and when we are recreated we are transformed and when we are transformed we are led to the possible gift of union with God. A long road that is as arduous as Calvary, too long for any method, but a road of God’s making and God’s grace and can be done in the blink of an eye or as long as a lifetime and no method can create it or hurry it along.
B
blessedstar
Guest
Exactly and what a rut to be stuck in!And the worst thing someone who’s being called to get closer to God could do is to try to repeat this or that experience: that’s a sure way to go nowhere at best or to fall into the sin of pride at worst.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Speaks of a foreign god and skips the incarnation?Just follow the link for his interview. He speaks of a foreign god and skips the Incarnation, not the words of an abbot…
He’s being interviewed. He’s answering the questions given to him, about the history of centering prayer and how it came to him.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
Well I give up.
No amount of explanation will open the hearts of those who are closed to anything other than what they believe about Centering Prayer.
The bottom line is, that the Holy Spirit has to lead you to it in order to grasp it.
So be it!
Jim
No amount of explanation will open the hearts of those who are closed to anything other than what they believe about Centering Prayer.
The bottom line is, that the Holy Spirit has to lead you to it in order to grasp it.
So be it!
Jim
B
blessedstar
Guest
So are we all unenlightened and ignorant then?Well I give up.
No amount of explanation will open the hearts of those who are closed to anything other than what they believe about Centering Prayer.
The bottom line is, that the Holy Spirit has to lead you to it in order to grasp it.
So be it!
Jim
Do you grasp it but refuse to explain it? Are you then better enlightened than the rest of us?
Are we all closed or is it you who is closed to what others are saying?
It cuts both ways Jim, the Holy Spirit does many things, perhaps the Holy Spirit has not enlightened you to what CP is.
I don’t think what you said was a learned concept of the Holy Spirit and it’s not a good idea to use the Holy Spirit to support a view in any given debate.
I
InLight247
Guest
In the book you recommand to read “Finding the Mystics Within You” by Peggy Wilkinson O.C.D.S, chapter 6, Approaches to Contemplative Prayer, page 111 -112, "Another approach to contemplative prayer, which has been gaining in popularity in recent years aided by the excellent writings on the subject, is “Centering Prayer”, which makes use of one word to draw the attention inward to its center to rest in God. …“Slowly and effortlessly repeat your word. Allow it to lead you more and more deeply into God’s presence at the center of your being, where you are in God and God in you.” (Finding Grace at the Center, Thomas Keating, OCSO; p.63) Quoted by Peggy Wilkinson.
This above Chapter title “Approaches to Contemplative Prayer”, the word ‘approach’, to me means ‘method’. What I am trying to say is according to this Carmelite, Peggy Wilkinson, CP is one of the approaches to contemplation, CP is not condemned in Peggy’s book.
Peggy continued to point out the Ignatius’ “Spiritual Exercises”, a step by step method of inner discernment and spiritual growth which has been found very helpful by both religious and laity, especially in directed retreat situations. (word by word copied from page 112). So I don’ t really see the fault of “method”. St. Ignatius has developed a method.
With that stated, I don’t think anyone here has said “those Great Carmelite Saints are secondary to Fr Keating’s method”.
How could anyone be better than the church doctors? There is no question there.
The Church Doctors have profound teachings on spirituality.
A contemplative soul lives in God twenty four hours a day.
In Him we live, move, and have our being. When we constantly have our being in Him, He constantly remains in our being.
Or, should we say, when a soul lives , moves and has his being in the Lord, that soul starts to become contemplative.
Peace and love in Christ!
B
blessedstar
Guest
Some time ago I recommended the book you have quoted from to this forum. The book is excellent. I don’t agree with people practising CP, even those that deem themselves advanced in prayer,and though that book does speak of CP as you have quoted still I don’t agree with it. That doesn’t mean the rest of the book is no good, it is very good.
CP does pre-suppose the gift of contemplation because to enter into the centre of the soul is to enter into the 7th Mansion. No soul can force themselves there, it is the Lord’s abode, His Kingdom, it is Heaven because of Him and He will take up residence and invite the soul to this tiny infinite place and whilst the desire to enter here is good it is not good to try and enter there unless invited because this is akin to breaking and entering. The soul may believe it is ‘centered’ and has reached this prized place but may have taken a very bad turn which will take time to come back from and purgation not to mention much confusion in the soul. To attempt to enter the centre of our souls by our own means is nothing but pride all the way. It would be far better for the soul simply not to try to force the Lord’s hand and to follow Him being attentive to His workings and actions in their soul and seek guidance from their Confessor or a Spiritual Director and from the writings of the Great Carmelite Saints to help them understand this beautiful but arduous journey to the centre of the soul.
I often wonder when people speak about contemplation if they have the gift of it. I cannot say I do, I can’t comment. But so many speak of contemplation and recommend this practise and that practise as if they themselves had the precious gift from God and as if they can plan a way to achieve the giving of this gift. They recommend things to try, paths, roads, methods etc when they have no experience of contemplation. That being the case I will be led by those who have experienced contemplation and union with God and that would be St Teresa and St John who simply prayed and followed the Lord’s lead being humble enough not to force anything even though they desired it.
T
ThisOne
Guest
I believe strongly that CP is an “approach” in the narrowly literal meaning of the word – **to draw near to **. If proponents of CP mean the word in that sense, then I agree with them. But CP is in no way a method of contemplation.
CP is without question not a method of contemplation. CP is to contemplation what a newborn’s cry is to Shakespeare.
It’s what should be *a very short road * to a point that is **nearer **to contemplation than the point at which an individual (before learning or practicing CP) began. Though nearer, however, it is still light years away.
To stay on a road that only leads one just oh so very slightly nearer to where one wants to go is foolhardy and pointless. To cling to such a road is insane! That is what is dangerous. For the ego purposes of some, the unwitting are ensnared and led away from truth.
Again: an approach is not a method. Yes, the word is often used to mean a way of doing, but that’s not the right sense of the word when discussing what CP is and what some people who write about it actually mean.
Because of the confusion and the tendency among some to see it as real preparation for contemplation, I think it should be used sparingly and for a very, very short period of time – and only by people who start out totally devoid of any interior prayer.
CP is without question not a method of contemplation. CP is to contemplation what a newborn’s cry is to Shakespeare.
It’s what should be *a very short road * to a point that is **nearer **to contemplation than the point at which an individual (before learning or practicing CP) began. Though nearer, however, it is still light years away.
To stay on a road that only leads one just oh so very slightly nearer to where one wants to go is foolhardy and pointless. To cling to such a road is insane! That is what is dangerous. For the ego purposes of some, the unwitting are ensnared and led away from truth.
Again: an approach is not a method. Yes, the word is often used to mean a way of doing, but that’s not the right sense of the word when discussing what CP is and what some people who write about it actually mean.
Because of the confusion and the tendency among some to see it as real preparation for contemplation, I think it should be used sparingly and for a very, very short period of time – and only by people who start out totally devoid of any interior prayer.
B
blessedstar
Guest
A
Augustine
Guest
Bravo!
I myself don’t care whether God will lead me to contemplate Him in this life or not, as long as by His grace I can contemplate His face in the eternal life. I don’t care how close to Him He’ll lead me, as long as He keeps me among His flock.
As St. Therese said, a full bucket and a full thimble are both filled to the maximum. That’s all I desire, to be filled by God, aware that I am no bucket.
Darn, I can’t even say that the beasts beyond the moat don’t attract me and have no power over me!
D
DBT
Guest
You know, it might be interesting to see what St. Teresa herself said of such things. The debate we’re having here was one that was not unknown in her time as well.
Here is a piece from Chapter 31 of “The Way of Perfection” which I sometimes see as a veiled reference to what CP practioners refer to as the sacred word:
Teresa is describing a soul already in the midst of infused contemplation and she is giving one of her many lessons on how one might turn away from interior distractions at such a time. This soul has passed beyond the prayer of recollection and is currently experiencing the prayer of quiet (4th dwelling place).
Thus, the meaning and use of “the word” is completely different in Teresa’s mind than what is taught in CP circles. This is no pre-cursor to contemplation . . . it is an aid in contemplation itself --a means to turn away from one’s thoughts and rest more deeply in the Lord’s presence. Perhaps, God willing, distractions will cease and the soul will be brought into even deeper union . . . the prayer of union itself (5th dwelling place).
Now, compare that quote to this one from “Interior Castle”:
Some might think this all just semantics . . . but the difference between what Teresa teaches and what is taught in CP circles is profound.
Dave
Here is a piece from Chapter 31 of “The Way of Perfection” which I sometimes see as a veiled reference to what CP practioners refer to as the sacred word:
I hesitated posting this any earlier in this thread in concern her words would be taken out of context. What is absolutely crucial to understand is when a soul should behave in such a manner in prayer.
Teresa is describing a soul already in the midst of infused contemplation and she is giving one of her many lessons on how one might turn away from interior distractions at such a time. This soul has passed beyond the prayer of recollection and is currently experiencing the prayer of quiet (4th dwelling place).
Thus, the meaning and use of “the word” is completely different in Teresa’s mind than what is taught in CP circles. This is no pre-cursor to contemplation . . . it is an aid in contemplation itself --a means to turn away from one’s thoughts and rest more deeply in the Lord’s presence. Perhaps, God willing, distractions will cease and the soul will be brought into even deeper union . . . the prayer of union itself (5th dwelling place).
Now, compare that quote to this one from “Interior Castle”:
What she is talking about here is our prayer before the Lord chooses to suspend/absorb our faculties in actual contemplation. Unlike what is taught in CP circles, we are not to somehow try and “manage” the process of arriving at contemplation by slowing down our minds. Our minds are to remain active in prayer until such time as the Lord decides otherwise. For, as St. Teresa teaches “recollection doesn’t come when we want it but when His Majesty grants it.”And this recollection is a preparation for being able to listen, as is counselled in some books, so that the soul instead of striving to engage in discourse strives to remain attentive and aware of what the Lord is working in it. If His Majesty has not begun to absorb us, I cannot understand how the mind can be stopped. There’s no way of doing so without bringing about more harm than good, although there has been a lengthy controversy on this matter among some spiritual persons (how ironic that she too faced these controversies
Some might think this all just semantics . . . but the difference between what Teresa teaches and what is taught in CP circles is profound.
Dave
A
Augustine
Guest
And just who are you to presume to know whether the Holy Spirit has led me or not?
Why is this the typical attitude of CP practitioners? If anything, such attitude confirms my assessment of this counterfeit known as CP, for it’s easy to know whether something is from God or not by its fruits.
I
InLight247
Guest
“If His Majesty has not begun to absorb us, I cannot understand how the mind can be stopped.”
This quote of St. Teresa is so true.
With limited knowledge of CP, and with respect for Fr. Keating’s other writings, I prsonally am neither for nor against CP.
But I always know CP is not for “me”, and I won’t practice it.
Even I have read those Teresa’s quotes before, your latest post helps to clarify the meaning and articulate what I couldn’t put into words and thoughts the reason why I personally decide not to try CP. Your post makes all the sense. I think after all, this debate does bear some fruits, for me at least. Thanks.
D
DBT
Guest
Even I have read those Teresa’s quotes before, your latest post helps to clarify the meaning and articulate what I couldn’t put into words and thoughts the reason why I personally decide not to try CP. Your post makes all the sense. I think after all, this debate does bear some fruits, for me at least. Thanks.
Hi Inlight!
You get it just fine
Sometimes I think I can kill and idea with to many words
Fr. Keating advocates the use of the “sacred word” prior to one being brought to contemplation; St. Teresa rightly places the concept of “the word” after one has been brought to contemplation.
That’s about as simple as I can explain it . . .
Dave.
BTW - I’m very happy you’ve found this helpful in someways!
B
blessedstar
Guest
And why doesn’t Teresa allude to it earlier? I can only say DBT that it is because it presumes to invite oneself, rather than to be invited.Hi Inlight!
You get it just fine
Sometimes I think I can kill and idea with to many words
Fr. Keating advocates the use of the “sacred word” prior to one being brought to contemplation; St. Teresa rightly places the concept of “the word” after one has been brought to contemplation.
That’s about as simple as I can explain it . . .
Dave.
BTW - I’m very happy you’ve found this helpful in someways!
- Status