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Xantippe
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I get worried once he’s talking about an individual.
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Walking_Home
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exnihilo:
I get worried once he’s talking about an individual.
Ditto.
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CharlesFulkerson
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oh ok. sorry to bother
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Gingersnaps4
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I don’t have a problem with some contemporary music as long as it is dignified and doesn’t cheapen the mass. I liked the contemporary mass at my church. Contemporary definitely isn’t my preference, I prefer a high mass or at least traditional
music but it’s the latest Sunday mass and we ususally end up going then. Anyhow, I say “liked” because until recently it was still reverent. Now they have added percussion of all things, and it’s been transformed into something hokey that cheapens the mass. The music director even shouts “one more time!” To the contemporary band now to have them repeat. It’s unreal! It’s almost like something you would hear at a non-denominational mega church, minus any lighting effects. I think we will end up making ourselves get up earlier on sundays just to avoid that music, I don’t like it to the point that it distracts me. I do think that mass should be something set apart from worldly society. It’s sacred and the music should reflect that.
music but it’s the latest Sunday mass and we ususally end up going then. Anyhow, I say “liked” because until recently it was still reverent. Now they have added percussion of all things, and it’s been transformed into something hokey that cheapens the mass. The music director even shouts “one more time!” To the contemporary band now to have them repeat. It’s unreal! It’s almost like something you would hear at a non-denominational mega church, minus any lighting effects. I think we will end up making ourselves get up earlier on sundays just to avoid that music, I don’t like it to the point that it distracts me. I do think that mass should be something set apart from worldly society. It’s sacred and the music should reflect that.
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Walking_Home
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Certain Congregations in Rome (CDF/CDWDS)-- would be well interested in – learning /knowing-- what this priest is up to/putting forth. Don’t think he would sit well with the Pope either.
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Don_Ruggero
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Rome is aware of Father’s…perambulations.
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Walking_Home
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It’s gotten difficult – to keep seeing his name come up – and with such things.
Insight as to why some trads end up toxic.
Insight as to why some trads end up toxic.
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Don_Ruggero
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It is very sad…
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Walking_Home
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Very much so Fr. Ruggero – very much so.
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Duckling
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1/2:
If the contemporary songs are songs of worship, is it still evil, because it is contemporary?
I understand how you would be opposed to secular songs in the church (and I am too, secular songs do not belong in the church), because they weren’t written by people who were seeking God.
What I’m failing to understand is how contemporary music is a ‘worldly/evil’ thing if it’s worship music, written for God, in admiration of him.
Also, elements of worship and devotion to God should be found outside the Church. These are things that should be in your daily life. Why shouldn’t you musically worship God outside of a Church? We should worship God day and night! Whether it’s to traditional chants or contemporary worship, is your choice, whatever you prefer. But I think it’s important to realize that people have their own ways of worshiping God, and that’s what makes it so personal to them. You can’t worship God with music you dislike, that’s like trying to force Chopin to listen to Alice Cooper or something, it just doesn’t work.
How can you worship God if you aren’t enjoying it? This does not put your heart in the right place for worship. If some people dislike the more traditional style and they find it easier to worship to contemporary music, they have the right to worship to contemporary music.
However, I’m not saying that the traditional chants or organs are terrible things, in fact, I do enjoy them. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that all the music in the church should be this kind of music, because there are plenty of contemporary worship songs that aren’t evil or worldly at all. I get that the drums might be seen as worldly because it’s an instrument that secular bands use, but using them in the church puts it to a better use. Any music genre/instrument in itself can’t be determined as good or evil until you see the intention and hear the words that are put to it.
A paintbrush can be used to paint something evil or disgusting, but it can also paint beautiful pictures of Jesus, or Saints etc. What that paintbrush paints is not decided by the paintbrush, the painter decides. The painting that is created reflects the heart/thoughts of the painter.
The same thing applies to music. A guitar can play a song about evil, worldly things. But it can also play songs of worship. Whatever it plays is not up to the guitar, but the guitarist.
So, if a guitarist loves God and is worshiping Him with all his heart, how can the songs he sings and plays be called evil or worldly?
Because the song was written yesterday? On a guitar?
What do you count as the “evil found in the outside world”? If I read my bible at home, is it evil because it’s not in the church? If I pray before eating in a restaurant, is it evil because it’s not in the church?
If the contemporary songs are songs of worship, is it still evil, because it is contemporary?
I understand how you would be opposed to secular songs in the church (and I am too, secular songs do not belong in the church), because they weren’t written by people who were seeking God.
What I’m failing to understand is how contemporary music is a ‘worldly/evil’ thing if it’s worship music, written for God, in admiration of him.
Also, elements of worship and devotion to God should be found outside the Church. These are things that should be in your daily life. Why shouldn’t you musically worship God outside of a Church? We should worship God day and night! Whether it’s to traditional chants or contemporary worship, is your choice, whatever you prefer. But I think it’s important to realize that people have their own ways of worshiping God, and that’s what makes it so personal to them. You can’t worship God with music you dislike, that’s like trying to force Chopin to listen to Alice Cooper or something, it just doesn’t work.
How can you worship God if you aren’t enjoying it? This does not put your heart in the right place for worship. If some people dislike the more traditional style and they find it easier to worship to contemporary music, they have the right to worship to contemporary music.
However, I’m not saying that the traditional chants or organs are terrible things, in fact, I do enjoy them. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that all the music in the church should be this kind of music, because there are plenty of contemporary worship songs that aren’t evil or worldly at all. I get that the drums might be seen as worldly because it’s an instrument that secular bands use, but using them in the church puts it to a better use. Any music genre/instrument in itself can’t be determined as good or evil until you see the intention and hear the words that are put to it.
A paintbrush can be used to paint something evil or disgusting, but it can also paint beautiful pictures of Jesus, or Saints etc. What that paintbrush paints is not decided by the paintbrush, the painter decides. The painting that is created reflects the heart/thoughts of the painter.
The same thing applies to music. A guitar can play a song about evil, worldly things. But it can also play songs of worship. Whatever it plays is not up to the guitar, but the guitarist.
So, if a guitarist loves God and is worshiping Him with all his heart, how can the songs he sings and plays be called evil or worldly?
Because the song was written yesterday? On a guitar?
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Duckling
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2/2
I’m not saying you’re wrong for preferring traditional chants or the organ, I think that kind of music is significantly unappreciated in today’s world, (even among Christians). I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s fair to say that contemporary music does not belong in the church.
And this sorta contradicts another thing you’ve said:
Because when you’re worshiping, you don’t want to have to try and see through the fact that you don’t like the genre being played. Preference matters. Popular preference matters. This is likely one reason contemporary music has been introduced into the church, is to bring up the attendance. This doesn’t mean that people listen to the worship music to be entertained, it’s just preference.
Did you create this thread because your church has started playing contemporary songs (that you didn’t like), or just because it’s a topic you felt convicted to share your views on?
I’m not trying to condescend or be rude, the whole reason I chimed in on this thread was because I felt convicted to share.
But I’m curious and want to better understand where you’re coming from.
I’m not saying you’re wrong for preferring traditional chants or the organ, I think that kind of music is significantly unappreciated in today’s world, (even among Christians). I’m just saying, I don’t think it’s fair to say that contemporary music does not belong in the church.
This statement doesn’t apply everywhere, this depends on the people in the area and the common preference. The people who attend a church in America may not have the same preference as people who attend a church in France.
And this sorta contradicts another thing you’ve said:
If people don’t go to mass to be “entertained”, then why would the type of music affect their attendance at all?
Because when you’re worshiping, you don’t want to have to try and see through the fact that you don’t like the genre being played. Preference matters. Popular preference matters. This is likely one reason contemporary music has been introduced into the church, is to bring up the attendance. This doesn’t mean that people listen to the worship music to be entertained, it’s just preference.
Did you create this thread because your church has started playing contemporary songs (that you didn’t like), or just because it’s a topic you felt convicted to share your views on?
I’m not trying to condescend or be rude, the whole reason I chimed in on this thread was because I felt convicted to share.
But I’m curious and want to better understand where you’re coming from.
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EleanorArr
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Apart from saying that in different contexts, both ‘traditional’ and ‘contemporary’ music at Mass, or any other church occasion, can both be uplifting and edifying (or, if done poorly, stultifying and distracting…a bad organist is no better than a bad guitarist), I have a few thoughts on the perennial topic.
First of all, in the Psalms, we read of harps, lyres, trumpets, cymbals, stringed instruments, pipes (flutes?) - and dancing, for that matter. (And, in the King James Bible, as I recall, which admittedly isn’t Catholic, there are also unicorns froicking in Psalm 29; the bible on the desk in front of me has the less-exotic ‘wild young ox’).
So the point to be made here is that then-common contemporary musical instruments clearly weren’t insulting or disrespectful to the God we find in the Old Testament (who was never afraid of making His displeasure known, even to His chosen people!). So we should lay off people who prefer their hymns accompanied by guitars.
Secondly, I recall reading of a similar sort of debate in the 19th century Church of England in my dim-and-distant university days, where the point of contention was using the tunes of popular/patriotic songs as hymn tunes. Someone pointed out that (to coin a phrase), ‘the devil ought not to have all the good tunes to himself.’
But to show I’m not entirely without sympathy with the OP – one might argue, that what is fit for the devil’s service certainly is not appropriate to celebrate with our Creator.
First of all, in the Psalms, we read of harps, lyres, trumpets, cymbals, stringed instruments, pipes (flutes?) - and dancing, for that matter. (And, in the King James Bible, as I recall, which admittedly isn’t Catholic, there are also unicorns froicking in Psalm 29; the bible on the desk in front of me has the less-exotic ‘wild young ox’).
So the point to be made here is that then-common contemporary musical instruments clearly weren’t insulting or disrespectful to the God we find in the Old Testament (who was never afraid of making His displeasure known, even to His chosen people!). So we should lay off people who prefer their hymns accompanied by guitars.
Secondly, I recall reading of a similar sort of debate in the 19th century Church of England in my dim-and-distant university days, where the point of contention was using the tunes of popular/patriotic songs as hymn tunes. Someone pointed out that (to coin a phrase), ‘the devil ought not to have all the good tunes to himself.’
But to show I’m not entirely without sympathy with the OP – one might argue, that what is fit for the devil’s service certainly is not appropriate to celebrate with our Creator.
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whyeyeman
Guest
This sounds to me like you are defending total human depravity. Man is capable of becoming perfect, through the help of God. Is this not the entire message of Christianity?
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.” John 17:14
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” John 15:19
“I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.” John 17:14
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” John 15:19
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whyeyeman
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Are you a teen? Because I am, and I can tell you that what attracts young people to Catholicism is tradition.
With so much ugliness in the modern world, we want beauty. Gregorian chant fills this need perfectly.
With so much ugliness in the modern world, we want beauty. Gregorian chant fills this need perfectly.
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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LOL
We are all young once. Of the 40 seminarians at my local dioceses, 35 are under 30. And of those 35 men, 30 are Americans.
Every last one of those 30 men attended Lifeteen. Quite a few are converts or “reverts”. The reverts have brought their families back to the Church.
So one cannot argue that TLM is the only attraction to young people. All of them know of TLM and attending TLM (both low and high) is part of their first-year seminarian experience. Yet they still prefer the OF Mass. (Or at least according to my friend who’s in seminary).
And for females–I know of two growing orders. They are both very socially active orders, and both orders wear habits. In both cases, all the American postulants were also Lifeteen participants. The sisters attend an OF Masses…they don’t have the same opportunities to try different Masses as the seminarians do, but the fact remains–they are fervent
You may be a teen, but you do NOT speak for all teens.
And, unlike yourself, who can simply state that you are a teen and offer no further life experiance we can ALL say we were teens and offer our much larger scope of experiance.
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pnewton
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The accusation should be tied to something specific to the Pharisees, other than general criticism. So, what specific do you see to make this observation, straight up? Note that Pope Francis has also made this observation about some, making it clear to limit and define it so as not to be over broad.
Off topic - I just hit a “like” on a post solely for the use of “perambulations” as a way to soften the sentence. That was clever.
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pnewton
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One person can not speak for his age group. I know a few teenagers that would very much beg to differ with you.
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CharlesFulkerson
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I’m 14 and have two bothers who are 16 and 17. I can guarantee that most teens that you would ask have no clue what Gregorian chant is. Therefore I am unsure how you git your conclusion that that fills our needs. At my parish we actually did a survey about a very similar topic and most parishioners who participated said they actually quite like the music at the life teen mass and think that it is perfect for us teens as it gets us involved in the musical praise to our lord. I think we are all going to have different opinions on the subject and I wouldn’t have replied if you didn’t call guitar a contemporary instrument. And I do not believe that the bible meant that the world we evil and we should stay away but what i think it means that there great evil in this world that we should fight against.
Rock on people, \m/
Rock on people, \m/
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misstherese
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I think people are misinterpreting what music at mass is meant for.
One of the things I noticed while attending the EF for the first time at two different churches, was that at both churches, the choir was in the back and out of sight. They were not in the front, urging others to sing along, or randomly interrupting mass to say what page number to turn to for a certain song. No. It was just simple, beautiful singing. Stripped down. Barely accompanied by organ if at all. It reminded me of angels because I had no idea where it was coming from. I think the less complicated and less showy the music at mass is, the better. The mass is NOT entertainment. Some Latin hymns wouldn’t hurt either, since Latin is the language of the church.
One of the things I noticed while attending the EF for the first time at two different churches, was that at both churches, the choir was in the back and out of sight. They were not in the front, urging others to sing along, or randomly interrupting mass to say what page number to turn to for a certain song. No. It was just simple, beautiful singing. Stripped down. Barely accompanied by organ if at all. It reminded me of angels because I had no idea where it was coming from. I think the less complicated and less showy the music at mass is, the better. The mass is NOT entertainment. Some Latin hymns wouldn’t hurt either, since Latin is the language of the church.
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exnihilo
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I hate to make a post about Fr. Ripperger, but since it became pile on him I feel obliged to myself respond. I think his views have been misrepresented and not fully explained. I’ve listened to many of his lectures and homilies. There is a lot of good stuff in what he teaches.
Also, he actually calls traditionalists out for many of their own bad habits and even bad attitudes towards the Church. He actually is an antidote to toxicity.
Nothing I’ve encountered from him is contrary to Church’s teaching. This is unlike some other priests who have considerable more popularity. He is also very forthright in what he believes and not ambiguous. Now if someone doesn’t like his opinion on some matters that is fine. But that isn’t anywhere near the problems we have in the Church with some trying to challenge doctrine, or the practical ministerial results of that doctrine.
Also, he actually calls traditionalists out for many of their own bad habits and even bad attitudes towards the Church. He actually is an antidote to toxicity.
Nothing I’ve encountered from him is contrary to Church’s teaching. This is unlike some other priests who have considerable more popularity. He is also very forthright in what he believes and not ambiguous. Now if someone doesn’t like his opinion on some matters that is fine. But that isn’t anywhere near the problems we have in the Church with some trying to challenge doctrine, or the practical ministerial results of that doctrine.
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