Contraception and Culpability of Laity

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Until we have that list we cannot blame those who follow their confessors guidance.
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I disagree. The Teaching Church consists of Bishops in communion with the Pope. Priests are part of the Taught Church, just like laity. They have charge of our souls, but they are not vested with magisterial authority.

The pope trumps your bishop. Your bishop trumps your priest. You can’t read the pope’s Catechism then excuse yourself from it because your priest said you didn’t have to follow it. That’s as absurd as telling the military court that I was aware of the law fo armed conflict, but my Colonel told me I didn’t have to follow the law. Who outranks who? The President and the Congress set up US law. They outrank any and all Colonels and Generals. Likewise, the pope is the supreme legislator. He outranks your priest. If your priest is telling you something contrary than the pope, who outranks who?
 
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itsjustdave1988:
The pope trumps your bishop. Your bishop trumps your priest.
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Many bishops and the pope know that many priests do not uphold the Church teaching on contraception. Since these priests are not removed this further reinforces to Catholics that it must be OK.

If people above your COs got wind that your COs were telling you to murder, those superiors would be quickly removed.

I am talking about public writings and sermons of priests here.

Greg
 
If Catholics are taught in this line of thinking and sincerely believe it, then yes, they have little if any guilt. I would say that is the current state of affairs with some Catholics today.
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Sorry, but that’s not what Catholic doctrine asserts. Negligent ignorance, even if sincere, is a sin.

The only way Catholic doctrine would agree with you in this instance is if a lack of mental capacity destroyed the voluntary nature of the act.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Negligent ignorance, even if sincere, is a sin.
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It’s not negligent if they ask a priest.

Also see previous post.

Greg
 
Many bishops and the pope know that many priests do not uphold the Church teaching on contraception.
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And their reaction has been to reinterate Catholic teaching on the matter. Each and every Catholic contemplating use of contraceptives is bound to determine Catholic teaching regarding contraceptive. If they neglect to read the Catechism, they have themselves to blame and nobody else. They are culpable for their neglect.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
And their reaction has been to reinterate Catholic teaching on the matter.
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If people above your COs got wind that your COs were telling you to murder, those superiors would be quickly removed.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
It’s not negligent if they ask a priest.
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Yes it is. If I just asked the officer appointed over me if it was ok to kill non-combatants, and he says “yes” and I obey him, I am guilty. I have an obligation to know the law of armed conflict. The military courts would laugh at your defense.

Similarly, Catholics are bound to know more than what their priest says. They are also bound to know what their Bishop says, and bound to know what their Pope says. Every Catholic old enough to consider use of contraceptives has the opportunity and time to find these things out. The only excuse is lack of mental capacity to know. With sufficient time, opportunity, and capacity, no invincible ignorance can exist. Thus, such ignorance as at best vincible and at worst affected.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
If people above your COs got wind that your COs were telling you to murder, those superiors would be quickly removed.
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You’ve asserted this repeatedly, but history disagrees with you. Often the superior is not removed until the war is over.

Nonetheless, unlawful orders are not limited to killing non-combatants, but include any order that contradicts higher authority. This happens quite often without removal. Whether they are removed or not is irrelevant, however. I am still bound to obey UNLESS my superior directs me to disobey higher authority. I have a responsibility to know the laws and regulations of the USAF. I cannot excuse myself simply because my boss ordered me to violate the regulations. This is what your thesis consists of. Courts dont’ recognize this excuse and neither will God.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
If I just asked the officer appointed over me if it was ok to kill non-combatants, and he says “yes” and I obey him, I am guilty.
Similarly, Catholics are bound to know more than what their priest says. They are also bound to know what their Bishop says, and bound to know what their Pope says.
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If people above your COs got wind that your COs were telling you to murder, those superiors would be quickly removed.

Many bishops and the pope know that many priests do not uphold the Church teaching on contraception. Since these priests are not removed this further reinforces to Catholics that it must be OK.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Often the superior is not removed until the war is over.
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Ahh, hhhmmm, this has been going on for what, 30-40 years now. Look at Father McBrien for example, he’s a theology professor in a position of Catholic teaching.

Any Catholic can fairly look at this and many others and say “well, it must not be that serious (contraception) after all he’s an ordained authority.”

The bottom line is a Catholic could read this whole post and become concerned about contracption.

Then they could go to a priest tomorrow (a higher authority than you) and be told not to worry about it and the Catechism is going to change and that The Papal Birth Control Commission (Paul VI) determined that some other forms of abc are OK so you don’t need to bring this up to the bishop.

How is a Catholic supposed to know they can’t even trust a priest?? He’s supposed to be an ***authority ***on these questions and he is put there by the bishop.

This is not a black-and-white question like murder and a commission was set up to study the question so taking a priest’s word is may not fairly be considered ignorance by some.

Again, I agree contraception is a serious sin.

Greg
 
If people above your COs got wind that your COs were telling you to murder, those superiors would be quickly removed.
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See post 28. The experience in Vietnam and Nazi Germany contradicts your assertion.
 
You don’t have to take my word for it. St. Thomas Aquinas asserts:
ignorance denotes privation of knowledge, i.e. lack of knowledge of those things that one has a natural aptitude to know. Some of these we are under an obligation to know, those, to wit, without the knowledge of which we are unable to accomplish a due act rightly. Wherefore all are bound in common to know the articles of faith, and the universal principles of right, and each individual is bound to know matters regarding his duty or state. …

Now it is evident that whoever neglects to have or do what he ought to have or do, commits a sin of omission. Wherefore through negligence, ignorance of what one is bound to know, is a sin; whereas it is not imputed as a sin to man, if he fails to know what he is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such like things is called “invincible,” because it cannot be overcome by study. For this reason such like ignorance, not being voluntary, since it is not in our power to be rid of it, is not a sin: wherefore it is evident that no invincible ignorance is a sin. On the other hand, vincible ignorance is a sin, if it be about matters one is bound to know; but not, if it be about things one is not bound to know. (ST, IIa, 76, 2)
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If you were “unable to know” what the Church teaches regarding contraception, or ignorance of such teaching could not be “overcome by study” than your guilt would be destroyed. Just cuz your priest misinformed you doesn’t relieve you of what your are bound to know, however. Read the Catechism. No excuses.
 
How is a Catholic supposed to know they can’t even trust a priest?? He’s supposed to be an ***authority ***on these questions and he is put there by the bishop.

This is not a black-and-white question like murder and a commission was set up to study the question so taking a priest’s word may fairly be not considered ignorance by some.

Again, I agree contraception is a serious sin.

Also, see my post #30 above.
 
How is a Catholic supposed to know they can’t even trust a priest??
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Firstly, the Catholic ought to have read Scritpure, where many a priest proved unfaithful and untrustworthy.

Secondly, the Catholic ought to have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get straight from the Vicar of Christ what he thinks. If a Catholic has not read both Scritpure and the Catechism, he has no excuse.

St. Thomas insists that ignorance is a sin unless it cannot be overcome by study. This is my point, and with all your excuses, you have not addressed it.
 
Thanks for the post about Thomas Acquinas.

The key point that I maintain is that, the fact that many priests publicly and privately encourage Catholics that they can use abc, and that these priests are allowed to continue on this path when a bishop who is also aware of this could easily correct them and doesn’t, may in some cases significantly weaken cupability of the laity because it is seems to laity that even priest’s superiors do little about it.

So your analogy about superiors is weakened because the clarity is not as obvious to some as murder and the priests are seen as being in good standing and receiving communion etc. all with the apparent blessing of the bishop. So the lay person figures they can trust the priest and have done their duty to overcome ignorance.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
St. Thomas insists that ignorance is a sin unless it cannot be overcome by study. This is my point, and with all your excuses, you have not addressed it.
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Well aren’t we the first to rightly tell Protestants that Scripture is authoritatively interpreted by our Catholic Church?

A priest can tell a Catholic who studies the Catechism that there are other factors that a trained professional understands so he can authoritatively advise application of the Catechism. Kind of like a medical doctor might tell a patient, well I’m glad you have a book on medicine but I can advise you in the proper use. What Catholic would doubt that? We are taught to respect and obey clergy.

Greg
 
taking a priest’s word is may not fairly be considered ignorance by some.
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I think that may be the root of the problem. You seem to imply that sin and guilt is a matter of opinion. It is not. According to Catholic doctrine, sin is not relieved of all guilt unless it is done out of INVINCIBLE ignorance. I really am not persuaded by what “some” may consider ignorance. I know that ignorance of what we are bound to know is a sin, unless it is INVINCIBLE, that is, ignorance that cannot be overcome by study.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Well aren’t we the first to rightly tell Protestants that Scripture is authoritatively interpreted by our Catholic Church?

A priest can tell a Catholic who studies the Catechism that there are other factors that a trained professional understands so he can authoritatively advise application of the Catechism. Kind of like a medical doctor might tell a patient, well I’m glad you have a book on medicine but I can advise you in the proper use. What Catholic would doubt that? We are taught to respect and obey clergy.

Greg
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Sorry Greg, but your are being lawerly again. You seem to desperately want to be right. I’ve given you the answer to the question you asked. I’ve supported it with the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas. Sorry you don’t like the answer. I must move one now, as you are merely spinning in circles in my opinion.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Sorry Greg, but your are being lawerly again.
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Now it is you who is not addressing my points.
  1. Many Catholics may not even be taught to study the question by their priests.
  2. Priests are allowed to continue in good standing even in public opposition.
  3. Catholics are taught to respect priests on the same level as books. It is a priest with the authority in confession, not a book.
  4. If “study” can overcome it, then why haven’t priests changed their view? They have years of Catholic training.
  5. Catholics figure priests have studied it much more than they.
Can you address these?

I’m not excusing anyone, I am showing valid reasons why cuplability is weakened.

Greg
 
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