Contraception and Culpability of Laity

[Greg_McPherran]

Many priests publicly and privately encourage Catholics that they can use abc, and these priests are allowed to continue on this path when a bishop who is also aware of this could easily correct them and doesn’t.

Are you saying that this does not weaken culpability?

 

[Greg_McPherran]

From the Catechism:

The confessor is not the master of God’s forgiveness, but its servant. The minister of this sacrament should unite himself to the intention and charity of Christ. He should have a proven knowledge of Christian behavior, experience of human affairs, respect and sensitivity toward the one who has fallen; he must love the truth, be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity.

The Catechism clearly states that the confessor must be faithful to the Magisterium.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Greg_McPherran:

From the Catechism:

The confessor is not the master of God’s forgiveness, but its servant. The minister of this sacrament should unite himself to the intention and charity of Christ. He should have a proven knowledge of Christian behavior, experience of human affairs, respect and sensitivity toward the one who has fallen; he must love the truth, be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity.

The Catechism clearly states that the confessor must be faithful to the Magisterium.

Of course. So should every member of the Church. That doesn’t mean that they are always faithful.

From CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living****Magisterium

catechisms have a special character of doctrinal security, approved as they are by the teaching authority and claiming only to set forth with clearness and precision the teaching common in the Church. Thus the child who learns his catechism may, provided he is informed of it, take cognizance that the doctrine presented to him is not the personal opinion of the volunteer catechist or of the priest who communicates it to him.

If the priest communicates something contrary to the catechism, the converse is also true. That is, the priest **IS **merely communicating his personal opinion contrary to that of the teaching authority of the Church. We are obliged, despite the personal opinion of the priest, to be faithful to the magisterium.

 

[felra]

Greg_McPherran:

The key point that I maintain is that, the fact that many priests publicly and privately encourage Catholics that they can use abc, and that these priests are allowed to continue on this path when a bishop who is also aware of this could easily correct them and doesn’t, may in some cases significantly weaken cupability of the laity because it is seems to laity that even priest’s superiors do little about it.

So your analogy about superiors is weakened because the clarity is not as obvious to some as murder and the priests are seen as being in good standing and receiving communion etc. all with the apparent blessing of the bishop. So the lay person figures they can trust the priest and have done their duty to overcome ignorance.

From my observation and experience, many young to middle adult age Catholics are “cultural” Catholics who have adopted a “don’t ask, don’t tell” mentality to their extent of wanting to know and act and be held accountible to authentic Catholic teaching on matters of faith and morality.

Much of that affected ignorance as defined in the above post is evident. The defining point for this chosen ignorance seems to be the demand and sacrifice of Christian discipleship integral to following the Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. The price of faithfulness seems to be too high, unreasonable, unneccessary a price and runs countercultural to current comfortable status quo lifestyle and success. The Church teaching on contraception seems to be the entry point/litmus tests for Catholics to chose obedience (holiness) or dissent (self chosen ignorance, rationalionalization). This is not a new phenomenon, the bible repeatedly speaks to this.

I believe that it is also important to be reminded that the Catholic faithful are not entirely dependent upon the human dimension of the Church, that the Holy Spirit is personally active and available to all believers who want to know the truth–God does not abandon the faithful. The real issue/question becomes: how much does the believer want to know and live the truth?

 

[Greg_McPherran]

felra:

The real issue/question becomes: how much does the believer want to know and live the truth?

Yes but many priests are encouraging in the wrong direction. I know from experience.

See the homosexual area (if you dare) under Community Building on this Roman Catholic Parish web site.
stjoan.com/default2.htm

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

Greg

 

[felra]

Greg_McPherran:

The real question is how much do all priests and bishops want to teach the truth?

See the homosexual are (if you dare) under Community Building on this Roman Catholic Parish web site.
stjoan.com/default2.htm

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

It would seem that of all the believers, the dissenting clergy who is entrusted with the care of the flock (as professed in their sacred vows) and should know better will be fitted for a larger milestone around the neck if persist, dies unrependent at leading the faithful astray from the truths of the faith.

Luke
Chapter 11
9 “And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 What father among you would hand his son a snake when he asks for a fish? 12 Or hand him a scorpion when he asks for an egg? 13 If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the holy Spirit 5 to those who ask him?” **Jeremiah
**Chapter 23

1 1 Woe to the shepherds who mislead and scatter the flock of my pasture, says the LORD.

 

[Black_Jaque]

I’ll just share my story here.

I was one who was mislead by a priest. Strangely enough that priest must be given credit for playing a large role in bringing me back to the faith. But mislead, I was. I was told that the contraception teaching was a teaching told to the general mass of humanity, and that the magesterium/pope never addressed contraception in terms of married couples specifically.

Okey-dokey, armed with that I was able to concoct a reasoning that justified the use of contraception.

Then I encountered the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This was well after I lost touch with that priest. The CCC made its statement against contraception so clear that I was baffled for a long time. I don’t know how many times I read that passage and couldn’t square it with what I was taught by that priest.

Then I befriended some Catholic men who put the teaching to practice. I spent time with them. I read that dang, stupid passage in the CCC again, sometimes wanting to throw the book across the room.

By the Grace of God I stumbled into a situation in life where I could practice Church teaching with no inconvenience on our part (my spouse practiced ecological breast feeding). This bought time. Through many hours of driving for work I would cogitate “why” CCC would make one statement and priests would make another. I would cogitate on which should be given greater credibility (I’ll take the CCC over a priest any day). I read Humanae Vitae and anything else I could.

Then I read The Courage To Be Catholic by George Wiegel and that explained a whole lot about how and why I was witnessing this liberal/conservative division in my Church.

Also, my family was growing. And with each new pregnancy, I began to notice the reaction of other people. How negative the responses were. One man, a close relative, rejoiced saying “Yesss! More kids!”, then turning to his wife, " and we don’t have to raise them!" This was said in front of his own kids.

All these bits and pieces I mulled over. Slowly I became convinced of the evil of ABC. Prior to all this, my culpability was most probably mitigated. Now, if I were to reject this teaching I would definitely be 100% culpable.

To this day, I still can’t explain the evil of contraception. It was never explained to me in one concise book, pamphlet, or lecture. But the one thing that underlied all my thinking on this was that “Human life is sacred.” I kept coming back to that statement. I can grasp the connection between Human life being sacred and never using contraception, but I can’t put it eloquently.

 

[felra]

Black Jaque:

To this day, I still can’t explain the evil of contraception. It was never explained to me in one concise book, pamphlet, or lecture. But the one thing that underlied all my thinking on this was that “Human life is sacred.” I kept coming back to that statement. I can grasp the connection between Human life being sacred and never using contraception, but I can’t put it eloquently.

Your testimony was eloquently put…thanks for sharing. There seems to be a few of us who have had to rebound and recover from the heterodox/dissenting counsel of priests, whatever intention they may have had.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

itsjustdave1988:

We are obliged, despite the personal opinion of the priest, to be faithful to the magisterium.

Fair enough. I am just saying that as a community our resolve and faith can be weakened. I think the pope said in Veritatis Splendor that faith is weakened by dissent. There is a communal aspect to our faith that requires a building up of the community and I think a faithful priest can really help with this.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Black Jaque:

I can grasp the connection between Human life being sacred and never using contraception, but I can’t put it eloquently.

I think the key is to understand that the process that brings new eternal souls into the world is also sacred and under God’s order. Anyone who has seen the children understand.

Also, when we have relations and attempt to prevent pregnancy, we frustrate the divine will. I give women a lot of credit for carrying children. Families also have a right to limit the number of children for valid reasons using moral methods.

Also contraceptives can be abortifacients.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

felra:

There seems to be a few of us who have had to rebound and recover from the heterodox/dissenting counsel of priests, whatever intention they may have had.

Hi Felra. True. Plus, misguidance is still prevalent.

Greg

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Black Jaque:

and that explained a whole lot about how and why I was witnessing this liberal/conservative division in my Church.

Yes, it’s a serious problem today.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Thanks for sharing Black Jaque.
Black Jaque:

All these bits and pieces I mulled over. Slowly I became convinced of the evil of ABC. Prior to all this, my culpability was most probably mitigated. Now, if I were to reject this teaching I would definitely be 100% culpable…It was never explained to me in one concise book, pamphlet, or lecture.

Hi Dave, there’s direct evidence of my thesis. Even after he read the Catechism he was still confused because he trusted what the priest told him.

However also Dave, it proves your point that as a serious Catholic he did come to the truth by his own study.

I think we can agree though that misguidance by priests can still cause people to at least use contraception for periods of time until they realize they are mislead. So I would claim that for those periods until they do overcome the misguidance that they have little if any culpability.

Greg

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

It is common knowledge that the Catholic Church opposes birth control. No one needs a priest to tell him. All he has to do is read a newspaper.

Birth control was illegal until the mid-1960’s.

People who practice birth control have no excuse. If they say they disagree with the Church’s teaching on birth control, they are admitting they know what the Catholic Church teaches.

People who practice birth control know it is wrong. But they prefer to defy the laws of God, rather than do what is right.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Chris Jacobsen:

But they prefer to defy the laws of God, rather than do what is right.

All with the support of their priests (and bishops who allow the misguidance).

 

[Black_Jaque]

Chris Jacobson,

It’s not that cut and dried. People don’t grasp the hierarchy of Church teaching authority.

They look at something like the Pope opposing the war in Iraq and witness faithful Catholics supposedly “dissenting” from this so-called teaching, then they can’t discern the difference between that dissention and dissenting on contraception.

Not agreeing with the Pope on matters over Iraq isn’t even close to the same. Here’s the big difference. When the Pope spoke against the war in Iraq it was directed to the U.S. He wasn’t proclaiming this as an official teaching to all the faithful. Because he wasn’t making this an official teaching it doesn’t carry much weight.

It’s like this. Suppose I sent a letter to the Prime Minister of Canada and I told him that we, the United States of America, were declaring war on Canada, then signed it by my name. What kind of response would it get? Probably nothing more than a light chuckle as it gets tossed in the garbage. That’s because I have no authority to speak for the entire country.

How about if I was elected as a local school board member? Would that change much? How about if I was governor of Wisconsin - would that change anything? No. How about a U.S. Senator? No. It would only matter if I held the office of the President of the United States of America.

Now suppose I was President, and I was having coffee in AirForce One with my staff and we were discussing NAFTA. To express my disgust I say something like, “We oughta take over Canada.” Is that an official declaration of war? Nope, don’t be stupid.

Now what if I was back as a lowly U.S. citizen, and I came to the doors of the Prime Minister of Canada and I told him, “The U.S. has declared war on Canada, the President issued the orders.”

There’s a BIG difference now. Sure I could be lying, but I am now carrying a message that is backed by the proper authority. You can bet that the Prime Minister will investigate to see if there is more evidence that what I am saying is true. He may check with a U.S. Ambassador, someone with more authority. He may check with a U.S. Senator.

Now if they all say the same thing, the Prime Minister of Canada will be rallying the troops in a hurry.

Such it is with Catholic Teaching. You receive a message. Consider who it is coming from and by what authority they have to speak. The authority goes from Catholic laity, to monks/nuns, deacons, priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and finally the Pope. If there is disagreement among the laity but all the clergy are unified on a teaching, you can assume that some of the laity are dissenting. If there is disagreement among the lower clergy but the bishops and Pope all agree, then there is dissention among the priests. If there is dissagreement among the pope and the bishops it may not be an official teaching. Or the bishops could all dissagree, but the Pope “puts his foot down” - now we know that what the Pope is proclaiming is in fact official.

So when you say “everyone know the Church opposes contraception”, that’s isn’t quite enough to hold everyone culpable. Everyone also knows that the Catholic Church worships Mary too, right? They may be culpable of sloth, never attempting to find out what the Church really teaches, and that is a cardinal sin.

People will get confused. The more dissention we have the more confusion there will be. What we need to work on is spreading the word about how the authority works within the Church.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Because he wasn’t making this an official teaching it doesn’t carry much weight.

I disagree. The pope’s opinion on this matter DOES carry much weight, just not the same weight as formal Catholic doctrine.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Dave,

Well right. You know what I mean.

But to further prove my point, why does JPII’s personal statements/opinion carry weight? Is it because he holds the office of pope? Or because we regard him as a wise and holy man?

There have been crooked pope’s in the past. We don’t have to regard every utterance from the papal office with great weight. It’s that confusion that makes trouble.

Why do you think the Vatican was so ambiguous about commenting on Gibson’s “The Passion of The Christ”? It’s because the Vatican knew that their opinion on the movie doesn’t count for much, but you can bet there would be great scandal over any opinion issued. People would be accusing other people of mortal sin if they didn’t like the movie, because the Pope “said it was good”.

Saying that every utterance of the Pope is infallible doctrine is like saying everything the President signs is law.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Black Jaque,

But to further prove my point, why does JPII’s personal statements/opinion carry weight? Is it because he holds the office of pope?

Yes.

Or because we regard him as a wise and holy man?

Yes.

I tend to agree with the Baltimore Catechism’s view…

But remember, the Pope
is not infallible unless he is teaching faith or morals; that is, what we
believe or do in order to save our souls. If the Holy Father wrote a book on
astronomy, mathematics, grammar, or even theology, he could make mistakes as
other men do, because the Holy Ghost has not promised to guide him in such
things. Nevertheless, whatever the Pope teaches on anything you may be pretty
sure is right. The Pope is nearly always a very learned man of many years´
experience. He has with him at Rome learned men from every part of the world,
so that we may say he has the experience of the whole world. Other rulers
cannot and need not know as much as the Holy Father, because they have not to
govern the world, but only their own country. Moreover, there is no government
in the whole world as old as the Church, no nation that can show as many rulers
without change; so we may say the Pope has also the experience of all the Popes
who preceded him, from St. Peter down to our present Holy Father, Pius XI-two
hundred and sixty-one popes. Therefore, considering all this, we should have
the very greatest respect for the opinions and advice of the Holy Father on any
subject. We should not set up our limited knowledge and experience against
his, even if we think that we know better than he does about certain political
events taking place in our country, for we are not sure that we do. The Holy
Father knows the past history of nations; he knows the nature of mankind; he
knows that what takes place in one nation may, and sometimes does, take place
in another under the same circumstances. Thus the Holy Father has greater
foresight than we have, and we should be thankful when he warns us against
certain dangers in politics or other things. He does not teach politics; but
as everything we do is either good or bad, every statesman or politician must
consider whether what he is about to do be right or wrong, just or unjust. It
is the business and duty of the Holy Father to declare against the evil or
unjust actions of either individuals or nations, and for that reason he seems
at times to interfere in politics when he is really teaching morals.

(*Baltimore Catechism, No. 4, *Q. 125).

We ought to have great respect for the pope’s opinion by virtue of his office, his scope of responsibility, the scope of his governing power, even on matters non-doctrinal, although non-doctrinal matters certainly can be disagreed with.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

But, I know what you mean