Contraceptive mandate could face tough sledding in Supreme Court

[TMC]

Other countries provide health insurance for their people, and the horror stories about places like Canada, have been proven false.

We’re the only developed country on earth where people go bankrupt over health cost.

Jim

We developed this bizarre system in which most people get their health care from their employers through an accident of history. (It was an unintended side effect of wage controls during WWII). The employer-centric model is why our system is unique – and uniquely inefficient – among the developed world. We need to move toward a sensible system that works. Seems to me that single payer is one way to do that, but I would be willing to look at others. What makes no sense is to go back to system that caused the richest and most highly developed country in the world to have third world level health care.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

We developed this bizarre system in which most people get their health care from their employers through an accident of history. (It was an unintended side effect of wage controls during WWII). The employer-centric model is why our system is unique – and uniquely inefficient – among the developed world. We need to move toward a sensible system that works. Seems to me that single payer is one way to do that, but I would be willing to look at others. What makes no sense is to go back to system that caused the richest and most highly developed country in the world to have third world level health care.

This I agree with. The emploercentric model of insurance was developed out of WW2 as an incentive for employers to attract and retain employees. Health insurance was a “benefit” that was dangled in front of prospective employees as an enticement. However, like most of the silly adjustments we had to make in WW2 that are STILL AROUND (like the use of high-fructose corn syrup instead of sugar and the use of synthetic detergents rather than soap).
Why we haven’t readapted as a society to the current reality is beyond me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Obamacare does nothing to control costs. Insurance provides coverage. It does nothing to control costs.

If YOU want a government run single payer system, why would you force ME to participate against my will?

Because if you don’t buy insurance for yourself or your family, if you end up needing emergency care, you force the taxpayers and those with insurance, to pay the higher premiums in order to provide free healthcare to you.

The mandate to purchase health insurance is to stop irresponsible people from becoming a burden to society.

Also, the way insurance works, having healthy people paying into the system keeps the cost of premiums down.

If only sick and elderly people purchase insuance, the cost would be unaffordable.

But again, this is a for profit system which was written by insurance providers and health groups which are in essence, corporations.

It will break and we’ll end up with people uninsured and burdening the system anyway, until the government begins to pick up their health care.

Jim

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Because if you don’t buy insurance for yourself or your family, if you end up needing emergency care, you force the taxpayers and those with insurance, to pay the higher premiums in order to provide free healthcare to you.

The mandate to purchase health insurance is to stop irresponsible people from becoming a burden to society.

Also, the way insurance works, having healthy people paying into the system keeps the cost of premiums down.

If only sick and elderly people purchase insuance, the cost would be unaffordable.

But again, this is a for profit system which was written by insurance providers and health groups which are in essence, corporations.

It will break and we’ll end up with people uninsured and burdening the system anyway, until the government begins to pick up their health care.

Jim

To to be clear, you want safety and security, freedom be damned.

 

[Suudy]

What makes no sense is to go back to system that caused the richest and most highly developed country in the world to have third world level health care.

Are you saying we have “third world level health care” right now? If so, what is your source?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

To to be clear, you want safety and security, freedom be damned.

I want people to have access to health care, which is a basic right.

Just as people must have car insurance, so too they should have health-insurance so if the get sick or get into an accident, they won’t burden the rest of us who have purchased health insurance.

People who have no health insurance, become a burden to us all, and infringe on our freedom.

Jim

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Are you saying we have “third world level health care” right now? If so, what is your source?

There is no source. We have one of the most excellent delivery systems and comprehensive treatment capacities in the world. Its not a question of supply, its distribution and payment that are at issue, and Obamacare fixes none of it. We basically have a law that will force people to provide services to other people and forces people to acquire services and products from other people. If that is the direction of our country, I am moving to south america. I prefer liberty to a piece of dirt.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I want people to have access to health care, which is a basic right.

Just as people must have car insurance, so too they should have health-insurance so if the get sick or get into an accident, they won’t burden the rest of us who have purchased health insurance.

Jim

They already have access to healthcare. It is against the law in most places for healthcare providers to refuse care based on ability to pay.

 

[TMC]

Are you saying we have “third world level health care” right now? If so, what is your source?

My source is my own practical experience, plus every report on the state of our system I have ever read. We have a system in which the very wealthy get very good care, the middle class gets some care, and the poor get only emergency care. That is exactly how third world countries work for everything (not just medical care). It is not that goods and services are not available in the third world, its that only the wealthier can access them. That is how our health care system works - and it is failing us terribly. Go look at any common statistic on health care - like infant mortality, for instance. The US ranks just below Cuba on infant mortality. Our infant mortality rate is a third higher than either the UK or Canada with their supposedly terrible public health systems - despite the fact that we pay far more for healthcare. Our ranking on life expectancy is about the same, as is pretty much any metric on health care.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

You seem to disagree - do you have some reason to believe our system is working better than most other developed countries’ systems? I have seen nothing that would indicate that.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

They already have access to healthcare. It is against the law in most places for healthcare providers to refuse care based on ability to pay.

They have access to health care by showing up at an ER, to have the flu or some other ailment that could be treated by a doctor, if they had insurance. The cost is picked up by those with insurance, or taxpayers, depending on the laws of the state where they live.

Romney care was put in place here in MA, because the ER’s were over-burdened, especially as the economy slowed down and people lost their jobs.

Some ER’s shut down, turning ambulances away. It was reported in the news, that some people died on the way to a hospital that was further than the one they would normally have been taken to, but the ambulance was turned away.

How would you feel if your loved one was brought into an ER for an emergency, but they couldn’t be treated because there were too many people there, being treated for common ailments.?

This is the real world we live in, and people with health-insurance without the experience of a medical crises, have no idea what it’s like to not have access to affordable health-care.

 

[pnewton]

IMO, as long as it’s tied up in courts, the mandate shouldn’t kick in.

I think this is probably true. Until then, the best course is to ignore the immoral mandate and force the hand of the administration.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think this is probably true. Until then, the best course is to ignore the immoral mandate and force the hand of the administration.

They won’t have a choice. They’ll be fined $3000 per person who is uninsured.

Notre Dame U, it would cost them millions in fines.

I had just read that this mandate is in place in various states where the diocese just went ahead and paid for the heatlh insurance coverage for their employees, but asked their Catholic employees not to use the coverage.

Jim

 

[Suudy]

Go look at any common statistic on health care - like infant mortality, for instance. The US ranks just below Cuba on infant mortality. Our infant mortality rate is a third higher than either the UK or Canada with their supposedly terrible public health systems - despite the fact that we pay far more for healthcare. Our ranking on life expectancy is about the same, as is pretty much any metric on health care.

We’ve been over this. The difference of in infant mortality is explained by how countries define it.

nationalcenter.org/NPA547ComparativeHealth.html

From that paper:In summary, infant mortality is measured far too inconsistently to make cross-national comparisons useful. Thus, just like life expectancy, infant mortality is not a reliable measure of the relative merits of health care systems.Even the CBO acknowledges problems with this measure.

cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=6219&type=0

From that report;
Problems of definition and measurement, however, hamper cross-national comparisons of health statistics. Alternative measures of infant mortality may provide better information but cannot completely compensate for differences among countries in the overall rates of reporting of adverse pregnancy outcomes. For example, very premature births are more likely to be included in birth and mortality statistics in the United States than in several other industrialized countries that have lower infant mortality rates.

Variations in infant mortality rates among the states and between different racial and ethnic groups in this country are greater than the differences between the United States and many other countries. Black infant mortality rates, in particular, are exceptionally high, and the relative gap between black and white infant mortality rates has been increasing over time.

You seem to disagree - do you have some reason to believe our system is working better than most other developed countries’ systems? I have seen nothing that would indicate that.

You are defining the level of care as one of access, not quality. When people hear the phrase “third world,” they are reminded of shoddy, poorly run operations. That is certainly not the case in the US.

The issue is not one of quality, but of cost. And Obamacare does nothing to address costs. And certainly this contraceptive mandate isn’t important in bringing up our rankings.

 

[_Abyssinia]

The problem is the for-profit health-care system we have.

Unfortunately, the same people opposing Obama-Care are the same people who oppose a single payer universal health care system.

Jim

Most people, Catholic and non Catholics do not like the idea of a single payer system, you run into problems like this contraception mandate, and people like to pick and choose what they want when it comes to insurance, they do not want to be forced.

 

[pnewton]

They won’t have a choice. They’ll be fined $3000 per person who is uninsured.

Ther is always a choice. They do not have to pay the fine. This would force the issue to the courts. Then they can close the doors and terminate all employees. This too is a preferable option than committing sin.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Ther is always a choice. They do not have to pay the fine. This would force the issue to the courts. Then they can close the doors and terminate all employees. This too is a preferable option than committing sin.

Why do you hate the poor?

 

[Teelynn]

Sounds positive, I hope this mandate gets destroyed in the Supreme Court. Please sign the petition in my signature telling congress to have conscious protections.

There are a couple of bills now in Congress and in the Senate that are designed to protect religious freedom in health care. I think they are on the USCCB website. (that’s what I understand from Raymond Arroyo on EWTN) The problem being, says the Congressman he had on last night, these bills will pass the Congress but might (AGAIN!) get stuck in the Senate. Same ol same ol.

I can tell you as of now, I have an ongoing email fued with my Senator. He states that the President upon signing the executive order for conscience protection when the health care bill was passed was promising that “abortions” would not be covered. It’s of course a technicality. “Abortions” as in “abortion procedures”. Very clever.

 

[TMC]

We’ve been over this. The difference of in infant mortality is explained by how countries define it.

nationalcenter.org/NPA547ComparativeHealth.html

From that paper:In summary, infant mortality is measured far too inconsistently to make cross-national comparisons useful. Thus, just like life expectancy, infant mortality is not a reliable measure of the relative merits of health care systems.Even the CBO acknowledges problems with this measure.

cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=6219&type=0

From that report;
Problems of definition and measurement, however, hamper cross-national comparisons of health statistics. Alternative measures of infant mortality may provide better information but cannot completely compensate for differences among countries in the overall rates of reporting of adverse pregnancy outcomes. For example, very premature births are more likely to be included in birth and mortality statistics in the United States than in several other industrialized countries that have lower infant mortality rates.

Variations in infant mortality rates among the states and between different racial and ethnic groups in this country are greater than the differences between the United States and many other countries. Black infant mortality rates, in particular, are exceptionally high, and the relative gap between black and white infant mortality rates has been increasing over time.
You are defining the level of care as one of access, not quality. When people hear the phrase “third world,” they are reminded of shoddy, poorly run operations. That is certainly not the case in the US.

The issue is not one of quality, but of cost. And Obamacare does nothing to address costs. And certainly this contraceptive mandate isn’t important in bringing up our rankings.

Are you seriously suggesting that the US has one of the premier healthcare systems in the world? If so, I think you may be the only person in the US to feel that way.

I agree that access and quality are different, but quality is meaningless without access. The best meal in the world is of no use if its locked away from those that are hungry. Good medical care that is not actually available to those in need of it is neither "good’ nor “care”.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Are you seriously suggesting that the US has one of the premier healthcare systems in the world? If so, I think you may be the only person in the US to feel that way.

I agree that access and quality are different, but quality is meaningless without access. The best meal in the world is of no use if its locked away from those that are hungry. Good medical care that is not actually available to those in need of it is neither "good’ nor “care”.

What a joke. I have a low cost, high deductible healthcare plan with a health savings account. My annual healthcare costs are relatively low, primarily because my wife and I actually manage our health proactively! The problem is that there are a great many people who abuse their health, some aggregiously so, and want someone else to pick up the tab to fix the problems that they cause.

 

[TMC]

What a joke. I have a low cost, high deductible healthcare plan with a health savings account. My annual healthcare costs are relatively low, primarily because my wife and I actually manage our health proactively! The problem is that there are a great many people who abuse their health, some aggregiously so, and want someone else to pick up the tab to fix the problems that they cause.

There are also a great many people that don’t have any kind of healthcare plan, access to health savings accounts or money to put into the health savings account if they had one. Not all problems in the world can be laid at the feet of the person suffering the problem. And even if they could be, that does not alleviate our Christian responsibility to help those people.