Contradiction in traditional Requiem?

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orrcat

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Hello!

I’m quite amazed by the text in the Requiem Mass as used most notably by Mozart. Not being a catholic myself there’s one thing in this text I have a hard time understanding.

Here’s an example:

In the beginning and end of the Mass God is asked to give the person being buried eternal rest:
“Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.” (Grant them eternal rest, Lord and let perpetual light shine on them.)
This quote is found in both Introit: Requiem and Communion: Lux aeterna.

Also in Agnus dei there’s:
“dona eis requiem sempiternam” (grant them eternal rest forever)

But in the sequence (Beginning with Dies Irae) which is very much about Judgement Day God is asked to save the souls of the worthy from eternal fire and to grant them eternal life with Him, and in the Offertory Hositas there’s a plea to let the dead rise again:
“Faceas, Domine, de morte transire ad vitam” (And let them, Lord, pass from death to life.)

So how are these contradictory prayers to be understood? Why is God both asked to grant eternal rest and to grant eternal life?
 
I was going to say the same. Resting in God’s light would mean being granted eternal life.
 
Good reading, no matter the format. I had heard that fisheaters was DOA and that seems to be the case - unless it is subscription only.

As to hardcover copies, my personal fave is the Bishop Richard Challoner translation - he of the Douay-Rheims translation, as sold by Baronius. Solid little book that will last a lifetime.
 
Hello!

Thanks for shedding some light and giving further reading advice in this question how to understand the text. So if I understand this correctly this is not something that’s debated among catholics today (or even in Mozart’s time), everyone share more or less the same view? The matter was settled long ago?

@ [BartholomewB]: No I’m not a 7th Day Adventist.

@ [MiserereMeiDei]: Unfortunately that link does not work for me. Thanks anyway.
 
I don’t understand why you think this is a contradiction.

We pray that the dead may have eternal rest from the slings and arrows of this world and from purgatory. And enter the eternal life of the next.
 
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I’m only here to try to understand the thinking behind the text not debate. Since I’m not a catholic I think that would be inappropriate.

When I first read the text to Mozart’s Requiem I understood “eternal rest” as not being alive, but not sent to hell either. But then when I read further and understood it’s about resurrection I couldn’t really grasp the concept. “Requiem aeternam” and “morte transire ad vitam” seemed like a contradicition to me. Also the idea of living forever and resting forever are not contradictory but not really the same thing either from my personal perspective.

However, by asking here I get a better understanding the catholic view on the subject and I can see there are other viewpoints than mine.
 
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Fisheaters is still going fine. I think she was migrating her host server or something a bit ago so there were days where the forums were down. It’s totally free. It has a smaller user base though so the forum doesn’t move as fast as CAF.
po18guy said:
the Bishop Richard Challoner translation
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With his commentary? That’d be great. I just have the little pocket sized one.
 
The Augustine quote ‘we are restless o lord until we rest in you’ is the first thing that comes to mind when I read this thread. Rest and eternal life are the same thing. A thomist might say that we are created with a natural end, and we will not rest until we receive union with God, which is eternal life.
 
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orrcat said:
When I first read the text to Mozart’s Requiem
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It’s not really the text to Mozart’s Requiem. It is the text of the propers of the Requiem Mass regardless of the musical format. Mozart provided a musical setting for it. The Requiem Mass in Gregorian chant uses the same texts.
 
Eternal rest is the soul’s entry into Heaven. The resurrection unto glory occurs on Judgment Day, for all the souls in Heaven and Purgatory. Those who die without stain of venial sin nor owing any penance go directly to Heaven; those who die with venial sin and/or owing penance go to Purgatory for purification, which varies in intensity and duration for each soul, but in every case will be completed by the Resurrection of the Dead.
 
OraLabora said:
It’s not really the text to Mozart’s Requiem. It is the text of the propers of the Requiem Mass regardless of the musical format. Mozart provided a musical setting for it. The Requiem Mass in Gregorian chant uses the same texts.
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Yes, I know. That was meant to point out the reason why I came to read the text in the first place. I know the “Dies israe” part is medieval and I guess the rest is even older?
 
mythbuster1 said:
Eternal rest is the soul’s entry into Heaven. The resurrection unto glory occurs on Judgment Day, for all the souls in Heaven and Purgatory. Those who die without stain of venial sin nor owing any penance go directly to Heaven; those who die with venial sin and/or owing penance go to Purgatory for purification, which varies in intensity and duration for each soul, but in every case will be completed by the Resurrection of the Dead.
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OK, that’s interesting. Now I don’t quite follow. If you would place these events as a sequence in time, the order of events, what would that look like?

I wonder because it seems to me you say “Eternal rest” is prior to Judgement Day but in that case the Eternal rest is not eternal since it is followed by Judgement Day?
 
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They all pre-date Mozart. Except for the Dies Irae, they are all Bible verses, as are the vast majority of the Mass propers!

The Dies Irae on the other hand, is a Latin poem of trochaic metre. It goes back to at least the 13th century. Since the 1970 reform of the Mass, it is no longer used at Requiem Masses but has become the Divine Office hymn for the 34th week in Ordinary Time. It was divided into three parts for the Office of Readings, Lauds and Vespers with two new doxologies composed for the first two parts.

Mozart had nothing to do with the texts. All Requiems use the same texts whether Mozart’s, Verdi’s or the Gregorian. The Gregorian settings for the introit go back to around the 10th century.
 
I never liked the term “eternal rest” and “rest in peace” because it seems to imply we believe Heaven to be some kind of coma.

But, as others have said, eternal rest is rest from sin, from its consequences, from negative emotions and negative things from this world. We will rest because we won’t worry, but we will be still very active for other things in Heaven, praising to God and interceding for people eternally.

As to your last question in the thread, catholics believe there are two stages of Heaven: the Beatific Vision (before the End of the World/Final Judgement) and the New Jerusalem (after the Final Judgement, when this Universe is in some way “merged” with Heaven by God).

I don’t like the concept of Beatific Vision either! Because it makes us have two judgements (why?) and messes up with eternity (or aeviternity) atemporality. I very much prefer the hypothesis that, as eternity is atemporal, we resurrect in the Final Judgement immediately, and enter Hell or the New Jerusalem immediately. But that’s not catholic doctrine, just an hypothesis of mine.
 
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It’s important to note that liturgy is ritual prayer. In the Requiem, even though it is placed before the Sequence evoking Judgement Day, we are expressing the fervent hope that at Judgement Day our love one is granted eternal rest. And it will be rest, a rest from the pressures of this world where we will always be in a state of perfection, freed from the worldly pressures exerted on us down here.

Reading it as prayer instead as an eschatological sequence of events, makes it have sense.
 
AlbMagno said:
As to your last question in the thread, catholics believe there are two stages of Heaven: the Beatific Vision (before the End of the World/Final Judgement) and the New Jerusalem (after the Final Judgement, when this Universe is in some way “merged” with Heaven by God).
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Reading about Beatific Vision in Wikipedia clarified quite a lot of things for a non catholic like me of how the view of Judgement Day might have been during the 13th century when “Dies irae” probably was written.
 
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