Controversy erupts over Campus Republicans bake sale plans

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Rich_Olszewski said:
If “not all minorities,” then what minorities are you willing to discriminate against on the basis of skin color?

Fair skinned Swedes? “Yellow-skinned” Chinese? Dark-skinned Indians and Pakistanis?

This is a policy that arouses passion in many, but it is also a policy that is not likely to be overturned or eliminated. I support Affirmative Action, and I’m certain that it will still be a factor in college admissions and job hiring indefinitely. I lose no sleep over it.
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But what if you lost a job over it?
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
  1. Racial discrimination
  2. Lack of a home environment conducive to success in school or at job acquisition
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So we have three factors that lead to these undesirable outcomes, two of which are completely unrelated to race. We have no affirmative action for poor people, nor do we have affirmative action for people from a poor home environment. As to racial discrimination, all we need there are anti-discrimination laws, so AA is a particularly bad policy to solve this problem.
 
DaddyGirl said:
The problem, tho…is that income does not always parallel gender or race.

So for those who say this is showing teaching liberals a lesson…I don’t think so!
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Then, the liberals didn’t put their thinking caps on. The fact that income does not always parallel gender or race is exactly the point. A wealthy African American would still pay less for his baked good, whereas the impoverished white guy would pay more. This is how affirmative action works…
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
  1. Racial discrimination
  2. Lack of a home environment conducive to success in school or at job acquisition
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Racial discrimination is not best fixed by racial discrimination,

I agree that the home environment is an issue. How does race play into that? How does affirmative action fix that problem?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
So we have three factors that lead to these undesirable outcomes, two of which are completely unrelated to race. We have no affirmative action for poor people, nor do we have affirmative action for people from a poor home environment. As to racial discrimination, all we need there are anti-discrimination laws, so AA is a particularly bad policy to solve this problem.
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Exactly. Maybe there are more factors that NonServium can come up with where affirmative action is the best solution to the problem.
 
stinkcat_14 said:
As to racial discrimination, all we need there are anti-discrimination laws, so AA is a particularly bad policy to solve this problem.
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Then go find a better solution, work it out, and implement it. Get your conservative politicians to can AA and install what you and they think is a better way to get rid of the inequities. I’m comfortable with AA, as are most liberals, but I am equally dead sure that your conservative pols aren’t going to do anything to dismantle it.

Talk all you want about how nasty and evil it is and about what a racist I am (as some have), but I’ll betcha that even four years from now, AA will still be operational.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Then go find a better solution, work it out, and implement it. Get your conservative politicians to can AA and install what you and they think is a better way to get rid of the inequities.
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One of the things we are trying to implement is school choice through voucher programs. Liberals apparently prefer to keep the kids in failing schools and just lower the bar to get them into college. 👍

Don’t want to upset the Teacher’s Union…
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
I’m comfortable with AA, as are most liberals, but I am equally dead sure that your conservative pols aren’t going to do anything to dismantle it.
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What would you say to the poor white kid from a dysfunctional family who is discriminated against by AA?
 
stinkcat_14 said:
What would you say to the poor white kid from a dysfunctional family who is discriminated against by AA?
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Sorry, I’m not into “hearts and flowers,” but I’ll say that more important than anything else in your example, there’s the problem of a dysfunctional family to start with - even a full scholarship to Harvard isn’t going to be much use to that kid until the family problems are worked out and that might take psychiatric counseling, not just being pushed to the head of the line.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Sorry, I’m not into “hearts and flowers,” but I’ll say that more important than anything else in your example, there’s the problem of a dysfunctional family to start with - even a full scholarship to Harvard isn’t going to be much use to that kid until the family problems are worked out and that might take psychiatric counseling, not just being pushed to the head of the line.
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:confused: But, if an African American kid is in the circumstance, you are okay with it? :confused:
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Sorry, I’m not into “hearts and flowers,” but I’ll say that more important than anything else in your example, there’s the problem of a dysfunctional family to start with - even a full scholarship to Harvard isn’t going to be much use to that kid until the family problems are worked out and that might take psychiatric counseling, not just being pushed to the head of the line.
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In other words, if you are of the wrong race, you are ignored and on your own. So much for the liberal idea of fairness in society, it is a bit to arbitrary for me.
 
To build off of Rich’s list:
  1. Poverty
  2. Racial discrimination
  3. Lack of a home environment conducive to success in school or at job acquisition.
  4. Lack of sufficient funding for schools predominantly attended by minorities.
“Racial discrimination” is actually an umbrella term for a whole host of inequities built into the system, from discrimination in practices of hiring, in the criminal justice system, in housing segregation, to less egregious examples of discrimination that, taken as a whole, can contribute to the feeling of being a second-class citizen (being watched suspiciously in a store, being stopped more often when driving, having difficulty hailing a cab, etc.).

And, keep in mind, we’re not just talking about all of these problems as problems that sprung into being with this generation. Most of these problems have their roots in older problems, like actual slavery, in the more in-your-face versions of racism that existed in generations past (including outright lynchings), and in the construction of minorities as Other and as second-class citizens. These problems are additionally exacerbated by the current state of the economy – when there are not as many jobs to be had, even by people who have more opportunities for education – and an increase in illegal immigrant labor, which takes more jobs away from an already starved job market.

Now, any of these issues, in isolation, could greatly contribute to a group being oppressed, but all of them, taken together, have produced a vast disparity between races that is only just starting to get better.

So no, we’re not talking about “let’s help out the poor!” or “let’s help out people from broken homes!” or “let’s help out anyone who’s ever had trouble hailing a cab!” We’re talking about a massive, wide-spread web of inequality that can’t be reduced to any one particular problem, but that produces effects that we, as a society, don’t like.

Obviously, I’m not saying that every minority faces all of these problems, just as I’m not trying to claim that no white person has any serious problems. Again, this is a broad, societal issue. Looking at it in the big picture, there are serious inequities in the system and serious problems. People are not starting with equal advantages, so it is absolutely racial discrimination to treat them as if they do have those equal advantages. Think of it as discrimination of omission.

Now, the question is, what are we going to do about it? We could do nothing. That’s an option. As I noted, unfairness, inequality, and discrimination are parts of life, and you’re always going to have it, so one option here is to just say, “Oh well, too bad.”

But such a response is short-sighted and, in the long run, will probably be bad for society. Any plan that involves essentially ignoring the serious plight of a significant segment of the population is, generally speaking, a pretty stupid plan in the long run. So, being the kind of people who want to avoid stupid plans, we decide to do something.

So what shall we do? Well, hold on to your hats, this may be a radical suggestion, but: how about we take those inequalities into consideration when we make decisions about certain things that have to do with social advancement? They won’t be the be-all and end-all of the decision-making process, of course. But they’ll be taken into consideration.

Someone who comes from a background that is more likely to have had fewer advantages is given a bit more of a break than someone who comes from a background that is more likely to have a whole lot more advantages. Now is that “discrimination”? Of course – we already said that there’s always going to be discrimination. We decided already that this new kind of discrimination was better than the other kind discrimination we had, which we concluded would probably be “stupid” and a “bad plan” in the long run. Remember all this? OK, good, try to stay with me.

Now, is this new plan “unfair”? Maybe, in some circumstances. Again, life is unfair, so you’re not going to have perfect fairness. Under any plan, you’ll always be able to find a handful of sob stories and oh-woe-is-me stories. But we’re not focusing on individuals here: the point is society, the big picture, social effects.

And in the big picture, this kind of policy is more conducive to addressing those inequities and making the kinds of change we want.

Sheesh. Don’t make me explain it again.
 
Thanks for adding a fourth…
  1. Lack of sufficient funding for schools predominantly attended by minorities.
That isn’t fixed by affirmative action either…

You guys are striking out.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Sorry, I’m not into “hearts and flowers,” but I’ll say that more important than anything else in your example, there’s the problem of a dysfunctional family to start with - even a full scholarship to Harvard isn’t going to be much use to that kid until the family problems are worked out and that might take psychiatric counseling, not just being pushed to the head of the line.
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Actually I need to respond to this again to point out what Rich is actually saying. The hypothetical was a poor white kid from a dysfunctional family gets discriminated against. So let’s say that this kid beats the odds and qualifies to go to Harvard, and yet is discriminated against because of AA.

What is Rich’s response: Because you come from a dysfunctional family you have no business in Harvard anyway? So much for the liberal compassion!
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Sorry, I’m not into “hearts and flowers,” but I’ll say that more important than anything else in your example, there’s the problem of a dysfunctional family to start with - even a full scholarship to Harvard isn’t going to be much use to that kid until the family problems are worked out and that might take psychiatric counseling, not just being pushed to the head of the line.
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Even a full scholarship to Harvard isn’t going to be much use to a black girl who has been discriminated against her whole life and subject to all levels of mental abuse; you can’t just push her to the head of the line and expect that warm week-long “I MADE IT!” feeling to keep her going.
 
rlg94086 said:
Thanks for adding a fourth…
  1. Lack of sufficient funding for schools predominantly attended by minorities.
That isn’t fixed by affirmative action either…

You guys are striking out.
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It’s not a game. It’s a serious problem and I’d like to see you people propose some solutions, rather than just try to make points by knocking us personally.
 
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