Controversy erupts over Campus Republicans bake sale plans

[Rich_Olszewski]

You have not read the post properly.
But it does not matter.

I thought I read it correctly.

I’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make. It’s obvious that you oppose AA, and you have given some reasons why. I’ve tried to do the same from the POV of one who supports the policy. I see your point of view and hope that you see mine.

 

[vz71]

I see your point of view and hope that you see mine.

I believe I do, i just cannot believe what I am seeing.

Let me know if I understand your position…
The policy provides an advantage to people that have been oppressed or wronged in some way in the past.
It discriminates based upon skin color and sex among other things. And provides for an advantage against others that may have been likewise oppressed or disadvantaged in favor of the special minority that has whatever physical trait AA has decided is the right one.
But this discrimination is OK since there is a greater good to be worked for.
BUT we will not know this greater good if and/or when it arrives.
AA will be continued in perpituity since we do not have hard conditions established to determine the end of AA.
But this does not matter either since AA assures votes and can be considered political suicide to whatever party removes it.
And whether or not it is morally wrong (the discrimination) does not matter since it is the votes that count and the majority all agree.

I am nearly speechless.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I believe I do, i just cannot believe what I am seeing.

Let me know if I understand your position…
The policy provides an advantage to people that have been oppressed or wronged in some way in the past.

Yes.

It discriminates based upon skin color and sex among other things. And provides for an advantage against others that may have been likewise oppressed or disadvantaged in favor of the special minority that has whatever physical trait AA has decided is the right one.

The advantage is against those who are not likewise oppressed.

But this discrimination is OK since there is a greater good to be worked for.

Yes.

BUT we will not know this greater good if and/or when it arrives.
AA will be continued in perpituity since we do not have hard conditions established to determine the end of AA.

Like abortion, there is no date certain.

But this does not matter either since AA assures votes and can be considered political suicide to whatever party removes it.

Yes. There’s no doubt about that.

And whether or not it is morally wrong (the discrimination) does not matter since it is the votes that count and the majority all agree.

If not the votes, then what?

I am nearly speechless.

I don’t doubt that.

 

[vz71]

The advantage is against those who are not likewise oppressed.

How exactly is that determined?
I have seen provisions to discriminate based upon race, sex, and a few other things…but have seen nothing to really determine oppression past or present for either party.

I don’t doubt that.

I am sure you keyed off of ‘nearly’
Generally, if I find a topic I can sink my teeth into I’ll be there until the moderators kill it.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

How exactly is that determined?
I have seen provisions to discriminate based upon race, sex, and a few other things…but have seen nothing to really determine oppression past or present for either party.

I think the determinants vary from institution to institution. I really don’t know, as I’ve never worked in college admissions or in Human Resources.

I am sure you keyed off of ‘nearly’
Generally, if I find a topic I can sink my teeth into I’ll be there until the moderators kill it.

Don’t understand your first sentence.

 

[vz71]

I think the determinants vary from institution to institution. I really don’t know, as I’ve never worked in college admissions or in Human Resources.

No, you gave us the definition of AA a couple of times now.
It discriminates based upon race.

So where exactly is the determination that the benefeciary has actually been oppressed or otherwise persecuted?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

No, you gave us the definition of AA a couple of times now.
It discriminates based upon race.

So where exactly is the determination that the benefeciary has actually been oppressed or otherwise persecuted?

There is no, as we call it in law, Bright Line that governs all cases and gives an exact point at which that disadvantage will be meaningful. The institution would have to make a case-by-case determination. Not all blacks would get preference over whites.

 

[vz71]

There is no exact point that governs all cases. The institution would have to make a case-by-case determination. Not all blacks would get preference over whites.

You are ducking the question again.

You provided the definition for AA a couple of times now.
Where exactly is the injustice it is supposed to correct determined?
Which factor in your definitions covers this?
How?

 

[rlg94086]

I would like to focus on AA at the College/University level. Now it would seem to me that education institutes like these can’t accept everyone that applies so choices would have to be made. I believe that every University can have academic factors (A’s or B’s) that can remove some of the applicants and I would say that is not discrimination in a bad sense. However even the C students should be allowed to enter some College’s or Universities in their respective area.

I would say that perhaps the way to effectively eliminate AA without it costing either party is to have more post secondary institutions because the underlying problem with it currently is not AA but that demand for post secondary education greatly exceeds supply. Is it not feasible for more Post secondary institutions to be opened?

Your argument that it is very much a matter of supply and demand and more supply would tend to alleviate the problem is a sound one in my opinion. Even junior college can be a stepping stone to a full college or a university for it allows the student, denied enrollment, to show how well he or she can do.

Best recommendation on the thread!

I would add that I favor a return to the states subsidizing junior colleges and state universities more. I know it is a state by state thing. When I was growing up in California, you could get an inexpensive education at the state schools (some of them really good ones!) as a state resident. That is not the case anymore. California has a HUGE budget and tax base, so I’m guessing it became less of a priorty than other social programs.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Best recommendation on the thread!

Agree again.

I would add that I favor a return to the states subsidizing junior colleges and state universities more. I know it is a state by state thing. When I was growing up in California, you could get an inexpensive education at the state schools (some of them really good ones!) as a state resident. That is not the case anymore. California has a HUGE budget and tax base, so I’m guessing it became less of a priorty than other social programs.

To the detriment of all potential students. Hard to argue that against Cal’s money troubles.

 

[rlg94086]

To the detriment of all potential students. Hard to argue that against Cal’s money troubles.

I don’t know the extent of California’s problem, but I know that I live in a state with the same (or lower, depending on zip code) sales tax and no income tax. The state south of me has the same income tax with no sales tax. California, with both and a larger per capita income, is more messed up than either of our states.

 

[stinkcat_14]

No. Yes, some Caucasians may be discriminated against. The benefits outweigh the negatives in my opinion and in the opinion of those who have promulgated the policy.

Where is the morality is saying that it is ok for someone else to be discriminated against? If you want to harrm yourself to better things for members of a minority group that would be admirable. But there is nothing admirable in advocating for someone else to be discriminated against so a member of a minority group might benefit.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I wonder how many blacks will be discriminated against in favor of legal Hispanic workers. Go to the construction companies and ask which they would prefer. I’ve worked with both, and I was told myself by a foreman that he was hoping to hire a Mexican. AA may help minorities, doesnt mean it will be the blacks.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I would like to focus on AA at the College/University level. Now it would seem to me that education institutes like these can’t accept everyone that applies so choices would have to be made. I believe that every University can have academic factors (A’s or B’s) that can remove some of the applicants and I would say that is not discrimination in a bad sense. However even the C students should be allowed to enter some College’s or Universities in their respective area.

I would say that perhaps the way to effectively eliminate AA without it costing either party is to have more post secondary institutions because the underlying problem with it currently is not AA but that demand for post secondary education greatly exceeds supply. Is it not feasible for more Post secondary institutions to be opened?

The demand for post-secondary education is grossly overinflated. The kids with the Occupy Wall Street are a shining example of too much education and not enough market need for it.

 

[iamrefreshed]

The demand for post-secondary education is grossly overinflated. The kids with the Occupy Wall Street are a shining example of too much education and not enough market need for it.

Academia, courthouses, town halls any government/union white collar job is near impossible to find. The run is over. These kids who thought they could get a degree and live off the public teat for 20 years and retire before 50 are SOL.

But, try and find a plumber.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Academia, courthouses, town halls any government/union white collar job is near impossible to find. The run is over. These kids who thought they could get a degree and live off the public teat for 20 years and retire before 50 are SOL.

But, try and find a plumber.

Plumbing is beneath them. Its a dirty blue collar job. Eeww!

 

[Darryl1958]

The demand for post-secondary education is grossly overinflated. The kids with the Occupy Wall Street are a shining example of too much education and not enough market need for it.

Watering down the standards through affirmative action, but even more through all the fluff programs being offered, hasn’t much helped to market the end product either.
Occupy Wall Street protesters are prime examples of an end product whose brains are essentially mush. Who’d even want to hire someone like that for any kind of job?

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

You are ducking the question again.

You provided the definition for AA a couple of times now.
Where exactly is the injustice it is supposed to correct determined?
Which factor in your definitions covers this?
How?

Sorry, I work in the law. That field, like medicine, has no “exactlys.” I work in an area that is almost always some shade of gray. If you’re not satisfied with my answer, call me whatever names you want. That was my answer.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I wonder how many blacks will be discriminated against in favor of legal Hispanic workers. Go to the construction companies and ask which they would prefer. I’ve worked with both, and I was told myself by a foreman that he was hoping to hire a Mexican. AA may help minorities, doesnt mean it will be the blacks.

I’ve had my home re-roofed, by Hispanic workers, and the work was outstanding. No AA involved at all - truth be told, the men were likely illegals - but the work didn’t suffer.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

The demand for post-secondary education is grossly overinflated. The kids with the Occupy Wall Street are a shining example of too much education and not enough market need for it.

I agree. One of my sons is a television cameraman, the other in college. I’ve told the college boy that his degree isn’t going to be worth much. Better to join the AF or Navy and learn a good trade that will leave him better off than a huge percentage of degreed kids will be.