Conversations With A Catholic-turned-Mormon-now-confused...

[xixxvmcm85]

Greetings!

About four months ago, a young man from CAF e-mailed me concerning a post of mine (the post was in regards to his claiming to be simultaneously Mormon and Catholic). Since then, we’ve exchanged e-mails almost every other day.

He was born and raised Catholic, but converted to the LDS church (by virtue of his friend being an LDS convert) but currently practices both faiths. He originally said he does so in order to have “twice the chance of having chosen correctly”. My initial correspondence with him simply concerned his fence-straddling but over time the conversation has evolved into an apologetic one. He, though having been raised in a Catholic home, knew little about his childhood faith evident in the typical ignorant questions such as “Why then do Catholics worship Mary?”

My initial intent was only to demonstrate the flaws in his logic of “serving two masters” so to speak, but now he seems to e-mail me with any and every question he has about both the Catholic and Mormon faiths. Over the past four months I’ve helped him understand better the Petrine office, Jesus’ promise of indefectibility in the church, the Saints’ role as intercessors, the authentically Christian dogma of the Trinity, the Biblical nature of Purgatory, the Catholic origin of the Bible itself, and most importantly the uniquely Apostolic nature of the Catholic Church.

Though I’m doing my very best, I don’t quite feel qualified to speak about all this as I’m still in RCIA myself, yet at the same time I feel a duty to do so as he trusts me (for whatever reason), not to mention I feel as if we’re friends now since we also talk about school, sports, girls, among many other things. I’m diligently going forth doing the best I can in defending the tenets of the faith with which I will be in full communion come Easter 2009.

The conversations climaxed today when I received an e-mail from him (after about 2 weeks of inactivity). In it he asked:

“How did you remove your name from the LDS church? Is there some kind of letter I send? To whom do I send it? Will the church bother me afterwards when I send such a letter?”

Shocked in the rapid evolution of his spirituality, I sent him an e-mail asking for more information about his “reversion”. He thanked me for teaching him about certain “Mormon skeletons” about which he was never taught as well as the biblical basis of Catholicism. He told me that he isn’t 100% certain that the Catholic Church is true, but he is confident he is making the correct choice. He stated that he desired “to be in full communion with Christ’s Church again”.

Satisfied that he wasn’t making a hasty decision to abandon the church to which he had converted for the same foolish reasons by which he first left the Catholic faith, I sent him my story of exactly how I resigned from the LDS church. Here’s what I sent him:

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Saludos XXXXX!

Acabo de pensar en tí el otro día y tuve planes en escribirte un e-mail el fin de semana pasado, though unfortunately I became swamped with school work. I think I over-did it with my course load. I’m currently taking “Human Cardiovascular & Central-Nervous System”, “Physics of Motion & Kinematics”, “Biochemistry III”, “Neurophysiology II”, (which comes out to 20 semester units) I’m performing the finishing touches on my externship with Lawrence Berkeley Biolabs (thesis writing and what-not), mientras que trabajo casi 30 horas a la semana en mi trabajo!!!

AHHH! ME FALTA EL TIEMPO PARA DORMIR!!! lol

Anyway, how have you been? Espero que tus clases te tratan bien. Has buscado algunas universidades para asistir el año que viene? Little tip: Try to find some high school internships that are geared around what you’d like to do (Te vas a dedicar a las empresas, verdad?). They’re fun, and usually happen during the summer (and sometimes you even get paid $$$ for them!). Once you finish it/them, you can include it/them on your college applications/personal statement, and it will either increase your chances of being accepted or increase the likelihood that you’ll receive a scholarship. Did I mention they’re a great way to meet girls? Jaja

But back to your question:

I removed my name from the LDS church membership by writing a letter to the “Member Records Division of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. The address is:

Member Records Division, LDS Church
50 E North Temple Rm 1372
SLC UT 84150-5310

Essentially, I stated that the letter served as an IMMEDIATE resignation from the LDS church AND that I FULLY UNDERSTOOD THE CONSEQUENCES OF SAID ACTION.

Unfortunately because the LDS church functions like a business, they treat their members as if they were in a binding contract (which is NOT the actual case). Here in the United States, you and everyone else have a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT to resign from his/her church when and how he/she pleases. Now just like a “good business”, the LDS church will try to impose a “waiting time” or insist that the matter of one’s resignation is “of an ecclesiastical nature and best suited for further action from your local bishop” (This is what a response letter to mine said from the Church. The next week my bishop CAME TO MY HOUSE UNINVITED to speak with me, so either expect this or explicitly state in your letter that you will NOT TOLERATE any follow up visits or hesitation in action from the Church).

Expect the church to “drag its tail” so its important to cover all of your bases in the letter. Some things to include:

• That you have given this matter GREAT thought, and have come to an INFORMED, TEMPERED, AND RATIONAL decision to remove your name. Make sure you mention explicitly that this action taken on your part is YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.
• That you expect the matter to be handled IMMEDIATELY and BY MEMBERSHIP DIVISION. Explicitly state that you will not tolerate any further correspondence from the church be it written, electronic, or personal visits EXCEPT one single letter confirming that your name has been successfully removed.
• That you fully understand that removing one’s name from the church membership records includes complete revocation of church membership, ecclesiastical ordinances (i.e. baptism, confirmation, etc), as well as priesthood membership and any current temple recommends/blessings (if you have them). Also state that you fully understand the alleged spiritual consequences of such including the Mormon’s view that you will spend eternity in “Outer Darkness” unless you rejoin the church.

Its important to spell out EXACTLY what you expect to be done, by whom, and what you expect NOT TO BE DONE. Failure to do this may result in harassment by local church members (i.e. your bishop may coerce you to “wait a little bit” before making such a “hasty” decision or [even worse] he may try to convene a “disciplinary council” which tries to find “grave sin in your life” so that they can “excommunicate you” before you “officially leave”.)

{continued below}

 

[xixxvmcm85]

{continued from above}

If you’re a little apprehensive to write such a letter on your own, I took the liberty of finding a sample letter on the web and added some bits that I thought were important. Here’s the sample letter (feel free to just use this and/or alter it if you please):

Your name
Your date of birth
Your current address

The date
Member Records Division, LDS Church
50 E North Temple Rm 1372
SLC UT 84150-5310

This letter is my formal resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and it is effective immediately. I hereby withdraw my consent to being treated as a member and I withdraw my consent to being subject to church rules, policies, beliefs and ‘discipline’. As I am no longer a member, I want my name permanently and completely removed from the membership rolls of the church.

I have given this matter considerable thought. I understand what you consider the ‘seriousness’ and the ‘consequences’ of my actions. I am aware that the church handbook says that my resignation “cancels the effects of baptism and confirmation, withdraws the priesthood held by a male member and revokes temple blessings” I also understand that I will be “readmitted to the church by baptism only after a thorough interview”. (quotes from the current Church Handbook of Instructions)

My resignation should be processed immediately, without any ‘waiting periods’. I am not going to be dissuaded and I am not going to change my mind. I expect this matter to be handled promptly, with respect and with full confidentiality.

After today, the only contact I want from the church is a single letter of confirmation to let me know that I am no longer listed as a member of the church. I expect no further correspondence from the church, be it written, verbal, electronic, or personal visits save for this ONE letter of confirmation. Any violation of such requests will be interpreted as explicit harassment, and if needed I will execute any and all legal protocol in protecting my civil rights.

(you can add any comments or reasons here)

Sincerely,

Your signature
Your name, printed

Anyhow, Buena suerte XXXXX y no te olvides mandarme otro e-mail si necesites mas consejo. Como te dije que estaré un poco ocupado la semana que viene, hay una posibilidad que no tendré el tiempo para “chequear mi email”, así te doy mi # pa’que me hables quando quieras.

~Amigo tuyo en Cristo,
~B.

A few hours later he sent me an e-mail in which he said:

you just scare me now when u said “Also state that you fully understand the alleged spiritual consequences of such including the Mormon’s view that you will spend eternity in “Outer Darkness” unless you rejoin the church (and in the case you should later decide to rejoin the church, you understand that re-baptism as well as a “thorough interview” will be required).” that really scares me a lot because i think about being outer darkness for eternity and then i say maybe i should just be mormon and catholic and that way i’ll have to opportunities of being right. now u make me think about this again i really dont know what i want i really thought that i was making a good decesion after i talk to u

I’m not certain what it is I said (or failed to say) that essentially undid 4 months of his journey back into the Catholic fold. I feel responsible for this, and quite frankly feel as if I did something that unintentionally hurt a friend spiritually.

I’m curious if any Catholics familiar with apologetics would be able to help me. Is there something in my e-mail I said that I shouldn’t have (or at least should have worded differently)?

Is there something I failed to mention?

What can I do to help this young man get back on track in the direction he was going? It seems he’s right back to the illogical decision of “I’ll be both Catholic and Mormon in order to have twice the chance of being correct” which initially got our electronic friendship going!!!

Help!! I’m STUCK!!!

~In Christ,
B

 

[Veritas248]

I’ve studied apologetics in my free time over the last couple years,and although I’m no expert, I think I see the problem. He said that the possibility of spending eternity in the outer darkness scared him, if I read correctly. It seems that your friend still thinks the Mormon church has a possibility of being correct. My suggestion is to prove to him that there is no possibility of the Mormon church being correct at all.

 

[po18guy]

A few hours later he sent me an e-mail in which he said:

I’m not certain what it is I said (or failed to say) that essentially undid 4 months of his journey back into the Catholic fold. I feel responsible for this, and quite frankly feel as if I did something that unintentionally hurt a friend spiritually.

I’m curious if any Catholics familiar with apologetics would be able to help me. Is there something in my e-mail I said that I shouldn’t have (or at least should have worded differently)?

Is there something I failed to mention?

What can I do to help this young man get back on track in the direction he was going? It seems he’s right back to the illogical decision of “I’ll be both Catholic and Mormon in order to have twice the chance of being correct” which initially got our electronic friendship going!!!

Help!! I’m STUCK!!!

~In Christ,
B

If there is any failure, it would be failure to pray for him as much as you talk to him. The Holy Spirit accomplishes conversions, not us.

LDS is a house of cards, founded on one megalomaniac’s plagiarism and hallucinations. To them, Joseph Smith and Jesus are inseparable. Once he questions and loses his LDS faith, he may become atheistic for a time.

Also, the missionaries likely got to him. Not much you can do about that, except pray.

 

[tundramom]

You’re not responsible for his fear. I assume you’re an ex-Mormon and you know the manipulation and control that the fear of a person wishing to exit experiences.

Keep up the friendship and don’t lose hope. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to bring the young man back to the Catholic faith. Just be the example you are being and don’t let guilt over-ride your friendship with him. He needs you and just because he isn’t quite ready doesn’t mean that seeds aren’t planted and all that.

Sometimes it takes years to undo the damage of Mormonism. I know that there are sometimes even still that I have to stop myself and realize I’d just had a “mormon thought”.

I’m praying for your fellowship with him… Good job!

in Christ
Steph

 

[xixxvmcm85]

If there is any failure, it would be failure to pray for him as much as you talk to him. The Holy Spirit accomplishes conversions, not us.

Indeed! And he’s been in my prayers since the first day he began asking me questions.

LDS is a house of cards, founded on one megalomaniac’s plagiarism and hallucinations. To them, Joseph Smith and Jesus are inseparable. Once he questions and loses his LDS faith, he may become atheistic for a time.

Indeed! That was the case for me. I considered myself atheist/agnostic for nearly two years after resigning from the LDS Church. It’s difficult to feel anything spiritual after feeling like you’ve been lied to your entire life.

I have more hope for him than I did for myself as he wasn’t raised LDS and as far as I know, his entire family is still Catholic.

Also, the missionaries likely got to him. Not much you can do about that, except pray.

Yes. His friend brought the missionaries to him, which first got the ball rolling on his conversion. As a former LDS who vehemently despises the tactics employed by LDS missionaries, I’ve been making it a point to allow him to lead our religious conversations rather than the other way around.

As I stated, before giving him information on how to resign from the LDS church, I inquired as to his motives as to make sure he wasn’t leaving the LDS church due to similar foolish tactics that got him to leave the Catholic Church in the first place.

Thanks everyone for your help so far!!!

 

[xixxvmcm85]

You’re not responsible for his fear. I assume you’re an ex-Mormon and you know the manipulation and control that the fear of a person wishing to exit experiences.

Keep up the friendship and don’t lose hope. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to bring the young man back to the Catholic faith. Just be the example you are being and don’t let guilt over-ride your friendship with him. He needs you and just because he isn’t quite ready doesn’t mean that seeds aren’t planted and all that.

Sometimes it takes years to undo the damage of Mormonism. I know that there are sometimes even still that I have to stop myself and realize I’d just had a “mormon thought”.

I’m praying for your fellowship with him… Good job!

in Christ
Steph

Oh yes! Don’t get me wrong, I have no intentions of abandoning the friendship based on his spiritual decisions (whatever those end up being).

I’m just worried that I may be giving him either the wrong impression of the church, or of reversion. As I said, I’ve been praying for him and it seems the more I pray, the more he asks questions (almost as if the answer to the prayer is to answer his questions).

This then gets me in a bind as I myself am still on a journey to conversion!

I’ve advised him to corroborate things that I tell him with a priest or at least with the apologists on CAF yet he seems reluctant to.

So, I’m just trying to do the best I can with what I have.

PS: LOL about the “having Mormon thoughts” remark. Still a unpleasantly frequent occurrence for me

 

[vee8]

My two cents on what I might say to him.
One of the lines that really stayed in my mind after watching The Passion was Jesus saying “the servant is no greater than his master.” So if you really have Jesus as your king then which religion truly has Jesus as its king, its master? Is it Mormonism where they knock on your door to get you to join, and once in it sounds very creepy & cultish to me how hard it is to leave. Or is it Catholicism with apostolic succession, the Holy Eucharist and the real presence of Jesus, no forcing someone to join and in fact making them go through months of rcia to make sure they are ready? And if someone wants to quit gong to church and even to not call themselves Catholic anymore most people wont bother you only Jesus whispering, I love you come back, here I AM in the Eucharist.

Hopefully something in that can help you to reply to your friend if not Im sure other posters wll have good answers.

 

[po18guy]

Indeed! And he’s been in my prayers since the first day he began asking me questions.

Indeed! That was the case for me. I considered myself atheist/agnostic for nearly two years after resigning from the LDS Church. It’s difficult to feel anything spiritual after feeling like you’ve been lied to your entire life.

I have more hope for him than I did for myself as he wasn’t raised LDS and as far as I know, his entire family is still Catholic.

Yes. His friend brought the missionaries to him, which first got the ball rolling on his conversion. As a former LDS who vehemently despises the tactics employed by LDS missionaries, I’ve been making it a point to allow him to lead our religious conversations rather than the other way around.

As I stated, before giving him information on how to resign from the LDS church, I inquired as to his motives as to make sure he wasn’t leaving the LDS church due to similar foolish tactics that got him to leave the Catholic Church in the first place.

Thanks everyone for your help so far!!!

Well, tell him that LDS is easy to join and very difficult to leave. The Catholic Church is difficult to join and very easy to leave. Which more closely represents the free will our Lord blessed us with? He has been pounded with fear by the LDS, as reflected in his last email.

I would take charge of the conversations, since, at this point, you’ve lost him. That is the LDS tactic, bedside lies and deception. Fear is the evil one’s tool. Love and faith are the antidote. Separate him from the LDS influence if you can. The missionaries are just as afraid as your friend is. I suspect that most LDS are afraid, both to stay and to leave.

 

[po18guy]

Indeed! And he’s been in my prayers since the first day he began asking me questions.

Try prayer before Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Expect a miracle. Be patient. Many are converted on their death beds. He appears to be a long way from that.

 

[why_me]

The waiting time is actually very quick. He will be taking from the roles and receive a nice letter that it has been done. No problem. It is also painless.

 

[why_me]

Well, tell him that LDS is easy to join and very difficult to leave. The Catholic Church is difficult to join and very easy to leave. Which more closely represents the free will our Lord blessed us with? He has been pounded with fear by the LDS, as reflected in his last email.

I would take charge of the conversations, since, at this point, you’ve lost him. That is the LDS tactic, bedside lies and deception. Fear is the evil one’s tool. Love and faith are the antidote. Separate him from the LDS influence if you can. The missionaries are just as afraid as your friend is. I suspect that most LDS are afraid, both to stay and to leave.

I don’t think so. Many lds fall inactive in the faith and do just fine. Others leave the faith without a hitch or a problem. For some members it is difficult to leave because they have maybe felt the witness that it is true. Others who have not, should have no problem in leaving. But to deny that witness is a problem that many face because it was sooooo strong.

And so, it is easy to leave the catholic church because people receive no witness that it is true when they are members? Probably not. It is just a difference in religious cultures.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t think so. Many lds fall inactive in the faith and do just fine. Others leave the faith without a hitch or a problem. For some members it is difficult to leave because they have maybe felt the witness that it is true. Others who have not, should have no problem in leaving. But to deny that witness is a problem that many face because it was sooooo strong.

And so, it is easy to leave the catholic church because people receive no witness that it is true when they are members? Probably not. It is just a difference in religious cultures.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the truth that the Catholic Church teaches. It’s cult vs. culture. LDS is not a revealed religion, just as Islam is not. Both are the product of massive male polygamist/pedophile egos, who wrote their own “scripture”. Both are “great deceptions”. Both use threats to maintain allegiance. One is peaceful (now) and one is violent. Neither leads to the truth, as neither has its foundation in truth.

May the Holy Spirit open your eyes.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I don’t think so. Many lds fall inactive in the faith and do just fine. Others leave the faith without a hitch or a problem. For some members it is difficult to leave because they have maybe felt the witness that it is true. Others who have not, should have no problem in leaving. But to deny that witness is a problem that many face because it was sooooo strong.

And so, it is easy to leave the catholic church because people receive no witness that it is true when they are members? Probably not. It is just a difference in religious cultures.

I think PoGuy was not referring to a person’s individual reluctance to leave the LDS Church, rather the Church’s reluctance to let go of a member once said member has made the decision to leave.

Your appeal to alleged truth can be a two way street. I’ve been attending Mass at my Parish long enough to have gotten to know what I call the “Emotional Catholic”, or in other words, the Catholic who remains a Catholic simply out of habitualization, who will confide in you that they don’t necessarily believe in the church yet they are reluctant to leave out of some kind of internalized emotion. Whatever the religion, these “emotion Catholics” or “emotion Mormons” are simply people stuck between two possibilities about which they are confused. In the end, they will either find a renewal of faith or the courage to leave.

Anyway, I’m not certain why exactly the LDS church does this, but requests to remove one’s name from the roles always seems to be forwarded to his/her Bishop and then he takes whatever action he personally wishes.

When I requested a name removal, the Church sent me a generic “Not our problem, the Bishop will be speaking with you” kind of letter. A week or so later, my Bishop showed up to my house and literally harassed me. First he offered me a new calling (yeah like a calling is really going to get me to stay), then he played the “Outer Darkness isn’t a nice place” card, then he tried to guilt trip me by appealing to my family’s emotion, and finally he attempted to convene a disciplinary council in order to have me excommunicated rather than resign. It became so bad that still to this day I have old church buddies asking me who it is I had premarital sex with (indicative of that Bishop’s smear campaign).

I’ve known other former-LDS who received a similar letter from Salt Lake City, however their Bishop didn’t act so childish. They got a simple phone call from their Bishop making sure that the letter was actually sent by him or her and then a few days later that same Bishop would send them a confirmation letter. Very kind, very civil.

So again, I think it depends on the character of the individual Bishop. Some Bishops are respectful while others are childish.

 

[Jerusha]

I
So again, I think it depends on the character of the individual Bishop. Some Bishops are respectful while others are childish.

Although my own story has other factors, there is immense variety among LDS people. And this has a lot to do with how things will play out. Hopefully the more reasonable LDS people will take over. Otherwise, as the decent people leave, LDS could become even more conservative and ally themselves with the radical right. It will be interesting.

So many people are afraid of their power, even terrified.

 

[why_me]

Anyway, I’m not certain why exactly the LDS church does this, but requests to remove one’s name from the roles always seems to be forwarded to his/her Bishop and then he takes whatever action he personally wishes.

When I requested a name removal, the Church sent me a generic “Not our problem, the Bishop will be speaking with you” kind of letter. A week or so later, my Bishop showed up to my house and literally harassed me. First he offered me a new calling (yeah like a calling is really going to get me to stay), then he played the “Outer Darkness isn’t a nice place” card, then he tried to guilt trip me by appealing to my family’s emotion, and finally he attempted to convene a disciplinary council in order to have me excommunicated rather than resign. It became so bad that still to this day I have old church buddies asking me who it is I had premarital sex with (indicative of that Bishop’s smear campaign).

I’ve known other former-LDS who received a similar letter from Salt Lake City, however their Bishop didn’t act so childish. They got a simple phone call from their Bishop making sure that the letter was actually sent by him or her and then a few days later that same Bishop would send them a confirmation letter. Very kind, very civil.

It needs to go through the bishop to ensure that an imposter did not send the name into salt lake requesting a resignation from the church. The local church authorities can verify the request that the person who made the request is the person involved.

Most bishops just forward the name into salt lake after a verification has been made. Some may try to get the resigning member to think about the decision but…most just let the matter drop. Everyone has free agency.

 

[why_me]

.

So many people are afraid of their power, even terrified.

I doubt it. The bishop is just a guy who works for a living. He has no power. His job is to make sure that the members in his ward are okay and to make sure that things are running well inside his ward. Nothing more.

 

[why_me]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the truth that the Catholic Church teaches. It’s cult vs. culture.

May the Holy Spirit open your eyes.

The lds church is not a cult. Mormons work in the real world and have friends in and out of the lds church. As has been noted many leave the faith and many go inactive. In the end, no one is really bothered either way. We all have our free agency.

Can we call the catholic faith a cult when it is an obigation to attend church and a mortal sin not to? Do people feel forced to attend church because of soul damnation? All churches have rules but it does not necessarily make them a cult.

 

[po18guy]

The lds church is not a cult. Mormons work in the real world and have friends in and out of the lds church. As has been noted many leave the faith and many go inactive. In the end, no one is really bothered either way. We all have our free agency.

Can we call the catholic faith a cult when it is an obigation to attend church and a mortal sin not to? Do people feel forced to attend church because of soul damnation? All churches have rules but it does not necessarily make them a cult.

Your opinion confirms my diagnosis. Try to leave the LDS. Just try. Many are held emotionally captive by the threat of shunning - especially by family members. I am very sorry to offend you but, except for JS being dead, LDS has to this day, many of the hallmarks of a cult.

You are also projecting LDS traits onto the Catholic Church. That is a psychological term. It’s apropos in an organization like LDS. Attendance at mass is a discipline. If you willingly miss mass, it is a sin against God. But, you are invited back through the Sacrament of reconciliation.

Try apostatizing from the LDS and then asking to return. You are grilled as in an inquisition, to coin a phrase. This is confirmed by the testimony of former LDS members here.

I know that you love and believe the LDS organization, but, out of concern for your eternal soul, I must confront you with the truth. Truth revealed by God, not man.