Uh Emerite, I’ll admit I have alot to learn about the Catholic faith. I’m currently a Catachumen in RCIA. However, I think you maybe somewhat mistaken if your using the Catechism of the Catholic church as a law when at best its a guide. Plus, I don’t believe it was ever meant to be used as a Hadith is used with the Koran. We shouldn’t go down that road. Though, thats what you made it sound like. Please take no offense.
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Emerite
Guest
Sorry if I sounded harsh. The Catechism defines the Church’s faith and doctrine, as stated in the intro of the Catechism:
“The Catechism of the Catholic church is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine … a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. This Catechism represents a service which the Successor of Peter (Pope John Paul 23rd), ordered by virtue of his Apostolic Authority. Pope John Paul 23rd asked the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use … in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life.”
Since attending parochial school, I’ve always used the Catechism as a guide to my Roman Catholic faith. And I continue to learn more from classes, reading, and questioning a former pastor who served on Vatican II Council. May God bless you on your quest as a Catachumen.
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ElisabethM
Guest
Everything good in the Lutheran Church came from the Catholic Church. I don’t see any justification for the continuation of the Lutheran Church. I have asked about this among Lutherans I know and the only answer I’m given are the same misconceptions of the Catholic Church I grew up with.
For me the argument of unity was so compelling. Maybe it isn’t so for others.
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climer97007
Guest
You need to go down the road Christ is calling you to. And you do have a lot to learn, we all do, no matter how much we think we know.
Of course the Catechism is incomparable to a Hadith of the Koran. So what? Is this supposed to mean something? It certainly does not mean that the Catechism is not authoritative in terms of teaching.
As a Catechumen, you may have learned about tradition, and Traditition. The Catechism falls into the latter category. There are those Traditions of the church which every Catholic must give ascent. These are contained in the Catechism. This body of Tradition also includes Holy Scripture. And like the Ethiopian Eunoch recorded in Scripture who asked “Who can interpret it for me?”, speaking as he was of the Scriptures, the Catechism is just such an interpreter and teacher.
Do not so quickly deride that which is new to you. In non-Catholic circles, the interpreter of scripture is the mind of each individual. In Catholicism, ***the interpreter of faith ***is the Apostolic Tradition handed down from Christ Himself through the Apostles, and imparted by the Holy Spirit, which is documented in the Catechism, and in Holy Scripture, and whose treasure chest it’s depths draw upon.
Do you see the difference in these two faith propositions?
The non-Catholic reads scripture and is his own interpreter to attain to some kind of faith.
The Catholic learns Catholic Christian faith first, as handed down by the Apostles, and uses this faith to illuminate and to discern and then sees that One and same faith exposed in Holy Scripture.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is called upon by non-Catholics and by Catholics alike to illuminate, to discern, and to interpret, and yet, even the early church required the Apostles to settle disputes of interpretation, as each individuals education and experience even with the Holy Spirit moving them was insufficient on it’s own, even for St Paul himself.
Our Catholic faith proceeds from Christ to us through the Apostles and with that true understanding of our faith we have the potential to read and understand the Holy Scriptures. The Holy Scriptures do not stand alone in a vacuum awaiting our human estimation of its meaning. The Holy Scriptures were chosen by the Church because of their True reflection of Apostolic Tradition.
One can not arrive at the Truth based on his own human estimation. This is why there are over 35,000 non-Catholic denominations. We need the Apostles, the Bishops and our Priests. We Catholics do not do this “me and Jesus” style of modern obscurity.
Gene
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IrishEddieOHara
Guest
Truth is truth, Jon. I had to face this, as ugly as it was to me, when I stopped believing in Protestant fantasies because I had met Catholics who could defend the Faith and who challenged me to open my eyes. What I read proved that there is no way to defend the rebellion of Protestantism. Don’t you remember that God said that “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft?” Shredding the Church into thousands of pieces was not the way to handle the corruption that was infesting the Church at that time. Look at the chaos that surrounds you in the area of doctrinal and moral teaching and tell me that Luther and Calvin did a good thing.
I have been to the Novus Ordo Mass and quite frankly, I have problems with it. I am glad that God called me to the Byzantine Catholic Church. The Liturgy there is very rich, very deep, and very much in sync with the worship of the Early Church. The Novus Ordo has made structural changes to the praxis which have stripped away the symbolism which is so important in worship.
When I was considering conversion I attended a WELS service and I will admit that I was impressed with the Liturgy and the reverence. I have been to Anglican services which are more reverent and beautiful than the Novus Ordo could ever be on its best day. Vatican II may have had good intentions, but the liberals hijacked the Liturgy and the results have been, in my opinion, disastrous. I am heartened by recent changes which are popping up in the Church, such as one bishop commanding his priests to offer the Mass “ad orientum”, which is the ancient and proper pose by which it should be done. Some things change as we learn more about them, but some things are eternal and should not be changed because of the typology they represent.
Finally, let me apologize for using the word Protestantism. It is a bit too inclusive. I should have used the word Evangelicalism. Evangelicalism is the most stripped down, barren, and may I suggest, ridiculous excuse for worship I have ever seen. Lutheranism, I will admit, has a real strong presence of worship and reverence that is simply lacking in Evangelicalism, which is more like a circus or a nightclub.
I don’t think that Calvin did a good thing. I don’t think that Luther and the corrupt leadership of the Church at Luther’s time did a good thing. We live with those wounds to the Church and its ministry today because of that schism between Lutherans and Catholics. And I pray the Holy Spirit leads us back into unity.
I appreciate your apology, and accept it. Frankly, I am uncomfortable characterizing others’ style of worship. That said, I will allow evangelcials to defend their’s.
Jon
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IrishEddieOHara
Guest
I know it is hard to think of Luther as doing a bad thing, but think about this. Israel had numerous occasions when the leaders turned to idolatry and other sins, yet God never said “Go start another congregation”.
The proper response was to stay in the Church, endure the wickedness, and pray that God change things.
The damage done to the Church by the Protestant Reformation cannot even begin to be counted.
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IrishEddieOHara
Guest
Are you entering the Maronite Church? If so…welcome to the East!!
You gonna love it!!
First, it is not hard to think of Luther doing a bad thing. He was a human being. Many of his faults are right out there for us to see.
God also did not kick people out.
Any damage done to the Church by the reformation is the responsibility of the reformers and the corrupt leaders of the Church. Your catechism says so! It is also the fault and sin of Christians today - you and I included - for not doing more in prayer and dialogue to end the division and schism within His Church.
Jon
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Both sides could definitely stand to do more. I notice how many little non-denoms and other groups are now doing Ash Wednesday, are holding “confessions,” and how many do Stations of the Cross (non Anglican, Lutheran, etc.). These protestants are gravitating toward Catholic trappings whether they realize it or not. Catholics have also done more to increase Bible studies and look into lay involvement and need to embrace more Protestant-type fellowship opportunities. Both sides might not realize it but they gravitate toward one another and then pull away, then chide one another as fallen. We have an ecumenical carrying of the Cross and stations praying walking through our downtown here in Visalia between our Catholic parish, St. Mary’s and the Presbyterians and some other denominations. It seems fruitful. But we need more.
We are where we are denomination/church-wise thanks to our ancestry and history. Calvin, Luther, the popes, all these historical figures mixed in with our ancestors’ reactions to those characters’ actions and teachings landed us where we are. Now we need to sit down, study, pray, analyze, and digest what we feel to be the truth. Despite some struggles, I affirm the Catholic Church is the Church established by Peter, that sublime Rock. I struggle with a few issues within the Church, am not crazy about a lot, but hang in there.
We are where we are denomination/church-wise thanks to our ancestry and history. Calvin, Luther, the popes, all these historical figures mixed in with our ancestors’ reactions to those characters’ actions and teachings landed us where we are. Now we need to sit down, study, pray, analyze, and digest what we feel to be the truth. Despite some struggles, I affirm the Catholic Church is the Church established by Peter, that sublime Rock. I struggle with a few issues within the Church, am not crazy about a lot, but hang in there.
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12kstj51
Guest
Gurney/JonCo: I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts. Your rationality is refreshing. I pray for this stupid division to end someday and for both groups to come together as one Church. Think what we could accomplish as one group!
God Bless.
God Bless.
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Emerite
Guest
QUOTE: "Originally Posted by JonNC
First, it is not hard to think of Luther doing a bad thing. He was a human being. Many of his faults are right out there for us to see.
God also did not kick people out.
Any damage done to the Church by the reformation is the responsibility of the reformers and the corrupt leaders of the Church. Your catechism says so! It is also the fault and sin of Christians today - you and I included - for not doing more in prayer and dialogue to end the division and schism within His Church.Jon"
Martin Luther, a lawyer and later a German Monk. suggested, around 1560 A.D. using the language of the people, rather than Latin, which probably inspired the Roman Catholic Church, in the 1960’s, to adopt the language of the people at Mass, according to World Book Encyclopedia.
Luther taught that a man finds favor of God solely by God’s grace – salvation by faith alone. I agree, to the following extent: If a sinner who commits grave sins such as murder, theft, adultery, etc., and believes that he will go to heaven just because he says he “accepts” Jesus Christ as his personal savior, he is not demonstrating faith (belief/acceptance) in his God because of this disobedience to God’s Ten Commandments. So he truly, in my book, is not “accepting” Jesus Christ by his actions, which demonstrates a lack of faith. Such faith is moot. But a good Christian who accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, obeys God’s Commandments, and believes that he has chosen the right path of salvation, lacking knowledge or opportunity to become a Catholic (the original Christian Church, founded by St. Peter [See Matthew 16:17-19]), this man would be considered “saved” because of his love for Jesus Christ and Christian lifestyle, which demonstrates true faith in and acceptance of Jesus Christ.
Would JonMC tell me where in my Catholic Catechism does I say, “Any damage done to the Church by the reformation is the responsibility of the reformers and the corrupt leaders of the Church?” I’d like to look this up.
We must pray for Christian brotherhood and unity, remembering our similarities and working on our differences. Here’s a good Prayer for Evangelization by the Paulist National Catholic Evangelization Association for us:
“Loving God, you called us each by name and gave your only Son to redeem us. In your faithfulness, you sent the Holy Spirit to complete the mission of Jesus among us. Open our hearts to Jesus. Give us the courage to speak his name to those who are close to us and the generosity to share his love with those who are far away. We pray that every person throughout the world be invited to know and love Jesus as Savior and Redeemer. May they come to know his all-surpassing love. May that love transform every element of our society. We ask this through Christ, Our Lord. Amen”
First, it is not hard to think of Luther doing a bad thing. He was a human being. Many of his faults are right out there for us to see.
God also did not kick people out.
Any damage done to the Church by the reformation is the responsibility of the reformers and the corrupt leaders of the Church. Your catechism says so! It is also the fault and sin of Christians today - you and I included - for not doing more in prayer and dialogue to end the division and schism within His Church.Jon"
Martin Luther, a lawyer and later a German Monk. suggested, around 1560 A.D. using the language of the people, rather than Latin, which probably inspired the Roman Catholic Church, in the 1960’s, to adopt the language of the people at Mass, according to World Book Encyclopedia.
Luther taught that a man finds favor of God solely by God’s grace – salvation by faith alone. I agree, to the following extent: If a sinner who commits grave sins such as murder, theft, adultery, etc., and believes that he will go to heaven just because he says he “accepts” Jesus Christ as his personal savior, he is not demonstrating faith (belief/acceptance) in his God because of this disobedience to God’s Ten Commandments. So he truly, in my book, is not “accepting” Jesus Christ by his actions, which demonstrates a lack of faith. Such faith is moot. But a good Christian who accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, obeys God’s Commandments, and believes that he has chosen the right path of salvation, lacking knowledge or opportunity to become a Catholic (the original Christian Church, founded by St. Peter [See Matthew 16:17-19]), this man would be considered “saved” because of his love for Jesus Christ and Christian lifestyle, which demonstrates true faith in and acceptance of Jesus Christ.
Would JonMC tell me where in my Catholic Catechism does I say, “Any damage done to the Church by the reformation is the responsibility of the reformers and the corrupt leaders of the Church?” I’d like to look this up.
We must pray for Christian brotherhood and unity, remembering our similarities and working on our differences. Here’s a good Prayer for Evangelization by the Paulist National Catholic Evangelization Association for us:
“Loving God, you called us each by name and gave your only Son to redeem us. In your faithfulness, you sent the Holy Spirit to complete the mission of Jesus among us. Open our hearts to Jesus. Give us the courage to speak his name to those who are close to us and the generosity to share his love with those who are far away. We pray that every person throughout the world be invited to know and love Jesus as Savior and Redeemer. May they come to know his all-surpassing love. May that love transform every element of our society. We ask this through Christ, Our Lord. Amen”
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Bengoshi
Guest
Wow, very strong and spiteful words. Have you even read the books yourself for you to judge them as trash?
Anyway, to address the issue at hand, you (or the Germans you mentioned) seem to have a poor understanding of what salvation by grace through faith really means. First of all, read Eph. 2:8-10. In verse 10 it says that “we were created for good works which God has prepared in advance for us to do.” Clearly, a true Christian would do good works; but not as a means of earning salvation, rather, as proof and result of their salvation in Christ. I also know of a lot of Catholics who even more evil than atheists or satanists, so that’s not really a good argument to use against Protestantism.
Second, the mass is absolutely BORING, especially for children. Protestant/Evangelical churches segregate children in a separate service in a separate room so as to facilitate their learning and also enable the adults to concentrate on their worship and the sermon of the pastor. More often than not, God’s presence is felt more in Evangelical services than in the Catholic Mass where it is so ritualistic and mechanical.
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Bengoshi
Guest
Very well said! Your observations are quite valid!
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Carlan
Guest
Ben, if you were ever Catechized as a Catholic, it probably never did get any further than the head, never to the heart where it belongs and perhaps you as a child you were not taught the love of Jesus in the home. What makes you think your judgment of the Catholic mass is just a ritualistic and mechanical experience for all Catholics simply because that is how you feel and believe it is. Instead of blaming the Church for your unbelief, place it it in the proper place, could have been ones indifference, immaturity, or disobedience at the time.There comes a time in all our lives to take responsibility for our own actions.
God bless, and peace to you , Carlan
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CMatt25
Guest
I’m posting this here since it relates to Catholics converting. I found this 2 yr old thread in the Apologetics section of CAF and post #8 says if a Catholic formally joins another church, they are still Catholic, lapsed but still Catholic.
Do the Catholics here on this forum agree? Is it a dual citizenship type of situation?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=138254
Do the Catholics here on this forum agree? Is it a dual citizenship type of situation?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=138254
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IrishJoe
Guest
- Because its a wafer not a piece of flesh.
- It is god who forgives sins not god-channeled-through-a-priest
- The Saints are praying and some Protestants (anglicans) ask saints to pray for them
- I don’t know why you’d WANT to obey rome
- see 1 above
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IrishEddieOHara
Guest
As a matter of a fact, I have. You may not know that I am a convert and these books were like meat and potatoes to me at one time, including all their anti-Catholic rhetoric which kept me out of the Church for years.
Heresy is not fine wine, sir. It is trash, pure and simple, and what I said is considerably tame compared to the reactions of some of the Early Fathers against heresy.
You can say whatever you like, sir. The fact is that in John 5: 28 -29 and Romans 2: 5 -10, it is made quite clear that good works are the basis upon which we will be judged and either given eternal life or eternal death. Please read those verses and think about what is being said there.
Good works are part of the covenant vows we make in baptism, therefore, the doing of good works are not to “prove” to ourselves or others that we have “accepted Jesus”. They are to “keep covenant” with Jesus. If you are not familiar with covenant terms, I suggest you read the book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER by Ray Sutton. He outlines covenant principles very nicely, although he does have certain Calvinist presuppositions in the book which cause him to make erroneous statements from time to time.
Our worship is not about being entertained. You have the traditional American mindset about this. Children learn from what they see. If they see that the Liturgy is important to their parents, they will tune in. I see this quite frequently in our parish.
As for the “presence of God” – are you sure you are not mistaking emotionalism for the presence of God? I was involved for a number of years with Charismania and emotions run away with people and are called “the presence of God”
In other words – been there, done that – reject it all!!!
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IrishEddieOHara
Guest
- Jesus said “This IS my Body…” That’s all I have to know!
- You do not understand covenant principles. One of the covenant principles is that of “hierarchy,” which has to do with authority. Protestantism doesn’t understand this concept. When you don’t like the authority over you, you go start yet another “church”
- ??? Speak clear and concise English, please.
- Back to the covenant principle of authority. The Church, as does any covenant structure, has one head on earth. The keys were given to Peter to show that authority.
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Bold_Sexton
Guest
Because we have no confidence in the leadership and moral authority of Rome. My own opinion is that the Lutheran Church offers the very bet of what the Catholic Church provides and filters out the unecessary
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