Converting from Catholic to Protestant...

[IrishJoe]

1. Jesus said “This IS my Body…” That’s all I have to know!
2. You do not understand covenant principles. One of the covenant principles is that of “hierarchy,” which has to do with authority. Protestantism doesn’t understand this concept. When you don’t like the authority over you, you go start yet another “church”
3. ??? Speak clear and concise English, please.
4. Back to the covenant principle of authority. The Church, as does any covenant structure, has one head on earth. The keys were given to Peter to show that authority.

You are in error.

1. Jesus said lots of things, do you take them all literally?

2)The ‘you do not understand’ is the default answer I get when I disagree with Catholics. I have lost count the amount of times I have heard it. I find it highly condescending. What you mean is that I do not AGREE. It is possible to understand something and not agree with it.

1. I do not know how to make it any more consicse. If I expand it may help: 3) The Communion of Saints in heaven are already praying for people on Earth. In addition some Protestants, for example Anglicans do ask saints to pray for them. Prayer meaning ‘to ask’ and ‘asking a Saint to pray’ to differentiate between worship.
2. The Keys argument is based on a book which has been authorised by the orginisation it supposedly authorises. It is a circular argument.

Also stating ‘you are in error’ is merely an opinion.

 

[climer97007]

I also know of a lot of Catholics who even more evil than atheists or satanists, so that’s not really a good argument to use against Protestantism.

Second, the mass is absolutely BORING, especially for children. Protestant/Evangelical churches segregate children in a separate service in a separate room so as to facilitate their learning and also enable the adults to concentrate on their worship and the sermon of the pastor. More often than not, God’s presence is felt more in Evangelical services than in the Catholic Mass where it is so ritualistic and mechanical.

With regard to Satanists and Catholics, you simply have no idea what you are saying here. As Christ Himself prayed, Father, they know not what they are doing. May God forgive you.

When Jesus was preaching in the countryside, I suspect that for a 2 year old active child, or a 7 year old, or even a 13 year old, He may well have been boring. Boring is not the reason to keep your child from the very presence of Christ. Indeed, this is a substantial difference between Catholic Christian values, and those of non-Catholics. Jesus said “Do not keep these little ones from me”.

It may well be your common practice to keep Jesus from your children, and even from yourselves, having not the Eucharist. If you had the Eucharist, if you had Christ’s very presence in your midst, you would not be depriving your children of His presence, boring or not. It is not about how I feel or how they feel, it is all about Who He is and His desire to be with me and with my children and grand children.

Gene

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

1. Jesus said lots of things, do you take them all literally?

When He is obviously NOT teaching in parables, then it is appropriate to believe that the words mean exactly what He said they mean. But then, when His Apostles teach by their historical record that they believe Him to have been speaking literally, we know that this understanding is correct.

The ‘you do not understand’ is the default answer I get when I disagree with Catholics. I have lost count the amount of times I have heard it. I find it highly condescending. What you mean is that I do not AGREE. It is possible to understand something and not agree with it.

It is not a default answer. 95% of all Christians have never studied covenant principles in detail, therefore, they do not know how their personal beliefs violate covenant principles as found in the Bible. Ray Sutton is a Protestant Calvinist. Read his book. You can read it for free at entrewave.com/freebooks/sidefrm2.htm. And because I have read the book - nay, have studied it – I say again, you don’t understand principles which are basic to covenant.

I do not know how to make it any more consicse. If I expand it may help: 3) The Communion of Saints in heaven are already praying for people on Earth. In addition some Protestants, for example Anglicans do ask saints to pray for them. Prayer meaning ‘to ask’ and ‘asking a Saint to pray’ to differentiate between worship.

Try using more words and separating your subject matter so that one understands what you are talking about by the precision of your argument.

The Keys argument is based on a book which has been authorised by the orginisation it supposedly authorises. It is a circular argument.

It is not a circular argument and even some Protestant scholars have admitted that Peter was given an authority which was not given to the other Apostles. The writings of the Early Fathers also clarify that they understood precisely what Jesus meant when He gave the keys to Peter.

Also stating ‘you are in error’ is merely an opinion.

Not if it is obvious that you don’t understand…

Let’s prove that you don’t understand.

Give me the five operative principles of a covenant which are found in scripture.

If you cannot do this – then voila! you don’t understand, do you?

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

Because we have no confidence in the leadership and moral authority of Rome. My own opinion is that the Lutheran Church offers the very bet of what the Catholic Church provides and filters out the unecessary

That is because you fail to separate the personal sins of the person in the Chair of St. Peter from the protection of the office which comes from the oversight of that Chair by the Holy Spirit. In other words, you really don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is capable of so directing men to do what He wishes them to do and say. Yet the Bible shows Him directing the apostate high priest, Caiaphas, to make a prophesy of Jesus’ death for the people.

That’s kind of an insult to the Holy Spirit!

 

[Bill_Pick]

You are correct about Catholic teaching concerning orders. It is a disagreement we have that, as dialogue goes forward, would have to be resolved. Take note that the issue of validity is essentially one way, in that we recognize Catholic orders as valid, but you don’t recignize ours (except those Lutherans in northern Europe who have apostolic succession). While we would like and prefer Rome’s recognition of our clergy, we don’t view it as a necessity.

Interestingly,this issue is addressed in the ongoing dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics:
usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

In it, quote of note:

Cardinal Ratzinger

And the paritcipants of the dialogue:

Jon

Very good post but one thing It is not the priest that forgive sin it is Jesus that does that.

 

[CMatt25]

The ‘you do not understand’ is the default answer I get when I disagree with Catholics. I have lost count the amount of times I have heard it. I find it highly condescending. What you mean is that I do not AGREE. It is possible to understand something and not agree with it.
Also stating ‘you are in error’ is merely an opinion.

:clapping: Yes it is unfortunately and sadly a far too typical response by my Catholic brethren and sisters. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve heard it too. As a Catholic I too find it condescending.

 

[Jimmy_Reno]

As a former protestant and having spoken with former catholics who have left the church in favor of a protestant church, I can offer some insight.

Many protestant church’s are very warm and welcoming. The members make you feel wanted and a part of their community.

Many of these church’s have talented, dynamic music programs. Music draws people and touches them on an emotional level that words sometimes do not.

Many have active, close-knit youth groups. Most parents want their children in a dynamic youth group that will have them active in and excited about their faith.

While the protestant church’s do not have many of the wonderful aspects of the catholic church, there are some key componets that draw people.

 

[poetryforjesus]

Second, the mass is absolutely BORING, especially for children. Protestant/Evangelical churches segregate children in a separate service in a separate room so as to facilitate their learning and also enable the adults to concentrate on their worship and the sermon of the pastor. More often than not, God’s presence is felt more in Evangelical services than in the Catholic Mass where it is so ritualistic and mechanical.

I couldn’t disagree more on this point. The Catholic Church might be the only church where kids are able to learn reverence, docility and the ability to simply sit down and listen in the sanctuary. Have you ever paid attention to families at mass? They are able to sit together and worship the Lord together no matter how young they are, with one heart and one spirit, as a FAMILY, attentive and obedient to the whole faith community. It may seem boring to you, but surely you cannot dismiss what we and our children are able to experience interiorly when we worship the Lord together.

 

[ElisabethM]

Because we have no confidence in the leadership and moral authority of Rome. My own opinion is that the Lutheran Church offers the very bet of what the Catholic Church provides and filters out the unecessary

But you do have confidence in the leadership and moral authority of the Lutheran Church? From where does that authority derive?

What I discovered was that the Lutheran Church did not take what was best of the Catholic Church, they took a portion of an indivisible integrated whole. What the Lutheran Church is left with is a shadow of the reality and fullness that is the Catholic Church. So the Lutheran Church is not left with the best, but with only shadows.

The “in, with and under” of Lutheran communion is a shadow of the reality of Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Eucharist. The common confession of sins in the Lutheran liturgy is a very pale shadow of the Sacrament of Confession in the Catholic Church. The Lutheran worship service itself, even where it is best conducted is a shadow of the Catholic Mass.

And, of course, there doesn’t even remain a shadow in the Lutheran Church of those areas where it has completed rejected the Catholic teaching–the saints, Our Blessed Mother, purgatory–to name a few of the classics.

Wasn’t it Archbishop Fulton Sheen who said, “There aren’t 100 people in the United States who know what the Catholic Church teaches and oppose it.” I have yet to meet one.

When I grew up in the LCMS, I was taught so many misconceptions of the Catholic Church, not any real anti-Catholicism, but more along the lines of what you said, “They’re just in serious error, but we alone have the whole Biblical truth.” It wasn’t until I was in my 40s that I finally learned the truth of the Catholic Church and found there the best “Bible-believing” Church on earth.

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

:clapping: Yes it is unfortunately and sadly a far too typical response by my Catholic brethren and sisters. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve heard it too. As a Catholic I too find it condescending.

It is not condescending if the person does not understand. I posted a challenge to the poster. I’ll give it to you also.

Give me the five operational principles of a covenant as found in scripture.

If you can’t do it, then you also do not understand a covenant and how it works. That is not a condescending statement. It is a simple and plain fact, said without teeth.

And the fact of the matter is that Protestants DON’T UNDERSTAND!!!

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

Still waiting for your answer, Bengoshi!

 

[Carlan]

:clapping: Yes it is unfortunately and sadly a far too typical response by my Catholic brethren and sisters. I’ve lost count how many times I’ve heard it too. As a Catholic I too find it condescending.

Well Matt the Truth is the truth, we Catholics are here to share that and defend that Truth, sorry if you find it condescending. We defend the revelation of Christ, and when we read error we cannot condone it. It is called defending the faith. Some of us can be rude in doing so and there is no excuse for that. If i have been so, please forgive meGod bless and peace to you and our Protestant brothers. Carlan

 

[IrishJoe]

Try using more words and separating your subject matter so that one understands what you are talking about by the precision of your argument.

Making something more concise generally involves reducing it in size…

Not if it is obvious that you don’t understand…

Let’s prove that you don’t understand.

Let’s not as it seems condescending. And like I said just because I disagree doesn’t mean I don’t understand.

 

[IrishEddieOHara]

Making something more concise generally involves reducing it in size…

Let’s not as it seems condescending. And like I said just because I disagree doesn’t mean I don’t understand.

Thank you for proving my point. You don’t understand and now you try to weasel out of the fact by calling me “condescending.”

Sorry, dude, but if you are going to come to an apologetics site and strap on your holsters, you better have the ammo with which to shoot!!

 

[IrishJoe]

Thank you for proving my point. You don’t understand and now you try to weasel out of the fact by calling me “condescending.”

Sorry, dude, but if you are going to come to an apologetics site and strap on your holsters, you better have the ammo with which to shoot!!

I pointed it out BEFORE if were paying attention. Also I’m sure that unless we define it by the supposedly narrow standard set out in the book you keep raving about we’ll be ‘in error’

@Jimmy I agree, many protestant churches are more inclusive by nature without compromising their beliefs. Seeing as in Ireland and the UK children are expected to absorb church teachings from the air the RCC could do well by having ‘sunday school’ type provision. Fostering a sense of church community might help.
Also I don’t like a lot of church songs so it puts me off to be honest.

 

[iamrefreshed]

You forget, we are Protestants. Its like McDonalds. We get Jesus and a cheeseburger.

I meant the true presence in the Eucharist.

 

[iamrefreshed]

As a former protestant and having spoken with former catholics who have left the church in favor of a protestant church, I can offer some insight.

Many protestant church’s are very warm and welcoming. The members make you feel wanted and a part of their community.

Many of these church’s have talented, dynamic music programs. Music draws people and touches them on an emotional level that words sometimes do not.

Many have active, close-knit youth groups. Most parents want their children in a dynamic youth group that will have them active in and excited about their faith.

While the protestant church’s do not have many of the wonderful aspects of the catholic church, there are some key componets that draw people.

So, I give up all the Sacraments, Tradition and tradition for…a song?

Hey, I love Steven Curtis Chapman as much as anyone but listening to the Litany of the Saints is MOVING!

 

[Emerite]

Originally Posted by Bengoshi
[Second, the mass is absolutely BORING, especially for children. Protestant/Evangelical churches segregate children in a separate service in a separate room so as to facilitate their learning and also enable the adults to concentrate on their worship and the sermon of the pastor. More often than not, God’s presence is felt more in Evangelical services than in the Catholic Mass where it is so ritualistic and mechanical.]

Mass must be boring to people with closed minds, who aren’t close to God and are caught up in the materialism of the world today. This reflects the “old me as a somewhat rebellious teenager.” Now that I pay attention, participate in the Mass by helping distribute the host or the chalice, the Mass is often the highlight of my week. During the consecration, I reflect on the Last Supper when Jesus Christ offered bread and wine, saying, “This is my Body” and “This is my Blood.” Our church has an outside separate service for small children, who leave with their teachers for instruction during most of the Mass time. I feel God’s presence in the congregation and a great peace. One has to have the proper mind set. I don’t find it at all ritualistic or mechanical, when I reflect on the Sunday readings, the Gospel, say prayers and pay attention to the priest’s sermon. Guess I didn’t have the proper mind set when I attended a Pentecostal service with a friend: people were jabbering all around me unintgelligibly, the preacher kept describing a nature scene – he told me to bow my head down when he saw me looking up, and when I did so, I had to fight to not become hypnotized. Then some people marched to the front stage, and were keeling over when the preacher pressed their foreheads. I guess different strokes for different folks. Anyway, I’m super impressed with the obvious, unfeigned humility, holiness, unworldliness of priests I see, who have dedicated their lives to their Church, exactly as Christ did.

 

[Carlan]

I’m posting this here since it relates to Catholics converting. I found this 2 yr old thread in the Apologetics section of CAF and post #8 says if a Catholic formally joins another church, they are still Catholic, lapsed but still Catholic.

Do the Catholics here on this forum agree? Is it a dual citizenship type of situation?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=138254

No Matt it is not dual citizenship or unity, They are Catholics who dissent to the extent that they have given up what is the very center of our Catholic worship, the Holy Eucharist, The Body, Blood,Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ., Emmanuel with us.Would you be willing to do that??? I don’t think so! Giving up the Eucharist ? You you are still a Catholic and you will have to answer for it. There is only One Faith,The Apostolic Faith.:yup: Peace, Carlan

 

[JonNC]

=Emerite;6319798]
Luther taught that a man finds favor of God solely by God’s grace – salvation by faith alone. I agree, to the following extent: If a sinner who commits grave sins such as murder, theft, adultery, etc., and believes that he will go to heaven just because he says he “accepts” Jesus Christ as his personal savior, he is not demonstrating faith (belief/acceptance) in his God because of this disobedience to God’s Ten Commandments. So he truly, in my book, is not “accepting” Jesus Christ by his actions, which demonstrates a lack of faith. Such faith is moot. But a good Christian who accepts Jesus Christ as his savior, obeys God’s Commandments, and believes that he has chosen the right path of salvation, lacking knowledge or opportunity to become a Catholic (the original Christian Church, founded by St. Peter [See Matthew 16:17-19]), this man would be considered “saved” because of his love for Jesus Christ and Christian lifestyle, which demonstrates true faith in and acceptance of Jesus Christ.

I agree to the same extent. And in no way, shape or form does the teaching of sola fide
grant license to not do good works, or not follow the commands of Christ.

Would JonMC tell me where in my Catholic Catechism does I say, “Any damage done to the Church by the reformation is the responsibility of the reformers and the corrupt leaders of the Church?” I’d like to look this up.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#I

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269

And I agree with this statement. None of us are innocent of the ongoing separation within His one Church.

We must pray for Christian brotherhood and unity, remembering our similarities and working on our differences. Here’s a good Prayer for Evangelization by the Paulist National Catholic Evangelization Association for us:

“Loving God, you called us each by name and gave your only Son to redeem us. In your faithfulness, you sent the Holy Spirit to complete the mission of Jesus among us. Open our hearts to Jesus. Give us the courage to speak his name to those who are close to us and the generosity to share his love with those who are far away. We pray that every person throughout the world be invited to know and love Jesus as Savior and Redeemer. May they come to know his all-surpassing love. May that love transform every element of our society. We ask this through Christ, Our Lord. Amen”

Agreed, and I add my Amen to this prayer.

Jon