Converting to Islam

[Contarini]

Two posts and already a proselytizing attempt? This is so typical. Anyway, to give you the benefit of the doubt, it is possible to be a “catholic” (note: small “c”) and be a Muslim.
Pseudo-“catholics” (as some Anglicans like to call themselves “catholic”) like Rev. Ann Holmes Redding have no problem. Heck, even her bishop condones it

This is inaccurate. Rev. Redding has been suspended from priestly functions by her canonical bishop back in Rhode Island. Your statement is based on the fact that the bishop of the diocese in which Rev. Redding has been ministering had no problem with her dual affiliation. But the bishop who actually has authority over her ruled otherwise.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I am very disappointed in the replies left regarding Islam. Why is everyone anti-Islam here? That proves no one has any respect for other religions which is not Christian like. Islam is a very peaceful religion, which most of you won’t accept. I’ve been reading articles on new muslims who have just converted from their old religion. They all feel a sense of peace in their souls. If someone chooses to explore different religions, they should be able to do so without being criticized or criticizing that particular religion. Why don’t all you Islam haters read up on Islam & quit being ignorant! If you don’t have anything nice to say than don’t say it!!

First of all, there is a lot of nonsense spoken on these forums. But this is not unique to Catholics or Christians. I have not found Muslim apologists to be remarkable for their rationality or their charity. Your mileage may differ. Religious proselytizing generally is a rather nasty business.

In the second place, it’s unreasonable to ask non-Muslims to say only nice things about Islam. There are many things both nice and not so nice to be said about Islam. And, for that matter, about Christianity. If you are considering abandoning the particular baggage of Catholicism for the particular baggage of Islam, you owe it to yourself (and to Almighty God) to look seriously into the baggage you are taking on. (It is precisely because I did this with regards to Catholicism that I have not yet–after twelve years of searching–persuaded myself to convert from Protestantism to Catholicism, even though I am generally in more agreement with Catholicism than with any other form of Christianity.)

You have not given substantive reasons for believing Islam to be true. Of course converts to Islam will say that they feel a peace. Converts to any religion will say this. Why would you base such a weighty decision on such a flimsy foundation?

I see no reason whatever for thinking that Islam is true. What are your reasons for thinking that it might be?

Edwin

 

[Sepharad]

Messianic congregations do. And before you say “they’re not Jewish,” it always amazes me that one can be reformed, reconstructionist, atheist, secular, taoism, etc and still be considered a Jew: anything but accepting Christ as the Messiah.

And note, I didn’t say “Jewish,” I said Hebrew, although much of the New Testament was written by a Pharisee, St. Paul.

To answer the question whether Hebrew religion, the religion of the Old Testament, held to the existence of demons is a question which is outside the authority of later Judaism.

Of course we hold that Judaism changed after the rise of the Church, which is why St. Augustine said “We follow the Tradition of the Apostles and not the traditions of the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Scribes.” And why we give (or shouldn’t give) priority to the Talmud’s interpretation of the OT (much of which postdates the rise of the Church, the references in the Talmud to the “Deuterocanonicals,” rejected later by Judaism by kept by the Church, a case in point).

I’d be curious to know how you feel about Karaite Judaism…they do not adhere to the Talmud at all, and are not in any way descended from Pharisees…yet they too reject Jesus as a messiah. Evidently then, the reason why no Jews accept Jesus is not really rooted in the Talmud.

And you are right that I would respond that “messianics” are not truly Jews by religion…just as you would certainly not regard Monophysites, or Jehovah Witnesses, or certain other groups as truly Christians.

Right?

And if you want to know why a person can still be regarded as a Jew even if they do not practice, as long as they do not convert to another religion, you may start a new thread for asking that. There is a very important theological reason for this which Christians always fail to understand.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I’d be curious to know how you feel about Karaite Judaism…they do not adhere to the Talmud at all, and are not in any way descended from Pharisees…yet they too reject Jesus as a messiah. Evidently then, the reason why no Jews accept Jesus is not really rooted in the Talmud.

Actually the Karaites are descended from the Pharisees: just because you reject your fathers doesn’t nullify your descent. The Conservative, Reformed and even Reconstructionist (and yes, the Jews for Jesus folks) share that origin, no matter what they have done with/reacted to, etc. it.

The “Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” can reorganize itself as the" Community of Christ" but it’s still all Mormon.

As the Talmud includes explicit denials and condemnations of Christ and the Christians, yes, it’s there. The Talmud makes certain choices opposed to the choices the Apostles made.

And you are right that I would respond that “messianics” are not truly Jews by religion…just as you would certainly not regard Monophysites, or Jehovah Witnesses, or certain other groups as truly Christians.

Right?

I don’t accept those under the Vatican as 100% true Christians either, although I accept the baptism of those who embrace Orthodoxy and acknowledge (in the sense I prostrate at adoration, if I happen to come across it) the Real Presence of their Eucharist (that’s just a private theologoumen). Monophysites, ditto, but if you mean the Miaphysites, then no, I accept then as truly Christian in the true sense of the word. JWs don’t even have a baptism that by any stretch of the imagination could be accepted as valid, or more than mere water.

The problems I have with the “messianics” has to do with their Protestant theology. The large number of Jews/Hebrews who have embraced Orthodoxy (Christianity, that is) in the Holy Land, I have no problems with.

And if you want to know why a person can still be regarded as a Jew even if they do not practice, as long as they do not convert to another religion, you may start a new thread for asking that. There is a very important theological reason for this which Christians always fail to understand.

I’m always amazed how, when Jews find out that my mother’s mother’s family was Jewish, they immediately state, “Oh, so you are really a Jew,” although we’ve been baptized in that line for at least 5 generations.

 

[cathopologist]

This is inaccurate. Rev. Redding has been suspended from priestly functions by her canonical bishop back in Rhode Island. Your statement is based on the fact that the bishop of the diocese in which Rev. Redding has been ministering had no problem with her dual affiliation. But the bishop who actually has authority over her ruled otherwise.

Edwin

Errm, i think you missed out on what i posted after the initial post:
[ had no problems supporting the consecration of gay bishop (Gene Robinson). Women!

Anyway, i hope you get your answers, Tahirah.

Update: Too bad. It seems like another bishop forced Rev. Ann Holmes Redding on a 12 month leave for the first time in her 23 year career as a priestess

the bishop who imposed the leave](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=256748)
Its always wise to double check, you know.

 

[Sepharad]

Actually the Karaites are descended from the Pharisees: just because you reject your fathers doesn’t nullify your descent. The Conservative, Reformed and even Reconstructionist (and yes, the Jews for Jesus folks) share that origin, no matter what they have done with/reacted to, etc. it.

The “Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” can reorganize itself as the" Community of Christ" but it’s still all Mormon.

As the Talmud includes explicit denials and condemnations of Christ and the Christians, yes, it’s there. The Talmud makes certain choices opposed to the choices the Apostles made.

I don’t accept those under the Vatican as 100% true Christians either, although I accept the baptism of those who embrace Orthodoxy and acknowledge (in the sense I prostrate at adoration, if I happen to come across it) the Real Presence of their Eucharist (that’s just a private theologoumen). Monophysites, ditto, but if you mean the Miaphysites, then no, I accept then as truly Christian in the true sense of the word. JWs don’t even have a baptism that by any stretch of the imagination could be accepted as valid, or more than mere water.

The problems I have with the “messianics” has to do with their Protestant theology. The large number of Jews/Hebrews who have embraced Orthodoxy (Christianity, that is) in the Holy Land, I have no problems with.

I’m always amazed how, when Jews find out that my mother’s mother’s family was Jewish, they immediately state, “Oh, so you are really a Jew,” although we’ve been baptized in that line for at least 5 generations.

What they meant was, If you wanted to be Jewish, it would not be as hard for you as for a person of full Gentile origin.

If you expect me and other Jews to accept “messianics” as Jews, then I’m sure you won’t mind if I accept Jehovah’s Witnesses, Monophysites, Moonies and many others as Christians. After all, they claim to believe in Jesus, even though most Christians would not see them as Christians.

 

[cathopologist]

Thank you for that. Seems like you are the only sane person on these forums!!

Umm, ok. You’re welcome.
But, listen very carefully to what Catholics here have to say about Islam. Just remember that we do not hate Muslims (as people), but vehemently disagree with the lifestyle, doctrines and theology it (Islam) teaches. We do not necessarily hate Islam’s founder (Mohammad) either. But we seriously do not condone his “revelations”, teachings, lifestyle and sometimes cruel intentions.

Proselytizing does not work. It never worked for me either. Many have tried (Presbyterians, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Muslims, Buddhists, even the Atheists, etc). But ultimately i converted to Catholicism. I let the Holy Spirit guide me and you should do the same also. Prior to my conversion, i studied other religions. I stepped into many places of worship just to experience a piece of “heaven”. It wasn’t until i stepped into the Church, that i truly felt the peace i was longing for a very long time. Learning about other religions is not wrong. But take religion seriously. Your life and soul depends on it.

Religion is not meant to be “adopted” and then abandoned because you think the other side is greener. If you feel Catholicism is not giving you the answers you need, then maybe its time to reflect upon yourself and ask yourself “Why”?

Don’t let us (forumers) make you decide. This is really your choice. But i hope at least, (if you think of converting to Islam), you seek the advice of your favourite parish priest and then pray if what you are about to do is the right thing.

God Bless.

 

[exoflare]

You might enjoy this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255031

 

[Isa_Almisry]

What they meant was, If you wanted to be Jewish, it would not be as hard for you as for a person of full Gentile origin.

No, their insistence was that I AM Jewish (“A pearl in the mud is still a pearl”).

If you expect me and other Jews to accept “messianics” as Jews, then I’m sure you won’t mind if I accept Jehovah’s Witnesses, Monophysites, Moonies and many others as Christians. After all, they claim to believe in Jesus, even though most Christians would not see them as Christians.

Being outside the Church, it doesn’t matter to me at all your opinions on the matter (the Monophysites, whatever stripe you are talking about, are Christians). I would expect a consistent explanation of how atheist, taoist, etc. Jews are still Jews but Messianics aren’t.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’ve been Catholic for 17 years & recently became interested in Islam. I have 2 questions:

Hi Tahirah! I am a convert to islam of some years now, so I’d like to just briefly answer your question from the Muslim perspective, if that’s okay. I don’t know the stance of the Catholic Church on these issues, however.

1. Would it be wrong to practice Islam & pray the Azan 5 times daily if I am Catholic?

Wa alaikum as-salaam Tahirah. I hope my answers were helpful to you or anyone else reading this thread. Take care!

 

[inJESUS]

Guide us to the straight path
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked anger or of those who are astray.

Thank you Amy.

The highlighted part, Tahira, means Christians. You cannot be a Catholic and pray the Fatiha and you cannot be Muslim and not pray the Fatiha

 

[Sepharad]

No, their insistence was that I AM Jewish (“A pearl in the mud is still a pearl”).

Being outside the Church, it doesn’t matter to me at all your opinions on the matter (the Monophysites, whatever stripe you are talking about, are Christians). I would expect a consistent explanation of how atheist, taoist, etc. Jews are still Jews but Messianics aren’t.

First of all, I never said Taoist Jews are still Jews religiously. They are just as out of it, religiously, as Jews who become Christians, Buddhists, or anything else.

I’ll try to explain this: in traditional Jewish belief, there are three things a Jew must NEVER do…in fact he is to be willing to face death rather than do these things. One of these things is to become an idolater (which in modern times, means joining any religion that worships anyone other than Hashem, the One God of the Jews.)

A Jew who does not believe in God, or who is simply not religious, while not in the ideal state by any means, at least is not ACTIVELY worshipping some other god. This is called avodah zarah, idolatry…one of the sins a Jew is supposed to face death rather than commit willingly.

A Jew who converts to Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc, IS ACTIVELY worshipping another god.

Jews are warned, repeatedly, numerous times, in the Torah, NOT to turn after other gods, even if a friend entices them, even if a family member entices them, no matter who entices them, they are not to turn after other gods, but only serve the One God of Israel.

Now I realize Christians like to think that the god they worship (Jesus) is somehow the same as Hashem (chas ve’sholom). But to Jews, he is not. This is why the worship of him is in the same boat (in our eyes) as the worship of any other non-Jewish deity.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

First of all, I never said Taoist Jews are still Jews religiously. They are just as out of it, religiously, as Jews who become Christians, Buddhists, or anything else.

I’ll try to explain this: in traditional Jewish belief, there are three things a Jew must NEVER do…in fact he is to be willing to face death rather than do these things. One of these things is to become an idolater (which in modern times, means joining any religion that worships anyone other than Hashem, the One God of the Jews.)

A Jew who does not believe in God, or who is simply not religious, while not in the ideal state by any means, at least is not ACTIVELY worshipping some other god. This is called avodah zarah, idolatry…one of the sins a Jew is supposed to face death rather than commit willingly.

A Jew who converts to Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc, IS ACTIVELY worshipping another god.

Jews are warned, repeatedly, numerous times, in the Torah, NOT to turn after other gods, even if a friend entices them, even if a family member entices them, no matter who entices them, they are not to turn after other gods, but only serve the One God of Israel.

Now I realize Christians like to think that the god they worship (Jesus) is somehow the same as Hashem (chas ve’sholom). But to Jews, he is not. This is why the worship of him is in the same boat (in our eyes) as the worship of any other non-Jewish deity.

I had a Jewish Taoist roommate. He claimed to be Jewish, and was so seen by other, more conventional Jews. The atheist Jews are the ones that always puzzle me.

I’m aware of the Jewish equation of Christianity with idolatry, though I fail to see where the denial of God falls in line.

Sparks has an interesting arguement of how the majority of Hebrews joined the Church, the Jews being only a minority. As the Jews would have neither numerical nor historical priority, well, what the Talmud says about Christianity and who is a Jew (or better, a son of Abraham) is somewhat moot a point.

As it says in the Cross in the halo around Christ’s head “I AM.”

 

[Sepharad]

I had a Jewish Taoist roommate. He claimed to be Jewish, and was so seen by other, more conventional Jews. The atheist Jews are the ones that always puzzle me.

I’m aware of the Jewish equation of Christianity with idolatry, though I fail to see where the denial of God falls in line.

In reading this, I’m reminded of one woman I worked with, who was returning to Judaism. She had become a Christian (“messianic Jew”), but told me she had never gotten baptized. I was puzzled as to why this was, and she said it was out of respect for the feelings of her parents, because they would have seen that as a formal renunciation of her Jewish faith.

I should have also mentioned that Judaism is a religion of doing, even more sometimes than of believing. This is how the woman I just mentioned could believe in Jesus, yet not want to be baptized–because she saw the outward, public act of baptism as a definite symbol of rejection of her Jewishness, whereas a belief is something that can be held privately.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thank you Amy.

The highlighted part, Tahira, means Christians. You cannot be a Catholic and pray the Fatiha and you cannot be Muslim and not pray the Fatiha

Sure, some of the mufassireen do favor that interpretation sure, but it doesn’t say Christians, does it? It says those who are astray which is much more broad. Even Muslims can be ‘astray’ (and some are!)

 

[exoflare]

It is a broad designation, but included in it would be every single Christian (among others of course).

 

[cathopologist]

Also Tahirah, reading the conversations in these threads will help you gain on how Catholics view Islam. Of course, to be fair, you must also take the Muslim view into consideration:

Questions About Islam

Was Mohammad without sin like Jesus? If not, how can Muslims claim he is greater than Jesus?

Hope this helps.

 

[Sam_777]

inJESUS;3984370:

Sister Amy;3984286:

Guide us to the straight path
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked anger or of those who are astray

.Thank you Amy.

The highlighted part, Tahira, means Christians. You cannot be a Catholic and pray the Fatiha and you cannot be Muslim and not pray the Fatiha Sure, some of the mufassireen do favor that interpretation sure, but it doesn’t say Christians, does it?

Are you better than the Islamic authentic mufassireen …

English:-

1. Tafsir al-Jalalayn:
   “…of those against whom there is wrath, namely, the Jews, and nor of those who are astray, namely, the Christians.”
2. Tafsir Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas:
   “(Not of those who earn Thine anger), not the religion of the Jews who earned Your anger, whom You forsook and whose hearts You did not protect until they became complaisant. (Nor of those who go astray), nor the religion of the Christians who erred from Islam.”

Arabic:

1. Tafsir Ibn Katheir:
   
   سألت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عن قوله تعالى " غير المغضوب عليهم " قال " هم اليهود " " ولا الضالين " قال : " النصارى هم الضالون "
   ​
2. Tafsir al-Jalalayn:
   
   . “غير المغضوب عليهم” وهم اليهود “ولا” وغير “الضالين” وهم النصارى
   ​
3. Tafsir Altabari:
   
   فقال : من هؤلاء الذين تحاصر يا رسول الله ؟ قال : " هؤلاء المغضوب عليهم : اليهود
   قَالَ : سَأَلْت النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ عَنْ قَوْل اللَّه { وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ } قَالَ : " النَّصَارَى هُمْ الضَّالُّونَ
   ​
4. Tafsir Alkurtubi:
   
   فالجمهور أن المغضوب عليهم اليهود , والضالين النصارى
   ​

And that’s exactly what is being taught in our Saudi education system :
iu.edu.sa/edu/syukbah/taf4_4.htm

 

[Sam_777]

Fellow Christians, pray for our sister “ZuzuBailey”, I think she is facing a very tough times, read the following and connect the dots…

On March 26, 2008:

I converted to Islam for about 6 years; then started looking back at it again (but recently squashed that).
Then i felt a pull back to church; Islam was not all it seem.
(but what religion is) I feel more at “home” in the church.

YES Islam seems like a good idea and it seems very simple and you are like “gee why didn’t I Of think of that”, but its more complicated than that.
It contradicts EVERYTHING Christ lived and stood for.
I am not saying the church is perfect either; but Islam is FAR from the church. You need to do LOTS of reading about this!

On May 15, 2008:

My husband (who is a Pakistani Muslim)

On July 18, 2008:

Why should one believe the Quran?
Their is no proof it is a reliable historical or biblical tool.
Nor is there proof muhammad was a vessil of God.

On July 22, 2008:

Yes; the truth being muhammad is a false prophet.

On July 28, 2008:

This will be my last post on this forum.
To the OP.
I have been looking back into Islam.
I dont feel at home in a catholic church. I feel it looks good; but it just doesnt feel right. The church is not as perfect as everyone makes it out to be. The church is just as “dirty” as Islam ;Neither have a clean past. So dont get that impression from these people .

.I feel more of a gnostic; but I lean more toward Islam.

 

[dzheremi]

Make no mistake, OP, you absolutely cannot be any sort of Christian while embracing the Muslim faith.

In my mind the theological differences do not weigh heavily because I have firm faith in my religion and its correctness (and thus, of course, in Islam’s falsehood). Muslims, no doubt, believe just the same about their faith vis-a-vis other faiths.

It would seem, then, that Islam might be able to rest comfortably knowing that it is revealed by Allah to be the one true religion. Yet it does not seem to be so. Even criticism of Islam in Dar al-Harb is somehow a threat to it. I will be the first to admit that some of this criticism is entirely vile and does nothing to help anyone of any religion, but things like the responses given to the OP at the start of this thread seem mostly like honest answers and not at all deserving of the reply that we ought to “stop being so ignorant” or whatever nonsense. Sometimes, like it or not, a strong reaction for/against something comes from having studied it!

It seems to be an issue for Islam, this “respect” problem (never having enough of it, even, or perhaps especially, from non-Muslims). I have admittedly not read the entire Qur’an, so I cannot say exactly what it says regarding Islam’s view of its status within the world, but I can say that the Bible states very clearly what Christians are to expect from the non-believers of the world: “It is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God” (Acts 14:22), “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted” (2 Timothy 3:12), et cetera.

Perhaps a difference in their views of themselves can account for the difference in reactions to criticism, but even when/if this difference is accounted for, it still bothers me.

It bothers me because I have been told by Muslims that Islam a religion that carries with it a political system that governs every aspect of life for the believer, and looking at most Islamic countries that appears to be a truthful claim. Fair enough for those who believe, but then don’t tell the rest of us who would be severely oppressed under such a system of governance (oh, I’m one of the “people of the book”? Great! Ohhhh…it’s a book you believe is corrupted and wrong? Well, nevermind…that doesn’t sound so great after all!) that we ought not to raise valid criticisms and concerns of it!

Therein lies a major issue that I don’t think gets discussed nearly enough: Islam as a POLITICAL SYSTEM (not a religion, not a set of beliefs about who or what is God, “good” morality, etc) sees the world as divided between believers and non-believers, with all non-believers inherently inferior and so to be denied rights, forced to pay special religious taxes, etc. Frankly, to me this seems perfectly in keeping with Islam’s need to be “respected” to a degree entirely out of proportion with the “protection” non-Muslims are SUPPOSED to be granted under its governance (just like how well-meaning Muslims will try to assure non-believers that in “true” Islam there is to be no compulsion in religion…yeah…I guess every single story in reports like this one is made up, then?).

I don’t know. The whole thing is very strange to me. Jesus said “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s”, but it seems like God in Islam often acts like Caesar. Why anyone would want to buttress that with their soul, I can’t fathom. Individual Muslims aside, Islam seems to be in an eternally offensive mode which may have been completely compatible with Mohammed’s Arabia, but today makes it seem very unpalatable to the majority of non-Muslims. That OP might be among the malleable minority does nothing to change the theological or philosophical trajectories of either faith, so if OP feels compelled to leave her faith for Islam, I can only say best of luck. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.