Converts to Catholicsm -- Did you assent to anything you didn't fully believe in?

[Tommy999]

There are three issues here: Mary’s titles, her place in the economy of salvation, and the veneration due to her as the Mother of the Lord.

All Mary’s approved titles were given to her not primarily to give her praise or recognition, although it’s fine that they do that, but to tell us things about her Son, Our Lord. Her titles support the Church’s teachings about him.

The title Queen of Heaven is not a doctrine of the Church, so we are free to use it or not, but it does not violate any of the teachings of Christ. This Marian title reminds us that we shall reign with Christ, as St. Paul wrote:

2Tim2[11] The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him;
[12a] if we endure, we shall also reign with him.

Mary is reigning with Christ, as are the saints in heaven–because this is one of the promises of Christ to his faithful. Mary, being the Mother of Christ and the most faithful believer is honored as the greatest of the saints.

The title “Mother of God” is official Church teaching and with good reason. In 431 AD a Church Council was held at Ephesus to discuss various matters. One of them was to define, once and for all, Christ’s nature. Nestorius and 16 other bishops held that Jesus was not truly God and man at his conception in Mary’s womb but that divinity was conferred on him sometime afterwards. The Council decided that this idea was heretical, declaring that Mary was the Mother of God, Theotokos=Godbearer. That Jesus has two natures in a hypostatic union making him truly God and truly man, as we recite in the Creeds.

Mary wasn’t merely a vessel into which Christ was poured like water into a pitcher. She was his true mother, the mother of the whole person of Christ not just of his humanity. She who was created by God bore her Creator into the world. This is a great mystery of our faith, as mysterious as the Christ’s redemptive act of dying gives us life. It was God condescending to save us through the flesh of the Second Adam–it’s the very essense of the Incarnation.

Mary is the Second Eve who by her fiat, her yes to God, ushered in the age of grace through her obedience just as Eve ushered in the age of sin through her disobedience. We honor her as our spiritual mother, our sister in the faith, our example of perfect discipleship, our heavenly queen, our intercessor with God. For these reasons she is given “hyperdulia” or “exalted veneration,” whereas the saints are given “dulia,” veneration. Only God receives “latria” or adoration. Adoration/worship requires sacrifice on our part. No Catholic offers Mary sacrifices for sin, but rather we offer the one sacrifice of Christ, re-presented in the Eucharist to God the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit. God never said we cannot give people due praise for their faithfulness–he himself exalts the faithful, after all. And he is not jealous of the love we give each other in Christ because that love comes from him and is directed back to him. Mary’s whole desire is to bring us to her Son, to love us as her children, and to see us in heaven with her and the saints where we will all enjoy the Beautific Vision of the Blessed Trinity.

Thanks for expounding on Mary, Della. I think I am grasping the concepts better now but it is still very foreign for me to do, if you know what I mean, although I have much respect and honor for the mother of our Lord and for her obedience and holiness.

Maybe it will come with time. I am open to that, because I do not want to hinder what God wants to do in my life.

 

[Della]

Thanks for expounding on Mary, Della. I think I am grasping the concepts better now but it is still very foreign for me to do, if you know what I mean, although I have much respect and honor for the mother of our Lord and for her obedience and holiness.

It was foreign to me too–in fact, Mary was downright scary to me at one time. I too could honor her for her yes to God, but I so feared idolatry that I came close to hating the very sound of her name. I think many outside the Church mistake Catholic veneration for worship because the Catholic definition of worship is not defined as praying to someone or giving them praise–as so many Protestants think. Also, Protestants are not used to thinking in terms of the corporate unity of the Body of Christ, but rather have a more individualistic sensibility, even while calling each other brother and sister. Mary is part of the Church, not a substitute for Christ.

Maybe it will come with time. I am open to that, because I do not want to hinder what God wants to do in my life.

Yes, accepting the Church’s Marian teachings means a sea change in perceptions, and embracing what we once thought was forbidden. Knowing Mary’s true place in our salvation helps, but what can be accepted mentally/theologically/reasonably often needs time to be accepted emotionally and psychologically.

 

[Tommy999]

God isn’t a vending machine. God is love. God’s Kingdom is a family, and all of the Saints (including you) are members of His family. Speaking with God (prayer) is not about “getting something” - it’s about building a relationship with Him.

When you go to your father’s house for Christmas, you get to speak directly with your father - but is that all you do, exclusively? Do you not also speak with your mother, and your sisters and brothers, and your nieces and nephews, and even with the wife and children who came with you?

That’s how it is with us. We speak to the Saints because we love them; not because (or not solely because) of what we can get them to do for us.

When we pray, it’s a bit like being on the phone with your Father’s house - you want to speak with your Father, of course - but why not speak with other members of the family, too, while you happen to be on the line? And when we get to Heaven, we will be worshiping and adoring God with all the Saints together in one place, and we will be as much with them as we are with God.

I know lots of Catholics who have had similar experiences, and who hope that everyone gets to have at least one, at some point in their lives.

We can’t actually know what happens to specific individuals when they die, and without knowing exactly what they were thinking of at the time they committed sin, we can’t predict what might happen to them.

We can hope that everyone would at least repent in their hearts after realizing they had committed a sin, and if the sin was mortal, we hope they would make a Perfect Act of Contrition.

I also know from personal experience that even if you are convinced you’re dying, you still might not be motivated to seek forgiveness for your sins, simply because you are in an altered state of consciousness that makes it impossible for you to think straight.

Therefore, pray for the dead, and look to yourself, that you avoid sin and avoid being in a state of mortal sin for any longer than necessary; keep short accounts with the Lord, and become known to a good Confessor. It’s also a good idea to keep a card in your wallet that says, “I am a Catholic. If I am unconscious or in danger of death, please call a priest.”

You’re not so bad yourself.

I like the way you explain things, jmcrae. That was very understandable and helpful in better understanding things in a non-threatening way. I can tell you have spent time explaining Catholic doctrines before to non-Catholics. Thanks a bunch!
.

 

[Bookcat]

Your welcome.

"Not without reason, Christians in the early centuries were required to learn the creed from memory. It served them as a daily prayer not to forget the commitment they had undertaken in baptism. With words rich in meaning, Saint Augustine speaks of this in a homily on the* redditio symboli,* the handing over of the creed: “the symbol of the holy mystery that you have all received together and that today you have recited one by one, are the words on which the faith of Mother Church is firmly built above the stable foundation that is Christ the Lord. You have received it and recited it, but in your minds and hearts you must keep it ever present, you must repeat it in your beds, recall it in the public squares and not forget it during meals: even when your body is asleep, you must watch over it with your hearts.”[16]

At this point I would like to sketch a path intended to help us understand more profoundly not only the content of the faith, but also the act by which we choose to entrust ourselves fully to God, in complete freedom. In fact, there exists a profound unity between the act by which we believe and the content to which we give our assent. Saint Paul helps us to enter into this reality when he writes: “Man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved” (Rom 10:10). The heart indicates that the first act by which one comes to faith is God’s gift and the action of grace which acts and transforms the person deep within.

The example of Lydia is particularly eloquent in this regard. Saint Luke recounts that, while he was at Philippi, Paul went on the Sabbath to proclaim the Gospel to some women; among them was Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14). There is an important meaning contained within this expression. Saint Luke teaches that knowing the content to be believed is not sufficient unless the heart, the authentic sacred space within the person, is opened by grace that allows the eyes to see below the surface and to understand that what has been proclaimed is the word of God.

Confessing with the lips indicates in turn that faith implies public testimony and commitment. A Christian may never think of belief as a private act. Faith is choosing to stand with the Lord so as to live with him. This “standing with him” points towards an understanding of the reasons for believing. Faith, precisely because it is a free act, also demands social responsibility for what one believes. The Church on the day of Pentecost demonstrates with utter clarity this public dimension of believing and proclaiming one’s faith fearlessly to every person. It is the gift of the Holy Spirit that makes us fit for mission and strengthens our witness, making it frank and courageous.

Profession of faith is an act both personal and communitarian…"

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei

“Evidently, knowledge of the content of faith is essential for giving one’s own assent, that is to say for adhering fully with intellect and will to what the Church proposes. Knowledge of faith opens a door into the fullness of the saving mystery revealed by God. *The giving of assent implies that, when we believe, we freely accept the whole mystery of faith, **because the guarantor of its truth is God who reveals himself and allows us to know his mystery of love.”
*

~ Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei (emp. added)

 

[Bookcat]

Also See The Catechism on Characteristics of Faith: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm#153

 

[pablope]

pablope;12704053:

Hi Pablope,
Thanks for the links. You always seem to be there to help when I need assistance in overcoming an obstacle in my faith journey.

You are welcome Tommy…

You know…sometimes…it is a matter of taking the dive…and giving one’s full trust in Divine Providence…but I know you are not there yet…i keep praying for you…that you find the truth you are looking for…

 

[SoMissCatholic]

If I understand correctly, Catholics do not consider Mary as divine nor do they worship her in the ‘adoration’ sense of the word, correct? If that is the case, I feel more comfortable and can accept and believe that. I have always believed she is worthy of deep respect and honor as the mother of Christ and that some of my fellow protestants don’t pay enough attention to her.

Yes, that is correct. While Mary is worthy of our honor and respect, she is still a created being, infinitely below the all-holy, perfect Triune God. As Della explained in a post above, a lot of times the confusion comes in regarding the different types of honor that are found in Catholic theology that do not, at least as far as I am aware, appear in Protestant denominations. As this CA tract explains it:

(I)n the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word “worship.” Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word “worship” by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Also, I think you may find this youtube video about Mary and scripture edifying. I think it does an excellent job of covering some deep theological concepts in a brief, easy to understand manner.

Praying to saints and Mary:

1. I still cannot fully comprehend why Catholics want to pray to Mary and the saints when they can pray right to God through Christ, although I hope to be able to understand it better some day.

I understand that the saints and Mary are intercessors who pray to the Lord for us and the prayers of the righteous availeth much according to James 5:16, but praying to them (to me at this stage of my journey) is like purposely going traveling from LA to New York by plane and insisting on stopping and changing planes in Denver and Chicago (praying to Mary and saints) when you have a direct flight (direct prayer to God thru Christ) at your disposal if you so choose.

First, as I’m sure you know, Catholics do pray directly to God through Christ. Indeed, this is almost exclusively the form of prayer that is used in the mass, which is the pinnacle of Catholic worship. However, even outside of the mass, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a Catholic who only prayed to the saints, to the exclusion of prayer directly to God. So, as jmcrae did a good job of explaining, I think it better to think in terms of Catholics pray to saints in addition to prayer directly to God and not as prayer to saints instead of prayer directly to God.

For example, a while back when I was very unhappy at my previous job and asking God for guidance as to what I should do, I also asked Mary, St. Joseph the Worker, St. Josemaria Escriva (founder of Opus Dei, which focuses on serving God through daily work), and St. Jude. So while I did go directly to God, I also asked some of the members of Christ’s Body who already see Him face to face to pray for me as well. Continuing your flight analogy, to me, prayer to the saints for intercession isn’t like taking a detour through other cities when I could have a direct flight, but rather, it’s like switching out the turbo-prop puddle jumper (my prayer alone) that was going to be used for the flight and replacing it with a Concorde super-sonic jet (my prayer joined with those of the saints).

Another reason people sometimes pray to saints is because a particular saint may have had life experiences that the person praying can relate to. For example, we’re moving to a new city for my job in about a month or so. We’re also expecting our second child at the beginning of April. Understandably, my wife is a bit stressed out with us having to move while she is very, very pregnant and of having a new baby in an unfamiliar locale. I encouraged her to pray about it to God, but also to ask the Blessed Virgin Mary for her prayers because she knew the stresses of having to move to a new, unfamiliar area with a new child when the Holy Family had to flee to Egypt to protect the infant Jesus from Herod’s slaughter of the innocents. Our Blessed Mother knows the stresses my wife is feeling right now because she felt them herself. Therefore, she knows exactly what to ask of her Son to help my wife in this process.

(cont’d below)

 

[SoMissCatholic]

(continued from above)

1. *Salvation question *
   I invited Christ into my life by faith when I was in my late teens while watching a Billy Graham crusade and sincerely repenting of my sins. I asked Christ into my life to be my Lord and Savior and I meant it with all my heart.

. . .

Question 1:
Does Catholicism celebrate this kind of experience as valid or toss it out as evangelical jibber-jabber?

Absolutely, Catholicism would view this as a valid encounter with Christ and celebrates the truth wherever it may be found, whether it be within or outside of the visible confines of the Catholic Church. Catholic teaching holds that the “born again” part does not happen until baptism, but that doesn’t preclude someone from having a valid spiritual conversion of heart prior to that time. Indeed, such would seem to me to be necessary before baptism in those who are not baptized before the age of reason, or else there would not be anything to lead them to request baptism in the first place.

Question 2:
I find it difficult to fathom how a Catholic who lived a good Christian life would be banished to hell if he happened to commit a mortal sin but died in a car accident before he was able to go to confession and get the sin absolved. Is that what Catholicism teaches would happen to that person?

Not necessarily. If the person had made what we call an “act of perfect contrition,” then he would be forgiven of his mortal sin despite the fact that he had not been able to make it to confession yet at the time he died. An act of perfect contrition simply means that we repent of our sins out of love for God and having offended Him rather than for some other reason, such as repenting only out of fear of going to Hell.

I would like to think that God would have mercy and weigh the person’s whole life and not decide the person’s eternal destiny on the last thing the person did, which seems to be a harsh way to judge someone’s life. Please clarify this for me, if you don’t mind. Perhaps I am misunderstand something.

God absolutely could do that. This is because God is not bound by the sacraments and rules He gives us to follow, but we are. God can choose any method he wants to bring someone to salvation; however, the only way that we know for sure to be saved is to do what God has revealed to us through scripture and his Church–that is, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, and when we fall, go to sacramental confession and receive absolution. If one commits a mortal sin and dies before going to confession, it is still possible that that person could be saved, as we are not aware what special graces and merits God may apply to any individual. On the other hand, neither can we assume that the person absolutely will be saved, as that would lead to the sin of presumption.

I struggled with this question myself for a long time, but we must always remember, as I’m sure you do, that no one is owed salvation. Even if I spent my entire life in service to God, but my last act before I died was my willingly and voluntarily doing something that I knew to be gravely contrary to God’s law, can I really be upset if God decides on the basis of that not to grant me what was a gratuitous gift in the first place? At the same time though, we also have to remember that God is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. I don’t think God would arbitrarily decide to condemn someone, regardless of what was on that person’s heart, simply because a rule He prescribed was not followed, as such an action would offend against mercy (at least IMO). I can be confident that His judgment will be in accord with his mercy and justice; however, I can’t know for certain this side of heaven what that judgment will be. What I can do, though, is do my best to follow the path of salvation that He has revealed, faithfully receive the sacraments to obtain the graces necessary to help me on that journey, ask Him regularly to have mercy on me, a sinner, and trust in His promise that he who endures to the end will be saved.

I appreciate all the replies and the help you’ve give me. You are all right in my book.

No problem, and ditto!

 

[Tommy999]

Thank you very much, SoMissCatholic. You explain the faith in a very reasonable and understandable way that I could relate to. In other words, I think the concept is finally registering with me and sinking in.

By the way, I hope and pray the move to the new city will go well and that it won’t be traumatic for anyone, especially your wife. I can imagine the timing could potentially be challenging, but like you said, Mary can relate to her.