Convincing a 99% atheist

[JoeFreedom]

A good friend of mine, (let’s call him James), who I also work with, is an atheist. He is also a really good guy. He is also very open to others’ opinions and ideas. I find this refreshing because so many people just shut out conversation when someone has a differing opinion.

About a month ago, James and I made plans to go hang out, check out some foodie places around his area and maybe grab a micro-brew. Well I got sick and couldn’t make it so we rescheduled for a couple of weeks later. Prior to all of this one day at work, a few of us got into an impromptu conversation about religion. The topic of Christians came up and somehow someone said something that made me reply that a lot of Christians give real followers of Jesus a bad name, because they do not act like Christians, so on and so forth (if you get my point). He replied how right I was and that it made a lot of sense to him. The basic point I’m trying to articulate here is that during the conversation I realized that he could/would be open to listening to me talk about Jesus, primarily because what I had just said, he had never realized. So maybe I could plant some “conversational seeds” in his brain that would one day take root.

Sidetracking some here… my faith in Jesus has been growing exponentially and I feel more and more filled by the Holy Spirit every day. I want to go out and preach the Good News, and it does not matter to me if I lose friends over my love for Jesus.

During those two weeks leading up to our rescheduled outing, I felt several times very strong intense feelings that the Holy Spirit was providing me signs and direction that I should use this time with him to “simply talk” to him about God, Jesus, creation, etc. All of this without being judgmental or argumentative. I say this because I’m very intelligent but have never been given the gift of articulation. It all makes sense in my head, but I often have two left feet when speaking. But I somehow had confidence that whatever I said would come out exactly the way it should.

So the night comes and goes and I shared many stories, asked a lot of questions and in general just talked to him about it. I can’t say he is no longer an atheist, but I believe God gave me the gift of finding ways around things that others normally miss to make people really think and reflect in ways they never have before.

Fast forward, at confession this week, I mentioned to father that during that night out, I had let a few colorful choice words fly, not in anger or at him, just as when I drink (more than I should), I am prone to swearing. Unfortunately, and this isn’t really part of the story, little did I know the microbrews I chose were very high alcohol content (my fault and a bad decision not asking), thus making me prone to swearing. When I told him what I was doing (talking to my friend who was an atheist) when I had let those choice words fly, he immediately interrupted and told me I should never try to convince an atheist that God exists. When I explained that I was just having a conversation and that I actually truly felt the Holy Spirit giving me direction on what to say (I am honest as a newborn about this, this is what I felt… I can’t put it into words really), he told me that atheists just use that as a cop out to do what they want. Which I agree with, but he was adamant that I should never do that again.

I left feeling confused. I agree with Father that atheists do use their atheism as a cop out to do what they want and not have to live by God’s rules, but at the same time, should I never talk to another atheist about it again? I mean, I really did feel like James was different, there was something that told me that he could change, and that he was worth having the conversation with, even if it meant he never wanted to hang out with me again. Plus, he told me that he was 99% atheist, and that he could maybe one day change his mind, because he could be open to that possibility that God exists. With that, I think it was worth it, but should I listen to Father?

Thanks

 

[acadiANNA]

I think that Father may have been trying to keep you from evil forces that are possibly in the guy. He may have wanted you to spend your time with people of faith. I can’t really speak for him, though. I will pray for ‘James’, that through you, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, he will be converted.

 

[ClearWater]

A good friend of mine, (let’s call him James), who I also work with, is an atheist. He is also a really good guy. He is also very open to others’ opinions and ideas. I find this refreshing because so many people just shut out conversation when someone has a differing opinion.

About a month ago, James and I made plans to go hang out, check out some foodie places around his area and maybe grab a micro-brew. Well I got sick and couldn’t make it so we rescheduled for a couple of weeks later. Prior to all of this one day at work, a few of us got into an impromptu conversation about religion. The topic of Christians came up and somehow someone said something that made me reply that a lot of Christians give real followers of Jesus a bad name, because they do not act like Christians, so on and so forth (if you get my point). He replied how right I was and that it made a lot of sense to him. The basic point I’m trying to articulate here is that during the conversation I realized that he could/would be open to listening to me talk about Jesus, primarily because what I had just said, he had never realized. So maybe I could plant some “conversational seeds” in his brain that would one day take root.

Sidetracking some here… my faith in Jesus has been growing exponentially and I feel more and more filled by the Holy Spirit every day. I want to go out and preach the Good News, and it does not matter to me if I lose friends over my love for Jesus.

During those two weeks leading up to our rescheduled outing, I felt several times very strong intense feelings that the Holy Spirit was providing me signs and direction that I should use this time with him to “simply talk” to him about God, Jesus, creation, etc. All of this without being judgmental or argumentative. I say this because I’m very intelligent but have never been given the gift of articulation. It all makes sense in my head, but I often have two left feet when speaking. But I somehow had confidence that whatever I said would come out exactly the way it should.

So the night comes and goes and I shared many stories, asked a lot of questions and in general just talked to him about it. I can’t say he is no longer an atheist, but I believe God gave me the gift of finding ways around things that others normally miss to make people really think and reflect in ways they never have before.

Fast forward, at confession this week, I mentioned to father that during that night out, I had let a few colorful choice words fly, not in anger or at him, just as when I drink (more than I should), I am prone to swearing. Unfortunately, and this isn’t really part of the story, little did I know the microbrews I chose were very high alcohol content (my fault and a bad decision not asking), thus making me prone to swearing. When I told him what I was doing (talking to my friend who was an atheist) when I had let those choice words fly, he immediately interrupted and told me I should never try to convince an atheist that God exists. When I explained that I was just having a conversation and that I actually truly felt the Holy Spirit giving me direction on what to say (I am honest as a newborn about this, this is what I felt… I can’t put it into words really), he told me that atheists just use that as a cop out to do what they want. Which I agree with, but he was adamant that I should never do that again.

I left feeling confused. I agree with Father that atheists do use their atheism as a cop out to do what they want and not have to live by God’s rules, but at the same time, should I never talk to another atheist about it again? I mean, I really did feel like James was different, there was something that told me that he could change, and that he was worth having the conversation with, even if it meant he never wanted to hang out with me again. Plus, he told me that he was 99% atheist, and that he could maybe one day change his mind, because he could be open to that possibility that God exists. With that, I think it was worth it, but should I listen to Father?

Thanks

I think it’s generally easier to lead by example.

Continue to be a positive example.

I was away from the church for about a decade at a time, once, and it was NOT people who were preaching at me who helped bring me back. It was their quiet example, sometimes an invitation but not a lot of pressure which did it. It was simple things…examples…their saying grace before eating, and meaning it!

It was that they LIVED their faith!

In my experience, the most positive tool you have is your life, and how you live it. I know this, to you, might seem very tame and lame. I can only assure you, if you are truly living your faith, it’s not. It can be VERY powerful. To me, a life lived well, is more valuable than all the preaching and nagging, and all the rest, in the world. I’d agree with the priest, in a sense, to be his friend, let your example speak for itself, accept him as he is, first, not try to change him in any way.

 

[ClearWater]

In fact, I’ve had people try to convert me, and generally, when I’ve encountered that, I’ve dug in my heels even harder…resisted more!

 

[mlz]

Love in the bridge that leads souls to Jesus. However He desires that to be done…do it! He IS LOVE and we who know Him need to emulate His beautiful love in whatever we can as weak as we are…we do our best and He helps us to do better. We can do NOTHING w/o HIM! (draw deep into the well of HIS LOVE!)
mlz

 

[a_priori]

Where did the progenitor particle from the Big Bang come from? Is it really easier to believe in a preexisting particle than a preexisting God?

 

[Allegra]

When people told me why they believed in God, it always helped my belief. Obviously, if one goes around trying to prove to atheists that they are wrong, they will push them away, But if one is genuine, I think seeds are planted. I can’t think of why the priest would tell you that, unless he sensed that you were too overbearing in your approach.

 

[a_priori]

In fact, I’ve had people try to convert me, and generally, when I’ve encountered that, I’ve dug in my heels even harder…resisted more!

i have atheist friends who have exerted great intellectual energy and arrived at their atheism. I respect that. I know people who have used as their starting point a dislike for theists and then reverse-engineered their atheism in response. I don’t respect that. I never try to “convert” anyone. Christ said “You shall be My witnesses”. He said nothing about a debating team. People are at different points in their journeys.

 

[hansard]

A few things come from this:

1. The need to stay away from religious topics when you are on the drink
2. Your moral obligation to accept people the way they are
3. The need to cease seeing atheists as vessels waiting to be filled. “If we could just convince them,” the argument goes, “then they wouldn’t be so darned atheistic.” The fact is that a true atheist doesn’t call himself that. The “theist” part doesn’t exist to have an “a-” in front of it. If it did, he’d call himself an a-goblinist, an a-fairyist and an a-karmaist among the many a-something appellations he could give himself.
   Further, most true atheists do not ever want to convince the religious that they are wrong and that true happiness lies in casting off religion. They don’t care if you are religious and know it would be pointless to try to convince you otherwise.
   They are as likely as Christians to be charitable, honest, courageous and just.
   Don’t try to change people. There’s no evidence to suggest you are right and he is wrong.
   Would you try to change a devout Muslim? A devout Jew? I doubt it.

 

[JoeFreedom]

I think it’s generally easier to lead by example.

Continue to be a positive example.

I was away from the church for about a decade at a time, once, and it was NOT people who were preaching at me who helped bring me back. It was their quiet example, sometimes an invitation but not a lot of pressure which did it. It was simple things…examples…their saying grace before eating, and meaning it!

It was that they LIVED their faith!

In my experience, the most positive tool you have is your life, and how you live it. I know this, to you, might seem very tame and lame. I can only assure you, if you are truly living your faith, it’s not. It can be VERY powerful. To me, a life lived well, is more valuable than all the preaching and nagging, and all the rest, in the world. I’d agree with the priest, in a sense, to be his friend, let your example speak for itself, accept him as he is, first, not try to change him in any way.

ClearWater,

Actually, you are very right. I normally do say and act on your comment, “it is how I live my life, being the example” is more powerful a tool than conversation. That is what I am trying to do. I am trying to live my life like Jesus commands and let that be the example. However, in this instance, I truly felt the Holy Spirit telling me to have a conversation with him. And it was just a conversation, there was no debate or arguments, it wasn’t meant to “change” him or convert him, it was honestly meant only to talk and listen.

But I think I may understand a bit better now after some of the responses about why Father said what he said. Even though I tried to explain it (again, like I stated, I don’t have the gift of words in articulation) to Father, I didn’t come across making my point, like I’m struggling to do here. The amazing thing though is that when James and I were talking, I felt no loss of words, and everything seemed to be said when it needed to be said in the way it needed to be said. Clearly, that wasn’t me.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

In fact, I’ve had people try to convert me, and generally, when I’ve encountered that, I’ve dug in my heels even harder…resisted more!

Exactly.

 

[ynotzap]

We must have the true conviction that we can not convert anyone, Jesus reserves that event strictly for Himself, as scripture says “…less anyone takes the credit.” Yes we plant the seed, and it depends on the soil as to whether the seed will grow. But plant the seed when ever the occasion presents itself. If you did it in love, you never go wrong no matter what the response may be, as I said many times, all we can do is to point the way to Christ, and live a Christian life, in so doing we become the “light of the world” Have courage, and perseverance, and trust in God, also keep praying.

 

[otjm]

There are atheists, and there are atheists.

Some are intellectuals who see some religionists as using “faith” as a crutch. Others see science as answering questions, and see faith as avoiding questions. Still others have some issue in their background which has led them to a firm conviction that religion is a sham and a power play, hollow of any truth.

Some use atheism as a means of justifying a lifestyle.

And some are simply ignorant of what the Faith is actually about.

You can propose; you cannot impose. If you friend wants to know more, either they will let you know, or you can, in a non-pushing way let them know that you would be glad to continue the conversation at their discretion, should they wish, and if they don’t, that such decision is not your basis for being friends or not being friends.

People who convert, generally do so when they are ready, and if they are not ready, they don’t. You can be there, but crowd them, and you will undo much of what you may have done to that point. If they ask, answer truthfully, and if you don’t know, tell them that, and that you will get back to them. Then do so.

In the meanwhile, try a pale ale or a bitter; they tend to be closer to a session beer. Check out the ABV if you are having more than one.

 

[ptisme]

I think it’s generally easier to lead by example.

Continue to be a positive example.

I was away from the church for about a decade at a time, once, and it was NOT people who were preaching at me who helped bring me back. It was their quiet example, sometimes an invitation but not a lot of pressure which did it. It was simple things…examples…their saying grace before eating, and meaning it!

It was that they LIVED their faith!

In my experience, the most positive tool you have is your life, and how you live it. I know this, to you, might seem very tame and lame. I can only assure you, if you are truly living your faith, it’s not. It can be VERY powerful. To me, a life lived well, is more valuable than all the preaching and nagging, and all the rest, in the world. I’d agree with the priest, in a sense, to be his friend, let your example speak for itself, accept him as he is, first, not try to change him in any way.

I think this is key. Be an example and pray pray pray. It’s Gods Grace that saves not our doing.

 

[ptisme]

i have atheist friends who have exerted great intellectual energy and arrived at their atheism. I respect that. I know people who have used as their starting point a dislike for theists and then reverse-engineered their atheism in response. I don’t respect that. I never try to “convert” anyone. Christ said “You shall be My witnesses”. He said nothing about a debating team. People are at different points in their journeys.

I’ve tried the debate team thing with an athiest. He just got angry for all the wrong reasons and I walked away feeling dirty. It’s a catch 22. Darned if you engage darned if you don’t.

 

[a_priori]

I’ve tried the debate team thing with an athiest. He just got angry for all the wrong reasons and I walked away feeling dirty. It’s a catch 22. Darned if you engage darned if you don’t.

“Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.” -St. Francis of Assisi

 

[blueshells]

A good friend of mine, (let’s call him James), who I also work with, is an atheist. He is also a really good guy. He is also very open to others’ opinions and ideas. I find this refreshing because so many people just shut out conversation when someone has a differing opinion.

About a month ago, James and I made plans to go hang out, check out some foodie places around his area and maybe grab a micro-brew. Well I got sick and couldn’t make it so we rescheduled for a couple of weeks later. Prior to all of this one day at work, a few of us got into an impromptu conversation about religion. The topic of Christians came up and somehow someone said something that made me reply that a lot of Christians give real followers of Jesus a bad name, because they do not act like Christians, so on and so forth (if you get my point). He replied how right I was and that it made a lot of sense to him. The basic point I’m trying to articulate here is that during the conversation I realized that he could/would be open to listening to me talk about Jesus, primarily because what I had just said, he had never realized. So maybe I could plant some “conversational seeds” in his brain that would one day take root.

Sidetracking some here… my faith in Jesus has been growing exponentially and I feel more and more filled by the Holy Spirit every day. I want to go out and preach the Good News, and it does not matter to me if I lose friends over my love for Jesus.

During those two weeks leading up to our rescheduled outing, I felt several times very strong intense feelings that the Holy Spirit was providing me signs and direction that I should use this time with him to “simply talk” to him about God, Jesus, creation, etc. All of this without being judgmental or argumentative. I say this because I’m very intelligent but have never been given the gift of articulation. It all makes sense in my head, but I often have two left feet when speaking. But I somehow had confidence that whatever I said would come out exactly the way it should.

So the night comes and goes and I shared many stories, asked a lot of questions and in general just talked to him about it. I can’t say he is no longer an atheist, but I believe God gave me the gift of finding ways around things that others normally miss to make people really think and reflect in ways they never have before.

Fast forward, at confession this week, I mentioned to father that during that night out, I had let a few colorful choice words fly, not in anger or at him, just as when I drink (more than I should), I am prone to swearing. Unfortunately, and this isn’t really part of the story, little did I know the microbrews I chose were very high alcohol content (my fault and a bad decision not asking), thus making me prone to swearing. When I told him what I was doing (talking to my friend who was an atheist) when I had let those choice words fly, he immediately interrupted and told me I should never try to convince an atheist that God exists. When I explained that I was just having a conversation and that I actually truly felt the Holy Spirit giving me direction on what to say (I am honest as a newborn about this, this is what I felt… I can’t put it into words really), he told me that atheists just use that as a cop out to do what they want. Which I agree with, but he was adamant that I should never do that again.

I left feeling confused. I agree with Father that atheists do use their atheism as a cop out to do what they want and not have to live by God’s rules, but at the same time, should I never talk to another atheist about it again? I mean, I really did feel like James was different, there was something that told me that he could change, and that he was worth having the conversation with, even if it meant he never wanted to hang out with me again. Plus, he told me that he was 99% atheist, and that he could maybe one day change his mind, because he could be open to that possibility that God exists. With that, I think it was worth it, but should I listen to Father?

Thanks

I’m so glad you’re so filled with zeal for the Lord! That being said, I often struggle to contain and channel my zeal for evangelization–a lot of times, I want to “convince” people to believe in God and enter the Church. But then I remember that that’s not how it happened for me: it happened through relationships. My mantra is “People, not projects”. For you, and for me, it might be entirely obvious that we should believe in God, but for others it might not be, and there’s probably a reason for that. Pray a lot about how you can be a instrument of God’s grace: figure out if He wants you to present arguments, or just yourself as someone who loves God and loves others. And it’s great that you prayed through your conversation with James–that’s exactly what you should be doing–but just keep in mind that sometimes people are not converted through one conversation. Their hearts are softened and a seed is planted, but it might take time before it bears fruit and you may never see it. Just keep praying.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I think it’s generally easier to lead by example.

Continue to be a positive example.

I was away from the church for about a decade at a time, once, and it was NOT people who were preaching at me who helped bring me back. It was their quiet example, sometimes an invitation but not a lot of pressure which did it. It was simple things…examples…their saying grace before eating, and meaning it!

It was that they LIVED their faith!

In my experience, the most positive tool you have is your life, and how you live it. I know this, to you, might seem very tame and lame. I can only assure you, if you are truly living your faith, it’s not. It can be VERY powerful. To me, a life lived well, is more valuable than all the preaching and nagging, and all the rest, in the world. I’d agree with the priest, in a sense, to be his friend, let your example speak for itself, accept him as he is, first, not try to change him in any way.

I am all for living by example and living out our faith, and yes this is powerful, but I don’t think we can limit ourselves to this. The OP has said that he is comfortable verbally evangelizing with non-believers, and that is a trait that should be encouraged, not discouraged. The priest’s advice was very, very bad. Evangelize away! To those who say that we evangelize simply by “living by example” I have to say, if all it took to convert people to Christianity was to act holy and be nice to people, then the whole world would be Mormon. Anybody can be nice, and people aren’t going to always automatically associate your niceness with your Catholic faith. Most people will just think that you are a nice person. But there are a LOT of people out there who don’t know the gospel and really need to hear it and it is people like JoeFreedom who are called to bring it to them! Go JoeFreedom!

 

[merne9]

I don’t know how to answer the question about your priest reaction. But I wanted to comment that I really admire how balance you are in talking to your friend. I sometimes can’t articulate what the thoughts in my head but I found that reading more books has expanded my vocabulary so that every word IS used to max capacity. Sometimes we don’t have the opportunity to talk 2-3 hours sometimes we only have a few minutes so every word counts. I think I really learned how to talk to atheist with the book from Trent Horn called Answering Atheism. Anyway, I think it’s great.

 

[Gibeuromonies]

Convincing an atheist is hard. The easiest and most effective way is to appeal to Logos, or Logic. Convince him that there was a Galilean named Jesus who said he was the Son of God and was put to death by Pontius Pilate. We have secular proof of this. This Trojan horse will open him up, even if ever so slightly, guaranteed. Here’s the proof:

1. Josephus: Tell him about the Testimonium Flavium. Josephus (born about 37 A.D.), was a Roman Jew, and he mentions Jesus in his work Antiquities of the Jews. Now, most scholars say that it’s current version is a Christian forgery, but most scholars also accept that it was originally written something like this:
   “At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) has not died out.”

Now, it wasn’t exactly like that, but it was most likely pretty close. Also, there is another reference later in the book: “Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James,”.

1. Mara bar Serapion: Mara bar Serapion was a Pagan philosopher, and he provides us the second best and earliest proof of Christ, written in 73 AD in a letter to his son. "What else can we say, when the wise are forcibly dragged off by tyrants, their wisdom is captured by insults, and their minds are oppressed and without defense? What advantage did the Athenians gain from murdering Socrates? Famine and plague came upon them as a punishment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the “new law” he laid down.

The King of the Jews is most definitely Jesus, and his “new Law”, well, that’s obvious.

1. Tacitus: Tactius, in his Annales (15.44) written in 115, covers history from 14-68AD. He treats the fire in Rome under Nero in 64CE, and discusses Nero’s blaming of the Christians. He mentions “The author of this name, Christ, was put to death by the procurator, Pontius Pilate, while Tiberius was emperor; but the dangerous superstition, though suppressed for the moment, broke out again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but even in the city”. Tacitus was no Christian sympathizer, but he unwittingly provided some of the best proof of Christ. God works in mysterious ways.
2. Suetonius: In his Lives of the Caesars, written in 115, discussing Claudius (41-54), he mentions the deportations of Jews after riots “on the instigation of Chrestus”, commonly accepted as a misspelling of “Christ”.
3. Pliny the Younger: Writing in 112 AD, letters 10.96-97, discusses the issue of Christians gathering together, illegally. He knows a few facts about early Christian practice, and so by the early second century we know that Christians exist and believe in a Christ figure.

No self-respecting atheist can doubt the existence of Jesus after this. As I said earlier, use this as a Trojan Horse, and slowly bring them in.