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ptisme
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PS, The Catholic Church does not have an opinion as to whether there ever existed a man named Job or if this was a story… Either way it’s a good example for Christians to follow.
Convincing a 99% atheist
- Thread starter JoeFreedom
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Helpful_Atheist
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Yeah I know people who both argue that he did and did not exist. So truce. On the point of the link you sent there is a problem equating genesis as not a literal 6 days for a few reasons.
1.) When the mentioning of the sabath day as holy this is a clear reference to one literal day because we are supposed to keep the seventh day of the week holy because that is when the lord rested, and if it wasn’t a literal day but millions of years that god rested why ask them to keep one day off
2.) The bible has covered generically long time spans before so if it wasn’t literally a day god wouldn’t have needed to tell them 4.5 billion years but he could have said something like “and the Lord worked for forty days and forty nights[a phrase often meaning “a long time”] to build the earth and make it suitable for his most holy creations” but instead they say day.
C.) As a side note if you were planning on saying that we don’t know what a day is to god so a day to him could be 4.5 billions years to us, that is also false because “day” is a human invention and is used to mean 24 earth hours so even god experiences a day as the same amount of time, 24 earth hours.
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ptisme
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Let’s clear some things up.
Fundamentalist protestants believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and was created in six actual days. But to understand the bible you need to understand the original language it was written in.
Genesis was written (probably) by Moses about 4,000 years ago. The term used in original Hebrew for day was Yom (like Yom Kippur
Yom actually has three meanings in Hebrew:- Sunrise to sunset (12 hours)
- Sunrise to sunrise (24 hours)
- an indefinite period of time.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
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Helpful_Atheist
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Oh I actually didn’t know the third meaning thanks for sharing that, of course the issue is light and dark 1.) were never together to be seperated 2.) light existed from the beginning and the sun didn’t come after the earth so day night cycles would have existed from the beginning too and the most important thing is the firmament which is basically supposed to be a giant dome like thing(where the sky is) but is something physical not an atmosphereLet’s clear some things up.
Fundamentalist protestants believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and was created in six actual days. But to understand the bible you need to understand the original language it was written in.
Genesis was written (probably) by Moses about 4,000 years ago. The term used in original Hebrew for day was Yom (like Yom Kippur
Since light and dark were not separated until the forth day we can exclude options one and two:
- Sunrise to sunset (12 hours)
- Sunrise to sunrise (24 hours)
- an indefinite period of time.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
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ptisme
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- It doesn’t suggest they were together. It is simply suggesting day and night were made into separate periods.
- Go back and read Genesis. The first day God said “let there be light”.
- No, The firmament was the fact that the atmosphere was separated from the bodies of water. Not a physical object…
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ptisme
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OK, Back to your point about the bible’s teachings being bad. Since you suggest you for sure couldn’t follow Christ, what is it in the New Testament teachings that concerns you?
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Helpful_Atheist
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Well for me a big portion is about worship, so if for example I were given undeniable proof that the Christian god is real I still would not want my life to be about the unending eternal worship of anything let alone the god of the bible. I also wouldn’t want my life’s work to simply be about glorifying god. As for actual teachings in the new testament I don’t like are: Jesus telling his disciples to take no care for the morrow and live as though the end of the world was fast approaching. To be sure to not to love their families any more than they loved him.
In regards to your other post I will respond in the order you spoke
1.) I can see where I went wrong in describing that however it’s not something god actively did, it wasn’t like day and night could be happening at the same time(in the same place not like how one half of earth is day and another is night) so I suppose I’m saying god was padding his resume on this one
2.)Light may have happened on the first day but not until after the earth and heavens were made:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
So earth and heavens before light
3.) If you look at later parts of the bible like Noah’s Ark it talks about holes in the firmament and how the firmament is holding water above it(ie. the floodwaters of Noah’s flood) and if it has holes and is holding up water it sounds like an it.
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ptisme
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OK, There’s a lot here that I feel needs squaring here and I don’t know where to start. Let me just say this: If this whole Christian thing is real THEN that would mean there is also a hell. No where in the bible does it say “good” people go to heaven. It says “holy” people go to heaven…
God created us to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him in this world, so we can be happy with Him in the next.
If Christianity is real then we are all God’s children. As such He gives us free will to chose Him or not to choose Him. You are either moving toward Him or away, never parallel. So even though you may not move toward hell that is the only other direction in the afterlife (If this God thing is real). You see, Hell is a lonely, horrible place because it’s far from God. He doesn’t put us there, we put ourselves there.
If God is real then you would need to know that there are two pathways: Heaven and Hell. You get to choose. I’ll leave you with the story of Lazarus because I pray this isn’t you one day my friend:
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ptisme
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[19] "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
[20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
[21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
[23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
[24] And he called out,
[26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
[27] And he said,
[30] And he said,
[20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
[21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
[23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
[24] And he called out,
Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' [25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.[26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
[27] And he said,
**Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' ** [29] But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’[30] And he said,
No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' [31] He said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’"
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Helpful_Atheist
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To be honest I am willing to go to hell to stand by what I believe in(I don’t mean atheism here I mean my principles and not worshiping someone in the face of a threat)
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ptisme
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Now you perhaps can see why pride is the deadliest of the seven deadly sins. To be honest with you, fear of hell for myself and my children was why I initially came back. But as I grew closer to God i now have a relationship based on loving him. Before I did that I would ponder often what the meaning of this life of suffering was. Food for thought.
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Helpful_Atheist
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My lack of fear of hell isn’t pride it’s a willingness to stand up for what I believe in.
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ptisme
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well, best of luck to you sir. From an outsiders view I see what you are doing as the equivalent of the man who’s standing on the ledge of the high rise ready to jump. Everyone can see how sad the situation is but the person on the ledge. As a final effort I leave you this:
youtube.com/watch?v=kLimoqZUWgw
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Helpful_Atheist
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Perhaps I can tell you how I see it. I see it as someone who is telling me that there is a ledge in front of me and that any moment now I will fall off, unless I’m willing to step back and thank his friend who had warned him of the cliff, as well as spending the rest of my life thanking his friend, while never seeing him or meeting him. My view is I am willing to risk that ledge not being there, and if it was then any God who is worth worship wouldn’t condemn me for not showing himself.
(As for the video the dying and going to hell/heaven videos do not move me in the slightest because there is a very significant difference between dying and being declared legally dead. If you are actually dead then you wouldn’t be able to tell the tale of what you saw and if you are legally dead it usually means something similar to your heart stopping but that doesn’t mean you have died and in fact in the case of Howard Storm it turns out that there is no evidence to suggest he died(even being legally dead).
Y
ynotzap
Guest
God would never condemn one of his children, we condemn ourselves knowingly. If we don’t know, we can’t give what we do not have. God in Jesus Christ desire eternal happiness for all men, nothing less. We can not give anyone a willingness to change, he may not know that he has to change. We as Christians recognize this willingness to change as a gift from Jesus Christ. We also believe that no one can go to Christ unless the Father calls him, and no can go to the Father except through Jesus This is a gift of Faith, and no amount of reasoning can give it to us. We didn’t give it to ourselves, so as Christians we do not judge, but pray that the Father calls and we respond.
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ptisme
Guest
Matthew 7: 7-11
JoeFreedom
New member
To blueshells for your response. Thank you.
To CompSciGuy for your response. Thank you.
To merne9 for your response. Thank you.
And thank you Helpful Atheist for being respectful and truthful (in and of speaking about how you feel), unlike many of the “nasties”, as you call them.
To CompSciGuy for your response. Thank you.
To merne9 for your response. Thank you.
And thank you Helpful Atheist for being respectful and truthful (in and of speaking about how you feel), unlike many of the “nasties”, as you call them.
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