Copernius, Galileo wrong. Church right. Any apologies?

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Exactly. Although it is interesting to see where new developments in cosmology and other areas of science lead, I don’t think it is prudent to try to make a religious issue of out this by saying that Galileo was wrong and the Church was right. It usually doesn’t end up going well for the theist because the secularist scientist understands his study very well and will probably win the scientific argument, which just makes the theist’s position look silly and knee-jerk in comparison. And as we all know the claims of Catholicism and theism in general do not rest on the physical location of the Earth anyway. I think it is better to just let the scientists work this out in peace and continue to point out the flaws in their unreflective, dogmatic metaphysical assumptions.
I agree, I just thought it very interesting and who knows where it will lead? I think the important thing is that now scientist should realize how unfair it has been to brutalize the Church for its midieval conviction that the universe is geocentric. The reason is that they now see how difficult it is for anyone to be absolutely positive, certainly there is sufficient doubt to stop accusing the Church for being ignorant and anti-science. But of course geocentrism has never been a teaching of the Church, it was only the common teaching of midieval philosophers and theologians.

Linus2nd
 
You misrepresent the nature of science. All true scientists search for errors in their work. If and when they are found they will go back to the drawing broad and start over. Galileo was accused of being a heretic by the CC, not because he was a scientist working with what he and not because he was right or wrong but because his findings didn’t suit the Church. Can you imagine what it was like to be labeled heretic by the Pope in those days? You and your family would lose everything, perhaps be burned at a stake, all because your scientific inquiries where disliked by the Church. How many times has the church been wrong through the ages and how many heretics have suffered indescribable tortures and death because of it.

Galileo got off easy:

Galileo agreed not to teach the heresy anymore and spent the rest of his life under house arrest. It took more than 300 years for the Church to admit that Galileo was right and to clear his name of heresy.

To be sure, the CC and other denominations have received revelation and corrected their ways allowing us, once again, to be proud to be Christians.
The case was not so black and white as you suppose. Galileo was condemned for teaching heliocentrism as a proven fact. And it must be noted that it was not heliocentrism that was condemned and that the condemnation was not an ex cathedra condemnation of heresy. Futher, Galileo was far from prudent both before and after the condemnation, which resulted in a second condemnation related to his non-comliance to his agreement with the holy office. Nor was he obliged not to teach the theory, rather he was to regard it as a hypothesis. Nor did Galileo suffer (name removed by moderator)risonment, except for a brief period of 25 days, and even then he was not locked in a cell. He had allies in high places as well, in fact Urban Vlll bestowed a legacy on him, which was quite unusual. It must be said then that Galileo brought his problems upon himself, and that it is rather rash to judge the actions of the principles of that era, still smarting from and suffering from the effects of the Reformation by our own " enlightend " views. Hindsight is always easy.

By the way Galileo’s family did not suffer from these incidents.

Here is an excellent article on the whole affair from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

Linus2nd
 
So this guy’s name is John QPublic, hunh? :ehh: :hmmm:

I read through his article, and the way and style it’s written makes me not trust a word he says.
It just doesn’t sound right.
That’s what I was thinking. Doesn’t look like a very authoritative source, and the article is neither lengthy nor substantial. This John QPublic article certainly doesn’t warrant the whole scientific community of the world converging on Rome on their hands and knees to apologize about how wrong they’ve been all these centuries.
 
That’s what I was thinking. Doesn’t look like a very authoritative source, and the article is neither lengthy nor substantial. This John QPublic article certainly doesn’t warrant the whole scientific community of the world converging on Rome on their hands and knees to apologize about how wrong they’ve been all these centuries.
About that entire rest of the thread…
 
I stand corrected Galileo was not convicted of heresy he was merely suspected of heresy.

Galileo and the Inquisition

Being one of the most renowned scientist of his time Galileo’s opinions were scrutinized not only be his peers, but by also by Church officials and the public in general. This made Galileo the lightning-rod of many complaints against the Copernican doctrine (and also some against Galileo himself). He did not come out unscathed out of these encounters

In 1633 Galileo was formally interrogated for 18 days and on April 30 Galileo confesses that he may have made the Copernican case in the Dialogue too strong and offers to refute it in his next book. Unmoved, the Pope decides that Galileo should be imprisoned indefinitely. Soon after, with a formal threat of torture, Galileo is examined by the Inquisition and sentenced to prison and religious penances, the sentence is signed by 6 of the 10 inquisitors. In a formal ceremony at a the church of Santa Maria Sofia Minerva, Galileo abjures his errors. He is then put in house arrest in Sienna. After these tribulations he begins writing his Discourse on Two New Sciences.

Galileo remained under house arrest, despite many medical problems and a deteriorating state of health, until his death in 1642. The Church finally accepted that Galileo might be right in 1983.

Source:

Please re-read what I wrote about heretics and their families at the time and about Galileo getting off easy.
 
Well, there is genuine scientific analysis behind the article. Do some more research yourself and you will see. I included this one link because it explained the issue succinctly.

Linus2nd
Succinctly…and incorrectly. Reminds me of the Noah’s Ark groups. Oh…there it is…oops…no…there it is…oops. Copernicus was right, and not one accepted piece of evidence has been produced to say else-wise.

The Church has correctly apologized on several occasions. Galileo, was one of those.
 
The case was not so black and white as you suppose. Galileo was condemned for teaching heliocentrism as a proven fact. And it must be noted that it was not heliocentrism that was condemned and that the condemnation was not an ex cathedra condemnation of heresy. Futher, Galileo was far from prudent both before and after the condemnation, which resulted in a second condemnation related to his non-comliance to his agreement with the holy office. Nor was he obliged not to teach the theory, rather he was to regard it as a hypothesis. Nor did Galileo suffer (name removed by moderator)risonment, except for a brief period of 25 days, and even then he was not locked in a cell. He had allies in high places as well, in fact Urban Vlll bestowed a legacy on him, which was quite unusual. It must be said then that Galileo brought his problems upon himself, and that it is rather rash to judge the actions of the principles of that era, still smarting from and suffering from the effects of the Reformation by our own " enlightend " views. Hindsight is always easy.

By the way Galileo’s family did not suffer from these incidents.

Here is an excellent article on the whole affair from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

Linus2nd
The whole incident is another excellent case for the separation of church and state. The church should have had not a single thing to say about what a private scientist was doing.

The Reformation was a good start…they just didn’t finish their work until 1776.
 
Copernicus was right that the earth rotates around the sun, but the Copernican principle seems to be proved wrong by these findings.
Wikipedia:
In physical cosmology, the Copernican principle, named after Nicolaus Copernicus, states that the Earth is not in a central, specially favored position in the universe.
 
Do you think your blogger might be a naughty fifth-columnist?

Aristotelian physics, which was once the only game in town, was what we would today call highly speculative. It speculated that everything was made of four elements; that those elements were enchanted, each animated to move to its “natural place”; that the natural place for element earth was the center of planet Earth, which was the central sphere in the Celestial Spheres; and so on.

No one today gives much of that any credence. All we actually know about your blogger is he cherry-picked one bit of it and tried to match it to a single unexplained observation; he didn’t give his name or qualifications; he didn’t even pay for his free blog site; oh, and he claims to be Catholic. :whistle:

Here’s what a real Catholic said:

Thanks to his intuition as a brilliant physicist and by relying on different arguments, Galileo, who practically invented the experimental method, understood why only the sun could function as the centre of the world, as it was then known, that is to say, as a planetary system. The error of the theologians of the time, when they maintained the centrality of the earth, was to think that our understanding of the physical world’s structure was, in some way, imposed by the literal sense of Sacred Scripture.-
Pope John Paul II, L’Osservatore Romano, 4 Nov 1992 quoted here
 
I think that wether or not the earth is the center of the universe, it isn’t blasphemy to say the earth revolves around the sun. That has nothing to do with God. And I don’t think it’s right to put someone under house arrest for believing that.
 
Did you not read the rest of the thread?
Nonetheless, anonymous has little scientific credibility despite his prolific posting. A true scientist would never have made such a definitive statement as in the first blog based on irregularities in background radiation. Theories must be tested. An surprising find does not always mean the “Galileo was right”.

I feel like CAF has fallen in a rabbit hole.

FYI - In my opinion, Galileo was still remarkable dense when it came to understanding people. He was granted permission to pursue his theories. There was no need for him to mock the pope do do so, or to elevate theory above fact, an error the OP’s blog also makes.
 
Nonetheless, anonymous has little scientific credibility despite his prolific posting. A true scientist would never have made such a definitive statement as in the first blog based on irregularities in background radiation. Theories must be tested. An surprising find does not always mean the “Galileo was right”.

I feel like CAF has fallen in a rabbit hole.

FYI - In my opinion, Galileo was still remarkable dense when it came to understanding people. He was granted permission to pursue his theories. There was no need for him to mock the pope do do so, or to elevate theory above fact, an error the OP’s blog also makes.
Agreed.

God bless,
Ut
 
I stand corrected Galileo was not convicted of heresy he was merely suspected of heresy.

Galileo and the Inquisition

Being one of the most renowned scientist of his time Galileo’s opinions were scrutinized not only be his peers, but by also by Church officials and the public in general. This made Galileo the lightning-rod of many complaints against the Copernican doctrine (and also some against Galileo himself). He did not come out unscathed out of these encounters

In 1633 Galileo was formally interrogated for 18 days and on April 30 Galileo confesses that he may have made the Copernican case in the Dialogue too strong and offers to refute it in his next book. Unmoved, the Pope decides that Galileo should be imprisoned indefinitely. Soon after, with a formal threat of torture, Galileo is examined by the Inquisition and sentenced to prison and religious penances, the sentence is signed by 6 of the 10 inquisitors. In a formal ceremony at a the church of Santa Maria Sofia Minerva, Galileo abjures his errors. He is then put in house arrest in Sienna. After these tribulations he begins writing his Discourse on Two New Sciences.

Galileo remained under house arrest, despite many medical problems and a deteriorating state of health, until his death in 1642. The Church finally accepted that Galileo might be right in 1983.

Source:

Please re-read what I wrote about heretics and their families at the time and about Galileo getting off easy.
Will I think the Catholic Encyclopedia explanation is about as clear as the case can be made. I’ll stick with that version. And who is Jose Pudka?

Linus2nd
 
It is beginning to look like Copernius and Galileo were wrong and the Church was righgt. It now appears that the earth may indeed be the center of the universe. So the question is, will the world apologize for the abuse that has been heaped upon it for the last 500 years? Will the professors in our universities across the land stop upbrating the Church? At the very least they should admit that actually determining the center of the universe is far from being as easy as Copernicus and Galileo thought.

medium.com/@john_qpublic/planck-satellite-confirms-wmap-findings-universe-is-not-copernican-26f88f17a732

Linus2nd
No apologies are required because the CMB data does not mean what JohnQPublic or the OP think it means. While there are some anomalies in the CMB anisotropies, they are neither evidence for geocentrism nor for the demise of the Standard Model of cosmology.
 
It is beginning to look like Copernius and Galileo were wrong and the Church was righgt. It now appears that the earth may indeed be the center of the universe. So the question is, will the world apologize for the abuse that has been heaped upon it for the last 500 years? Will the professors in our universities across the land stop upbrating the Church? At the very least they should admit that actually determining the center of the universe is far from being as easy as Copernicus and Galileo thought.

medium.com/@john_qpublic/planck-satellite-confirms-wmap-findings-universe-is-not-copernican-26f88f17a732

Linus2nd
Do you really believe this? There was no earth at 380,000 years after big bang. Earth age is 4.54 billion years, sun age is 4.6 billion years and age of universe is 14 billion years meaning that there is a gap in which there was no solar system.

You can read more here.
 
Will I think the Catholic Encyclopedia explanation is about as clear as the case can be made. I’ll stick with that version. And who is Jose Pudka?

Linus2nd
If you don’t read other historical accounts or reject them out of hand when you do then of course the only one you agree with will be clear to you.
 
It is beginning to look like Copernius and Galileo were wrong and the Church was righgt. It now appears that the earth may indeed be the center of the universe. So the question is, will the world apologize for the abuse that has been heaped upon it for the last 500 years? Will the professors in our universities across the land stop upbrating the Church? At the very least they should admit that actually determining the center of the universe is far from being as easy as Copernicus and Galileo thought.

medium.com/@john_qpublic/planck-satellite-confirms-wmap-findings-universe-is-not-copernican-26f88f17a732
To quote a famous President:
Do not believe everything you see on the Internet. – Abraham Lincoln
If this were to be shown correct then there will be a Nobel Prize in it for someone. Short of that, then it is just some anonymous internet poster spouting off.

rossum
 
Do you really believe this? There was no earth at 380,000 years after big bang. Earth age is 4.54 billion years, sun age is 4.6 billion years and age of universe is 14 billion years meaning that there is a gap in which there was no solar system.

You can read more here.
Nothing in that article contradicts anything I said. Indeed, it says, " We may have to rethink some things. " ( paraphrased )

Since the Microwave Antisotropy Probe launch ( 2001 ) questions have arisen concerning the Standard heliocentric model. All I am doing is pointing out how difficult it is to prove absolutely many things in science. In view of this the shabby treatment of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis science is unjustified and is a mark of prejudice, simply.

Here is some interesting discussion on this topic.

" …Second, it is incorrect to identify this group of “conservative Roman Catholics” as a splinter
group. Resurgent interest in geocentrism can be found across many religious groups, and
there are some modern defenders of the geocentric hypothesis who are not members of
any religious group at all. I do think all would agree that, if science had irrefutably proven
that the Earth revolves around the sun, we would not be engaged in this endeavor. We
would have adjusted our interpretation of Scripture to fit with the instruction of St.
Augustine, that is, if science ever proves its case we will maintain that the Bible only speaks
figuratively on cosmological topics. The whole basis for our movement, however, is that
science has not proven the Earth moves and, in fact, mounting scientific evidence over the
last one hundred years or so, and especially in the last 20 years, has shown astounding
evidence that the Earth is, indeed, in the center of the universe. We didn’t invent these
ideas. They come from some of the top cosmologists in the world today. In fact, when we
happen to catch these cosmologists admitting to a central Earth, we sometimes find them
trying to hide these same admissions when the media spotlight comes upon them. Such was
3
the case, for example, when Lawrence Krauss of Arizona State University was interviewed
by Dru Sefton in May 2006 when he was at Case Western University. Ms. Sefton used Dr.
Krauss as my opponent, quoting him saying “What works? Science works. Geocentrism
doesn’t. End of story.” On the Internet, however, we found Dr. Krauss giving a whole
different testimony on geocentrism when he wrote his article “The Energy of Empty Space
That Isn’t Zero” just two months later in July 2006.1
So let’s make it clear from the outset. We don’t wear tin foil hats and wait for messages
from outer space. We don’t just spit out Bible verses and ignore the science. We take our
model from St. Paul who suggested in 1 Corinthians 9:20 that we should become all things
to all people when we preach the Gospel. To scientists who want to talk science, we’ll be
scientists and talk science. As such, we can show these scientists that the popular science
touted in universities today involves foundational assumptions which are philosophical,
not scientific, in nature. For example, today’s Big Bang cosmology simply doesn’t work
unless it is injected with 96% energy and matter that has never been observationally
detected, despite decades of lavishly funded experiments to find it (including the 1 billion
dollar Hadron collider). Yes, you heard that correctly. And unless these exotic forms of
matter and energy can be experimentally identified, the Big Bang theory increasingly relies
upon more and more assumptions involving less and less observable entities. These are
serious questions. Unless this 96% missing stuff is found, the Big Bang theory remains on
life support. And guess what the kicker is? Those sympathetic to a geocentric view of the
universe in the scientific community tell us that we can do away with the need for this 96%
missing stuff if science would be willing to abandon the Copernican princip
galileowaswrong.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Response-to-Chicago-Tribune-on-Geocentrism-Conference.pdf …"

Linus2nd
 
Nothing in that article contradicts anything I said. Indeed, it says, " We may have to rethink some things. " ( paraphrased )
Nothing in that article or in the science warrants the emphatic tone of the title of the thread or the emphatic rhetoric of the OP:
It is beginning to look like Copernius and Galileo were wrong and the Church was righgt. It now appears that the earth may indeed be the center of the universe
Nothing in the CMB data warrants such a claim.
Since the Microwave Antisotropy Probe launch ( 2001 ) questions have arisen concerning the Standard heliocentric model.
The CMB data does not support geocentrism. There is no such thing as a standard *heliocentric *model - the standard model of cosmology does not support any centre for the universe at all nor any state of absolute rest.
All I am doing is pointing out how difficult it is to prove absolutely many things in science.
It is impossible absolutely to prove anything in science. Science does not deal in proofs.
In view of this the shabby treatment of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis science is unjustified and is a mark of prejudice, simply.
The criticism of what the Church did at the time of the Galileo affair is because it suppressed an opinion which it is not competent to judge - a matter of natural science. Galileo’s opinion that the earth moves remains the scientific view and if you think that the CMB data says otherwise I should be very interested in hearing you explain exactly how the data supports that opinion.
 
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