Copernius, Galileo wrong. Church right. Any apologies?

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I see you’ve opted for pretending my taste is as good as yours for the sake of politeness.
Well, that’s because I don’t measure taste as something “as good as” or “worse than” mine.

I never consider it as a measure of anyone.

Their tastes are their tastes.

And I am astonished that you would think that I would have some sort of condescension for someone who likes butter pecan ice cream, which I find to be too treacly.
I don’t think you’re listening to me on this point. I don’t think child rape is acceptable.
That’s exactly right. You don’t. And you don’t think anyone else ought to be doing it either.

That’s because you DON’T think that morality is a matter of taste.

That’s what I’ve been trying to show you.

If you do believe it’s a matter of taste, then you ought to have the same attitude about it as I do when someone likes turnips which is “They are icky to me. But more power to you! Go for it and enjoy you your turnips, man!”
However, I don’t assume that someone who rapes a child is somehow less competent than me to observe the external world or make logical inferences.
Indeed. Neither do I.
 
How does one gauge how well a particular interpretation was conceived, though? In the scientific community, if one scientist reports results and other scientists are unable to replicate those results under the same conditions, that scientist’s work is discredited. How does one discredit another’s interpretation of a writing?
Question. How does one discredit another’s interpretation of a writing?

Answer. The same way that CAF members discredit another’s interpretation of a writing. I usually look for cherry picking and then ask for context, that is, after I personally checked context. Non sequitur approach can be used. Or even flaws in logic. In my childhood neighborhood, we learned to be careful of bait and switch tactics. One time, I simply suggested that the person scroll down to the bottom of the document and check the authors.
Peer review is a process that is never finished. I will again use an example everyone is tired of hearing by now: the overthrow of Newtonian physics by Relativity. There were many scientists who, before that overthrow, believed the matter was settled. Peer review of Newton’s work had already been going for two centuries, so how much more caution should we need, they must have thought. But no, there is no statute of limitations on peer review in science, which is why a result is never deemed infallible.
Now I am embarrassed. I thought you were referring to research papers for publication in peer reviewed science journals. All is not lost. Posts 279, 281 & 282 still stand as written.
Contrast this to the discussion in Councils. I am not an expert on this, but I am assuming that the Councils do finish up their work and eventually declare an interpretation infallible, correct?
Posts 279, 281 & 282 referred to Catholic doctrines. As explained in these posts, interpretations of Scripture are studied extensively. This includes studying the Church Fathers’ interpretations plus all kinds of writings. The studies become evidence for declaring an infallible doctrine. I did not address infallible interpretations because I am not familiar with that process.

I believe that there are some Scripture verses which have been declared truth filled. Sorry, I do not know the process for that.
I would argue that forming an interpretation and defining a doctrine amount to the same thing. As I attempted to illustrate with my foreign book analogy, being the sole interpreter essentially grants someone the same power they would hold as the author. It reminds me of a quote by Stalin (I think it was him, anyway): “The person who votes isn’t nearly as important as the person who counts the votes.” Granted, now you have a council of people deciding how they’ll translate the foreign book rather than an individual, but the principle is the same: their work is now beyond criticism since the council has made its decision.
There are all kinds of groups or councils who decide how to translate the original editions of the Bible that is the foreign book and then they publish it. Every so often, there is a CAF thread about the different Bibles. So the foreign book analogy made sense to me. The most recent discussion was about the new New American Bible.

Come to think of it. There is plenty of criticism about Catholic doctrines, etc. etc. One of the doctrines was renamed as “granny’s magical mystery tour.” That was years ago – and I am still standing…and laughing!

Seriously,
Regarding the statement
“I would argue that forming an interpretation and defining a doctrine amount to the same thing.”

In my humble observation, people form interpretations of Holy Scripture all the time. I do interpretations on a limited basis. My rule is that my interpretation cannot contradict a Catholic doctrine. A lot of Catholics would say that what I am really doing is meditating on a Scripture passage. I can agree with that.

I am familiar with interpretations of Scripture being used as evidence in the process of determining infallibility of a proposed doctrine. I am not at all familiar with your points about interpretations. Thus, I would have to ask these questions: Who? How? What? When? Where? and Why?
 

Other reports say the Church planned a statue of Galileo in the Vatican gardens in 2008. There are also several glowing references to Galileo by Pope Benedict (search vatican.va).

Wow, erecting statues and glowing references overturn the direct and repeated actions of previous popes? Sorry, I don’t buy it.
 
That only means that there is an anisotropy in distribution of mass in universe which can cause an anisotropy in any sub-structure. It doesn’t mean that Earth is in center of the world and everything is rotating around it.
It means there is an anisotropy correlated to the earth. Agreed, this in itself does not indicate the universe is turning around the earth. It does pose a significant challenge to the Copernican Principle.
 
Wow, erecting statues and glowing references overturn the direct and repeated actions of previous popes? Sorry, I don’t buy it.
It is true that John Paul II spoke of Galileo in glowing words in reference to his scientific achievements, which were great and quite innovative. He was certainly one of the first genuine scientists. However he did not say that he had proven that the earth circles the sun, for he had not proven that.

Innocente likes him because she thinks he put a thumb in the eye of Aristotle, another in the eye of Thomas Aquinas, and a boot in the Chruch’s back side and for launching modern science.

Linus2nd
 
Again, you are confusing definitions here.

Something doesn’t have to be proclaimed infallibly for Catholics to assent to it.

But it does have to be a teaching of the Church.

So if you could give some examples of Church teaching (even if it’s not infallibly defined) that shows that Catholics may torture heretics, and that Catholicism endorsed slavery, that would be great.

Here we must understand “teaching” (whether infallible or fallible–it matters not), vs some theological opinions or writings of a particular bishop or (especially) actions of individuals.

IOW: just because a person wrote something,or did something, and was a Catholic, or even was a priest, or even was a bishop, or even was a…

wait for it…
wait for it…

pope…

that doesn’t make it a Church teaching.

To wit: did you know that a pope of recent history wrote a book called Jesus of Nazareth in which he speculates that the Gospel of John was not written by the Apostle John?

Now, in your understanding, since this is written by a pope, are you of the impression that this is an infallible teaching? If it’s not infallible, is it a fallible teaching of the Church?

Answer: it’s none of the above. It’s not even a teaching of the Church.

Even if it was written by a pope.
Excuse me for chimming in here PRmerger. I haven’t read the book but the
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is supporting the book on their website so I don’t think you are telling the truth.

“November 21, 2012
Publishes “The Infancy of Jesus” completing his “Jesus of Nazareth” trilogy. The book was translated into 20 languages including English, French, Spanish and Polish”
usccb.org/about/leadership/holy-see/benedict-xvi/pope-benedict-xvi-timeline-2012-2013.cfm

Also,The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops states beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/compendium
  1. Why is there no contradiction between faith and science?
    159
    Though faith is above reason, there can never be a contradiction between faith and science because both originate in God. It is God himself who gives to us the light both of reason and of faith.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/compendium/index.cfm

So all that I have written prior to this message on this topic is in agreement with the USCCB. Thank you.
 
Excuse me for chimming in here PRmerger. I haven’t read the book but the
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is supporting the book on their website so I don’t think you are telling the truth.

“November 21, 2012
Publishes “The Infancy of Jesus” completing his “Jesus of Nazareth” trilogy. The book was translated into 20 languages including English, French, Spanish and Polish”
usccb.org/about/leadership/holy-see/benedict-xvi/pope-benedict-xvi-timeline-2012-2013.cfm

Also,The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops states beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/compendium
  1. Why is there no contradiction between faith and science?
    159
    Though faith is above reason, there can never be a contradiction between faith and science because both originate in God. It is God himself who gives to us the light both of reason and of faith.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/compendium/index.cfm

So all that I have written prior to this message on this topic is in agreement with the USCCB. Thank you.
I am not sure what you are saying here.

Are you saying that the Holy Father Emeritus’ book,* Jesus of Nazareth,* is not Pope Benedict’s personal theological opinion, but rather is an exercise of the magisterium?

That is, you are saying that his book Jesus of Nazareth is de fide Catholic teaching?
 
  1. Why is there no contradiction between faith and science?
159
Though faith is above reason, there can never be a contradiction between faith and science because both originate in God. It is God himself who gives to us the light both of reason and of faith.
It is important to read all of* CCC* 159, in the actual Catechism. It is important to understand the provision which is usually omitted when the media speaks about faith and science; for example, referring only to the first sentence in CCC paragraph 159 below.

This is the key sentence. The bold emphasis is mine.
“Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God.”
Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 159
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/159.htm
**159 **Faith and science: “Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth.” “Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.”
 
“Faith is above Reason”

I perceive this to be true in two separate ways:

First in a sense of love and allegiance to God’s truth as provided by the Holy Spirit to the Church and most profoundly proclaimed in His Revelations in scripture is to be held higher than man’s discovery of the natural world we call science.

Second science begins to cease being part of the fullness of even just human knowledge when it divorces itself from Philosophy, as it seemingly attempts to run away from religion. The Christian Philosophy of stable laws of science was originally nurtured and grew from the the Christian philosophers where Philosophy is the highest point of the hierarchy of all human studies then empirical methods and mathematics are lower, but highly successful branches.

It is interesting that now that secularist and other philosophies gain prominence in the minds of scientists the paths of scientific progress begin to wander off into politically motivated directions. I state to be neutral that some wanderings are right and some left, I wish not to open any debate on these political directions, but alert all that they are at times misguided as they miss the guidance of Christian philosophy.
 
There are those on this thread who talk as if medieval Europe, before the separation of religion and state, before the separation of religion and science, before the Counter Reformation, before the Reformation, was the pinnacle of civilization, a golden age, a utopia, heaven on earth. Seems a bit doubtful.

But does the Church have nothing left to say? Can it only look back wistfully on a past that never was? Re-fight olde battles? Is Catholicism now just a synonym for nostalgia?

What message doth the Church have unto ye iPhone generation? 😃
 
There are those on this thread who talk as if medieval Europe, before the separation of religion and state, before the separation of religion and science, before the Counter Reformation, before the Reformation, was the pinnacle of civilization, a golden age, a utopia, heaven on earth. Seems a bit doubtful.

But does the Church have nothing left to say? Can it only look back wistfully on a past that never was? Re-fight olde battles? Is Catholicism now just a synonym for nostalgia?

What message doth the Church have unto ye iPhone generation? 😃
You are too funny! 😃 By the way, my husband was a Baptist then became a Catholic before he married me in the Church. He is a die hard Catholic! Sometimes I do think he is holier then me and lucky me, he looks like 007Sean Connery !😃 Of course their are plenty of Catholic scientists as noted within this topic that go to church and work.

Pope Francis has twitter. However, I would advise minors to avoid his twitter because some of the comments directed at him are profane.It breaks my heart.😦 I love Pope Francis. He is such a kind and loving man.
 
There are those on this thread who talk as if medieval Europe, before the separation of religion and state, before the separation of religion and science, before the Counter Reformation, before the Reformation, was the pinnacle of civilization, a golden age, a utopia, heaven on earth. Seems a bit doubtful.

But does the Church have nothing left to say? Can it only look back wistfully on a past that never was? Re-fight olde battles? Is Catholicism now just a synonym for nostalgia?

What message doth the Church have unto ye iPhone generation? 😃
You just don’t know what you are missing. Ignorance is bliss they say :D.

Linus2nd
 
There are those on this thread who talk as if medieval Europe, before the separation of religion and state, before the separation of religion and science, before the Counter Reformation, before the Reformation, was the pinnacle of civilization, a golden age, a utopia, heaven on earth. Seems a bit doubtful.

But does the Church have nothing left to say? Can it only look back wistfully on a past that never was? Re-fight olde battles? Is Catholicism now just a synonym for nostalgia?

What message doth the Church have unto ye iPhone generation? 😃
What message doth the Church have unto ye iPhone generation? 😃

It is time to get it right!
😃
 
Or one could say, " he ( or she 😃 ) who hesitates is lost 🤷.

Or, a dog barking up the wrong tree misses the squirrel:pl .

Didn’t Christ tell Peter to drop his net on the other side of the boat? Well then, take that as a word to the wise. If you want to catch the fish, make sure you drop your fly in the right pool. Quite a few here have cast their fly into muddy waters. How do they expect to catch a fish 🤷 ?

Linus2nd
 
Or one could say, " he ( or she 😃 ) who hesitates is lost 🤷.

Or, a dog barking up the wrong tree misses the squirrel:pl .

Didn’t Christ tell Peter to drop his net on the other side of the boat? Well then, take that as a word to the wise. If you want to catch the fish, make sure you drop your fly in the right pool. Quite a few here have cast their fly into muddy waters. How do they expect to catch a fish 🤷 ?

Linus2nd
Well, I don’t think Ken Miller casts a fly into muddy waters! 🙂

news.nd.edu/news/48401-kenneth-miller-laetare-address/

or

Pope Benedict XVI

zenit.org/en/articles/pope-to-pontifical-science-academy
 
I am not sure what you are saying here.

Are you saying that the Holy Father Emeritus’ book,* Jesus of Nazareth,* is not Pope Benedict’s personal theological opinion, but rather is an exercise of the magisterium?

That is, you are saying that his book Jesus of Nazareth is de fide Catholic teaching?
[SIGN]LogisticsBranch: could you please answer the above questions?[/SIGN]

Thanks.
 
You are too funny! 😃 By the way, my husband was a Baptist then became a Catholic before he married me in the Church. He is a die hard Catholic! Sometimes I do think he is holier then me and lucky me, he looks like 007Sean Connery !😃
All Baptists look like Sean Connery. Even the ladies. :cool:
Pope Francis has twitter.
Oh I hope he gets well soon. Is the twitter like cooties? Cooties is easily cured these days.

You’ve given me an idea for a movie. I’ve not been to Vatican City for a long time, but it’s so small that it probably now has wi-fi everywhere. In the movie, working title “Galileo’s Revenge”, Galileo is not the saintly lovable scamp he really was but the evil guy in this thread. He passes his magical powers down through the centuries to his descendents, the Scientisimos. They conjure up their Ethernet to bath the Vatican with their occult potencies. There is no escape from the demonic technology. And so the cardinals spend their days playing Angry Birds and the Pope has twitter. Galileo has won!
 
All Baptists look like Sean Connery. Even the ladies. :cool:

Oh I hope he gets well soon. Is the twitter like cooties? Cooties is easily cured these days.

You’ve given me an idea for a movie. I’ve not been to Vatican City for a long time, but it’s so small that it probably now has wi-fi everywhere. In the movie, working title “Galileo’s Revenge”, Galileo is not the saintly lovable scamp he really was but the evil guy in this thread. He passes his magical powers down through the centuries to his descendents, the Scientisimos. They conjure up their Ethernet to bath the Vatican with their occult potencies. There is no escape from the demonic technology. And so the cardinals spend their days playing Angry Birds and the Pope has twitter. Galileo has won!
 
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