Corporal Mortification?

[hazcompat]

Abandonment to Divine Providence Jean-Pierre de Caussade

LETTER VII.—A Holy Community. The happiness experienced by a Community of Poor Clares in practising abandonment to God.

My dear Sister,
I have made a discovery here that has given me more satisfaction than anything else could have done. In this town of Albi there is a convent of Poor Clares of the Great Reform, entirely separated from the world, who take no dowry and live on daily alms. The Superior is the most saintly person I have ever encountered in my life. I felt beforehand a great interior drawing to have a share in their holy intercourse, and nearly all of them have told me that they felt the same about me. I believe that God intends to bestow some great graces on me through their holy prayers. They lead a very interior life and practice abandonment to God with a remarkable perfection. When I assured them that on every occasion that presented itself I would try to procure alms for them, they seemed to
be quite scandalised and begged me to think only of their spiritual needs and to make them more detached and more holy by my instructions and prayers. You cannot imagine anything more wonderful than their union, candour, and simplicity. Impressed by their great austerities I asked them one day if such a hard life did not affect their health and shorten their lives. They replied that there were hardly ever any invalids amongst them, and that very few died young, most of them living to be over eighty. They added that fasting and mortification contributed to improve their health and to prolong life, which good cheer usually tended to shorten. I have never beheld such gaiety and holy joy anywhere else as among these good nuns. To please them I had to talk continually on spiritual subjects as they could not tolerate gossip and worldly news, but said “of what use is
all that to us”? I assure you, you would be edified and very glad on my account of this fortunate discovery, for, although I have often visited this place before, I knew the Community only by name, and looked on the nuns as dead to all; buried and quite out of sight. What a favour and consolation for me! I might add it is fitting also to praise and magnify God for the wonders He has worked in these souls.

peace

 

[JReducation]

Would this be recommended for a Catechumen – depending on the corporal punishment? I mean aside from the things we give up for Lent and other sacrifices. My concern is that the OP is a Catechumen. You are a member of a religious Order – there’s spiritual direction and years of learning before one gets to the point where one can discern the differences, as in your example of assigning a prayer schedule to a fellow Brother who would find that more difficult to stick to a prayer schedule than it would be if you told him to whip himself. You are in a position to “know.”

I think, depending on the OP’s definition of corporal punishment, that the question concerns me when it comes from a Catechumen. Merely the opinion of a lay person, but I would like to know if this is advisable when one is a Catechumen and has not yet been fully instructed into the Church?

God Bless.

I would not encourage it. That is because I want the “novice” to focus on the Catholic faith: doctrines, ,customs, history, laws, devotions and prayers and the become a habitual presence at Holy Mass. There is much more important matter for a novice int he Catholic faith. There will be time enough for these other ascetical practices.

Abandonment to Divine Providence Jean-Pierre de Caussade

LETTER VII.—A Holy Community. The happiness experienced by a Community of Poor Clares in practising abandonment to God.

My dear Sister,
I have made a discovery here that has given me more satisfaction than anything else could have done. In this town of Albi there is a convent of Poor Clares of the Great Reform, entirely separated from the world, who take no dowry and live on daily alms. The Superior is the most saintly person I have ever encountered in my life. I felt beforehand a great interior drawing to have a share in their holy intercourse, and nearly all of them have told me that they felt the same about me. I believe that God intends to bestow some great graces on me through their holy prayers. They lead a very interior life and practice abandonment to God with a remarkable perfection. When I assured them that on every occasion that presented itself I would try to procure alms for them, they seemed to
be quite scandalised and begged me to think only of their spiritual needs and to make them more detached and more holy by my instructions and prayers. You cannot imagine anything more wonderful than their union, candour, and simplicity. Impressed by their great austerities I asked them one day if such a hard life did not affect their health and shorten their lives. They replied that there were hardly ever any invalids amongst them, and that very few died young, most of them living to be over eighty. They added that fasting and mortification contributed to improve their health and to prolong life, which good cheer usually tended to shorten. I have never beheld such gaiety and holy joy anywhere else as among these good nuns. To please them I had to talk continually on spiritual subjects as they could not tolerate gossip and worldly news, but said “of what use is
all that to us”? I assure you, you would be edified and very glad on my account of this fortunate discovery, for, although I have often visited this place before, I knew the Community only by name, and looked on the nuns as dead to all; buried and quite out of sight. What a favour and consolation for me! I might add it is fitting also to praise and magnify God for the wonders He has worked in these souls.

peace

de Caussade is speaking about my sisters. What he is not mentioning in this letter is that our nuns are very disciplined women. Their biggest asceticism is their life of prayer and community. Francis built everything around prayer and fraternity. No sacrifice was to great, if it was done for the love of one’s brothers or sisters.

When our nuns engage in ascetical practices, they do fast and abstain. Some may use the Discipline, but the single most important act of mortification for a Franciscan is not fasting, abstinence, or the discipline. The single most important act of mortification for the Franciscan is community life.

Francis made it very clear that we are to love our brothers or sisters in community, more than we love our biological brothers and sisters. The more annoying they are, the more time we should spend with them and the closer we should get to them. To the Franciscan, obedience is part of that mortification. Superiors are not always easy to live with, especially if they’re saints. Saints are often very difficult people. Francis commanded that the brothers and sisters obeyed the superior like a corpse in the hands of a mortician.

The Poor Clares that impressed Fr. De Caussade so much were living this kind of mortification. If you think this is easy, try living with people whom you did not choose to live with and try to be blind to all of their annoying habits, neurotic behaviors, different cultures and personalities, and try to be outdo them in kindness when you feel like walking in the opposite direction.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The Poor Clares that impressed Fr. De Caussade so much were living this kind of mortification. If you think this is easy, try living with people whom you did not choose to live with and try to be blind to all of their annoying habits, neurotic behaviors, different cultures and personalities, and try to be outdo them in kindness when you feel like walking in the opposite direction.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I do not doubt that this is great mortification, indeed. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The Poor Clares that impressed Fr. De Caussade so much were living this kind of mortification. If you think this is easy, try living with people whom you did not choose to live with and try to be blind to all of their annoying habits, neurotic behaviors, different cultures and personalities, and try to be outdo them in kindness when you feel like walking in the opposite direction.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

And I’m having trouble dealing with my co-workers, traffic, people who go through the aisles “backwards” in the grocery store, and other simple things like that!

 

[theidler]

Good grief…I think I really gave the wrong impression here. I just wanted to know a little more about the concept, and if anyone practiced it in some way. That’s it.
I’ll go back to being a beginner then, goodness. Sorry for asking.

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

Good grief…I think I really gave the wrong impression here. I just wanted to know a little more about the concept, and if anyone practiced it in some way. That’s it.
I’ll go back to being a beginner then, goodness. Sorry for asking.

Don’t give up. I think your contribution to this subject have been good.

 

[Leegal]

I can help here. Dr. William James and several colleagues, Catholic and other, found that there are two kinds of people who engage in this type of practice.

1. There are people who are very mature in their faith. You can identify them, because they are rational, practical and they are not zealous about the practice. In simple words, if they can’t do this on a given day or if the superior or spiritual director tells them to stop, they don’t lose sleep over it. He explains that these people are truly focused on the goal, not on the practice itself. For the person of faith, we know that the goal is to conform to Christ in all things.
2. The other type of person is neurotic. This person feels the need to expiate himself. It’s almost like a need to get rid of something that’s eating away at them. When I first read this, I remembered how they bled people to get rid of ailments. Allegedly, as you bled, whatever ailed you would leave your body. It made sense to me that some people who place their faith on the mortification rather than on the Lord. Therefore, these folks would feel that they never have enough, because if truth be told, man will never be perfect. This kind of person should not be allowed to engage in such practices. The focus is in the wrong place and the faith is toxic to them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’m glad you clarified this because I can see it being misused without maturity, understanding and strict guidance. I liked the analogy to one who is ordered to stop and does stop because it pleases God and shows faith – not because it pleases the penitent to continue the practice. Thank you. And for your other posts.

God Bless.

 

[JReducation]

Good grief…I think I really gave the wrong impression here. I just wanted to know a little more about the concept, and if anyone practiced it in some way. That’s it.
I’ll go back to being a beginner then, goodness. Sorry for asking.

Don’t apologize. You triggered one of the most interesting and educational discussions that we’ve had on TC for a long time. Usually, we’re just fighting over the SSPX as if that’s all there was in life.

You introduced something refreshing and reminded us that the Christian life is like the ocean. It takes many drops of water to form one puddle, never mind an entire sea. But if we only pay attention to the one drop, at the expense of all the others, we miss the beauty of the ocean or worse. We may drown.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I do not doubt that this is great mortification, indeed. Thanks for the reminder.

And I’m having trouble dealing with my co-workers, traffic, people who go through the aisles “backwards” in the grocery store, and other simple things like that!

I can vouch for this. I once lived with a brother who was like the little donkey in Winnie the Pooh. What was his name?

It doesn’t matter. The point was that I would have found a hair shirt and chains more tolerable. The Rule of St. Francis said that in such a case, not only must you love him, you must seek every chance to be with him. You must never frown, look displeased, lose your patience or walk away. You must smile, be encouraging, and silence the inner voice of rebellion within you.

That last point is the real discipline, to silence the voice of rebellion.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I can vouch for this. I once lived with a brother who was like the little donkey in Winnie the Pooh. What was his name?

It doesn’t matter. The point was that I would have found a hair shirt and chains more tolerable. The Rule of St. Francis said that in such a case, not only must you love him, you must seek every chance to be with him. You must never frown, look displeased, lose your patience or walk away. You must smile, be encouraging, and silence the inner voice of rebellion within you.

That last point is the real discipline, to silence the voice of rebellion.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That would be Eeyore, the little depressed and depressing donkey with the nailed-on tail. “That’s OK, no one needs to bother about me, I’ll just wander over here by myself…” That’s not a real Eeyore quote but a sort of paraphrase…I can channel Eeyore very well…He is my alter ego, always negative and grumbling to himself about how neglected he is.

 

[TrueLight]

I can vouch for this. I once lived with a brother who was like the little donkey in Winnie the Pooh. What was his name?

It doesn’t matter. The point was that I would have found a hair shirt and chains more tolerable. The Rule of St. Francis said that in such a case, not only must you love him, you must seek every chance to be with him. You must never frown, look displeased, lose your patience or walk away. You must smile, be encouraging, and silence the inner voice of rebellion within you.

That last point is the real discipline, to silence the voice of rebellion.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I remember St Therese seeking out sisters she found hard to tolerate as well. One day she inspired me to seek out a fellow choir member who regularly got on my nerves, and as a result, I got to know her much better.

 

[JReducation]

I remember St Therese seeking out sisters she found hard to tolerate as well. One day she inspired me to seek out a fellow choir member who regularly got on my nerves, and as a result, I got to know her much better.

But that’s the goal of mortification, the perfection of charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hazcompat]

Hebrews 11:[31] By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with the unbelievers, receiving the spies with peace. [32] And what shall I yet say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, Barac, Samson, Jephthe, David, Samuel, and the prophets: [33] Who by faith conquered kingdoms, wrought justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, recovered strength from weakness, became valiant in battle, put to flight the armies of foreigners: [35] Women received their dead raised to life again. But others were racked, not accepting deliverance, that they might find a better resurrection.

[36] And others had trial of mockeries and stripes, moreover also of bands and prisons. [37] They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted: [38] Of whom the world was not worthy; wandering in deserts, in mountains, and in dens, and in caves of the earth.

peace

 

[hazcompat]

Saint Seraphim of Sarov

1. On Care of the Soul

We should have every concern for our soul, and should strengthen our body for this reason only, that it may assist in the strengthening of the soul.

Voluntarily to exhaust our body to the point that the spirit is exhausted is an unreasonable mortification, even if it is done to acquire virtue.

ekekraxa.blogspot.com/2010/01/st-seraphim-of-sarov-ten-sayings.html

peace

 

[JReducation]

Saint Seraphim of Sarov

1. On Care of the Soul

We should have every concern for our soul, and should strengthen our body for this reason only, that it may assist in the strengthening of the soul.

Voluntarily to exhaust our body to the point that the spirit is exhausted is an unreasonable mortification, even if it is done to acquire virtue.

ekekraxa.blogspot.com/2010/01/st-seraphim-of-sarov-ten-sayings.html

peace

Very well said.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MonjaFutura]

I don’t think it’s exactly bad but I think that meditating devoutly on our Lord’s Passion does your soul more good. If you did a mix of both, that would be a good idea. Little sacrifices here and there add up, too. Full out bodily harm does just as much good as little sacrifices and meditation on the passion. It’s the love and devotion that counts, mainly.

 

[jesusmylover]

Are there any catholics on here who practice some form of corporal mortification? If so, is it under a spiritual director’s guidance, what kind, etc. and what are your thoughts on the issue?

Hey,

I think it depend on your understanding about mortification. You have some people who make it until to have injuries. But we have to remember that our body it’s the holy spirit temple as said by St paul.

I make mortification since many years; it consist for example to sleep on the floor without anything. At the beginning it was so hard, but after a long time for me it’s normal, and to sleep today in a bed will be difficult for me. When i decided to make that, i spoked before with my spiritual director. he asked me why i wanted to make it, i just answered because i really love jesus and i wanted to share with with him his passion, but according to my capacities.
Every two weeks when i see my Spiritual Director, we talk about.

So i make mortification to be near Jesus.

 

[mommyof4]

Thank you for everyone who has contributed to this thread- I’ve really learned a lot!

 

[Petrus127]

“Never omit any of our duties because of the suffering or difficulty. This is the initial grade or degree, and it is absolutely necessary for all. One who neglects a serious obligation without any reason other than the inconvenience or slight difficulty involved commits a serious sin. But even in the matter of light obligation, it is necessary to perform our duties in spite of our natural repugnance for them. Some persons neglect the duties of their state in life and nevertheless ask permission of their confessors to practice certain penances and mortification of their own choosing. The exact fulfillment of all our duties and obligations according to our state in life is absolutely indispensable for the crucifixion of self.”

Fr Jordan Aumann, OP Spiritual Theology

See the full chapter here (this entire book is worth reading and re-reading):

domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st07.htm#tps

Other than that, as a priest and spiritual director, I would agree with those comments that recommend serious corporal mortifications only be practiced with the permission of a trusted spiritual director. Otherwise, fasting, prayer and almsgiving are the place to focus.

 

[JReducation]

“Never omit any of our duties because of the suffering or difficulty. This is the initial grade or degree, and it is absolutely necessary for all. One who neglects a serious obligation without any reason other than the inconvenience or slight difficulty involved commits a serious sin. But even in the matter of light obligation, it is necessary to perform our duties in spite of our natural repugnance for them. Some persons neglect the duties of their state in life and nevertheless ask permission of their confessors to practice certain penances and mortification of their own choosing. The exact fulfillment of all our duties and obligations according to our state in life is absolutely indispensable for the crucifixion of self.”

Fr Jordan Aumann, OP Spiritual Theology

See the full chapter here (this entire book is worth reading and re-reading):

domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st07.htm#tps

Other than that, as a priest and spiritual director, I would agree with those comments that recommend serious corporal mortifications only be practiced with the permission of a trusted spiritual director. Otherwise, fasting, prayer and almsgiving are the place to focus.

Fr. Jordan was one of my professors in Spiritual Theology. He was a very wise man when it came to this subject. Everything I know about it, I owe to him. Some people disagree with him, but I believe it’s because of a tendency to romanticize the saints. Also, we often forget that the saints are human beings who reach sanctity along a journey. Practices and penances that they may have thought appropriate at one point, become inappropriate at another point as they go deeper and deeper into the ascetical life.

Look at St. Francis of Assisi and Bl. Mother Teresa. Can anyone imagine two greater ascetics than these two? Both of them did exactly what Fr. Jordan says. They sacrificed by doing what they had to do, even when it was hard and repugnant. To do it with joy and love is not easy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF