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Serap
Guest
Big difference…cannot even compare.
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Serap
Guest
IMO if there is a mark, the line has been crossed. I have smacked my son’s bum maybe 5 times in total.
I am not a violent mother.
C
Cat
Guest
I think this thread is rather pointless because at this time in history in the United States, any parent who uses any kind of physical discipline technique with a child is risking losing that child to the DCFS. It’s not worth the risk, people!.
We spanked our children when they were little (1980s). We spanked for “wilful defiance,” not for “childish irresponsibility.” And we spanked when we were in control of our emotions and not angry. When a parent loses control, they should not spank. A spanking is all about parent being fully in control, not angry and out control.
A tantrum didn’t warrant a spanking because a tantrum is “childish irresponsibility.” Same for spilling something, breaking something, not being able to sit still for more than a few minutes, not being able to be quiet for more than a minute, burping loudly, talking loudly, being active, not being able to fall asleep, etc. etc… All of these behaviors are examples of what it means to be a child. They are developmental characteristics typical of a child. None of these behaviors warrants any kind of “punishment.” Training, yes–the child should be trained and guided to maturity, as they are ready to learn. E.g., even a very young child can “help” to wipe up the milk that he/she spills.
“Wilful defiance” happens when a child looks up at a parent (or other authority), shakes his or her little fist, and says wilfully, in full awareness of what they are saying, “NO! I will not do what you say, and you can’t make me.”
When a child commits an act of wilful defiance, a good parent must act swiftly and with strength. Spanking is one response. There are others, and as I said in my first paragraph, in this day and age in the United States, I would use another approach that wouldn’t carry any risk of my losing my child.
I think that too many parents in the U.S. don’t understand the importance of teaching a child to respect and obey the person who is in authority. As I see it, the biggest problem in the Catholic Church is with authority issues. Too many Catholics don’t respect the authority of their priests, their bishop, the Vatican, the Pople, or even the Lord Jesus. They pick and choose which portions of Christianity they want to go along with, and refuse to obey when it comes to issues that they disagree with.
It seems that too many parents refuse to take on an “authoritarian” role with their children because they have the idea that a child shouldn’t have to “obey an authority,” but rather, should learn to do things because they are “ready” to do them and because they “want” to do them. How sweet…and how sad.
Those parents who do not manage to train their children to respect authority are in for unbelievable heartbreak. When the child is not taught to respect and obey Mommy and Daddy, and Grandma and Grandpa, too, the child will grow up defying everyone else in the world, including their pastors, their teachers, their Scout leaders, their coaches, and eventually, the laws and the police who enforce those laws. Often the child who has not had their “will” tamed will also grow up to disrespect basic laws of good health and safety, and will end up doing harm to their body through various behaviors (e.g., drugs, alcohol, sex, reckless driving, etc.)
As I said, spanking is not the only way to train a child to have respect for authority. But whatever method you use, it had BETTER work, or you will suffer the consequences of raising a wilful adult.
A child should never be spanked or subjected to any form of corporal punishment beyond 5-6 years of age.
I think it’s too bad that spanking has become a “crime” in the United States that can result in the loss of your child(ren). Spanking is easy to administer, highly effective, and requires that a parent be in control of their own temper. When I was a child in the 1950s/1960s, most parents spanked naughty little children, and most parents knew the difference between naughtiness and childishness, and most parents knew the difference between spanking and beating. Reading a thread like this makes it obvious that most parents today haven’t a clue, which is another good reason for modern parents to avoid spanking. Also, reading a thread like this makes it obvious that parents no longer stick together and support each other, but are willing to turn on each other. Very scary.
I would say don’t spank in the year 2013–it’s just not worth taking a chance on losing your children to the State.
We spanked our children when they were little (1980s). We spanked for “wilful defiance,” not for “childish irresponsibility.” And we spanked when we were in control of our emotions and not angry. When a parent loses control, they should not spank. A spanking is all about parent being fully in control, not angry and out control.
A tantrum didn’t warrant a spanking because a tantrum is “childish irresponsibility.” Same for spilling something, breaking something, not being able to sit still for more than a few minutes, not being able to be quiet for more than a minute, burping loudly, talking loudly, being active, not being able to fall asleep, etc. etc… All of these behaviors are examples of what it means to be a child. They are developmental characteristics typical of a child. None of these behaviors warrants any kind of “punishment.” Training, yes–the child should be trained and guided to maturity, as they are ready to learn. E.g., even a very young child can “help” to wipe up the milk that he/she spills.
“Wilful defiance” happens when a child looks up at a parent (or other authority), shakes his or her little fist, and says wilfully, in full awareness of what they are saying, “NO! I will not do what you say, and you can’t make me.”
When a child commits an act of wilful defiance, a good parent must act swiftly and with strength. Spanking is one response. There are others, and as I said in my first paragraph, in this day and age in the United States, I would use another approach that wouldn’t carry any risk of my losing my child.
I think that too many parents in the U.S. don’t understand the importance of teaching a child to respect and obey the person who is in authority. As I see it, the biggest problem in the Catholic Church is with authority issues. Too many Catholics don’t respect the authority of their priests, their bishop, the Vatican, the Pople, or even the Lord Jesus. They pick and choose which portions of Christianity they want to go along with, and refuse to obey when it comes to issues that they disagree with.
It seems that too many parents refuse to take on an “authoritarian” role with their children because they have the idea that a child shouldn’t have to “obey an authority,” but rather, should learn to do things because they are “ready” to do them and because they “want” to do them. How sweet…and how sad.
Those parents who do not manage to train their children to respect authority are in for unbelievable heartbreak. When the child is not taught to respect and obey Mommy and Daddy, and Grandma and Grandpa, too, the child will grow up defying everyone else in the world, including their pastors, their teachers, their Scout leaders, their coaches, and eventually, the laws and the police who enforce those laws. Often the child who has not had their “will” tamed will also grow up to disrespect basic laws of good health and safety, and will end up doing harm to their body through various behaviors (e.g., drugs, alcohol, sex, reckless driving, etc.)
As I said, spanking is not the only way to train a child to have respect for authority. But whatever method you use, it had BETTER work, or you will suffer the consequences of raising a wilful adult.
A child should never be spanked or subjected to any form of corporal punishment beyond 5-6 years of age.
I think it’s too bad that spanking has become a “crime” in the United States that can result in the loss of your child(ren). Spanking is easy to administer, highly effective, and requires that a parent be in control of their own temper. When I was a child in the 1950s/1960s, most parents spanked naughty little children, and most parents knew the difference between naughtiness and childishness, and most parents knew the difference between spanking and beating. Reading a thread like this makes it obvious that most parents today haven’t a clue, which is another good reason for modern parents to avoid spanking. Also, reading a thread like this makes it obvious that parents no longer stick together and support each other, but are willing to turn on each other. Very scary.
I would say don’t spank in the year 2013–it’s just not worth taking a chance on losing your children to the State.
D
Debora123
Guest
Bruising? Obviously not. Redness isn’t necessarily a big deal. I know my skin gets red very easily. Even just sitting for a while will make my butt red.
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Serap
Guest
Cat, as usual an excellent post! Thanks for that. In Canada corporal punishment is legal as long as it is on a covered bum.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
There are a lot more ways to reward a child than with a piece of candy. Praise, attention, spending time on an activity they pick, giving them more responsibility, letting them help with making dinner (if that’s their thing), or picking out part of the menu for dinner.
Don’t discount reward as a tool in the parenting kit, just like spanking. But as I’ve said before each child is different and will be motivated by different things. If you’re paying attention to your child they will end up determining the punishment by showing you what works with them. No need to swat if time-outs work for your child, or if praising good behavior keeps them from getting out of line. One of my kids practically lived for parental approval (there are downsides to that long term, dependence on others approval), another really couldn’t have cared less.
If your kid doesn’t modify their behavior in order to avoid spankings, it isn’t working and you need to try something else. The concept is after a couple of spankings they decide they don’t like it and the better option is to be obedient than risk getting swatted. If they’re the kind of kid who doesn’t mind getting swatted, the answer isn’t to hit them harder or more often, the solution is to find that method that works.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
But you better believe the police can use force on you to comply. They are the agents in the state in enforcing the law and do use force on adults. No, not just anyone can hit anybody else, but then, not anybody can touch your kids either.
You as the parent are legally responsible and liable for the consequences of your child’s behavior. You can be sued or charged for negligent or criminal acts they carry out as minors. That is an acknowledgement that it is a parental duty to teach, educate and ensure your children’s compliance with legal and ethical standard of behavior.
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latin_rite
Guest
So is deprivation of liberty.
Are we talking about whipping or canning kids? Why do ppl have take it to the extreme?
“It can though”? So can depriving kids of their freedom. And i think you would find 99.9% of ppl who were smacked were only ever smacked. Not whipped. Not canned.
Judging by your post, i would say it was probably a case of you being over sensitive or over dramatic
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
I think, as a matter of charity if nothing else, that when a person tells you that their parents/guardians/etc. caused them deep physical and emotional wounds as a child, then you should probably just take that at face value.
It is not uncommon for abusers to use phrases such as “quit being oversensitive,” “man up”, etc. You will forgive me for being worried about you, as this shows a severe lack of empathy.
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
Having read through the rest of your post, it occurs to me that disobedience to authority is a subject that makes you quite angry. Is this correct?
If so: yet, you say that 1) you only hit your children when they defied authority (which makes you angry) and 2) you made it a point not to hit your children while angry.
Perhaps you can elaborate, but it would seem that you did hit your children while you were angry.
Supposing that there is an explanation for this perceived contradiction, I am still left to wonder this: what is the moral difference between striking someone while not angry and striking someone while angry?
Were we talking about adult-adult violence (I know we’re not, but just using an analogy), then we might be more concerned about the cold-blooded aggressor rather than the person who made a poor decision in the heat of the moment.
In the latter example, we’re talking about someone who did something wrong, who sinned and should repent, but at the very least we still have a person who is capable of empathy, of relating to the pain of others. In the former example, we may be looking at sociopathic behavior, meaning that person may be a greater danger to others because they cannot relate to their pain.
Tank Man
Rosa Parks
Martin Luther King, Jr.
William Lloyd Garrison
George Washington
Gandhi
Jesus Christ
Some of my favorite willfully disobedient people.
In contrast, I would say don’t spank in the year 2013 because you are violating a very sacred trust as a parent - the one requiring you to protect your children from physical and emotional harm, to the extent that it is possible. Or, at the very least, not inflict needless harm.
It is true that many children turn out fine, despite being hit by the people that are supposed to love them. Let us not assume that correlation = causation.
K
kelvinf
Guest
In society, there are parents who do all sorts of things. There are parents who actually abuse their children physically, emotionally, sexually etc. There are parents who have even killed their children.
There are bad parents in society whether people spank or not. Nobody is denying that. But because bad parents do exist, does not automatically make parents who spank bad parents!
How people draw the line is up to them. Every person should know for themselves the redline.
A single spank could be worse than 5 spanks depending on the applied force in the different cases. So one can’t really make generalisations about spanking or about redlines.
P
pnewton
Guest
Like Deborah said, if you have to ask, do not try to parent, do not use spanking, or get professional advice.
As far as Gem’s extreme examples, I can give no answer other than to shake my head. I feel if I were to kiss my child I would be accused of rape, it is that absurd.
I must be hard for victims of real child abuse to see all this hoopla over spanking, emotional abuse from spanking, hurting the kids feelings. Everytime we expand the definition of a term, we water it down. In the case of something like abuse, any attempt to legally expand child abuse will do little except divert resources from those who are in true need of assistance.
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pnewton
Guest
Then don’t spank. I will not say your decision is horrible just because I do not agree. That would be uncharitable. We all have our own conscience to deal with. I wonder if spanking will be the next banned topic because we get too pushy with our opinions. Let us take this back to a Catholic perspective.
Can anyone show me anywhere that the Catholic Church condemns spanking? If not, then let’s be nice to each other when we do not agree and tone down the rhetoric.
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Serap
Guest
I agree and everyone here is against child abuse. I’d even go on a limb and say that everyone on this thread loves children and if they are a parent, they are a loving parent.
D
Debora123
Guest
yes
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Cat
Guest
I should have been more clear in my post.
Of course defiance of authority makes me angry. It is wrong to defy the person or organization who is in authority over you, unless they order you to do something sinful or wrong. Crime is committed by people who defy authority (the law). Schools become free-for-all cesspools when many of the students defy authority and refuse to obey the rules. Our churches become feel-good entertainment centers when the parishioners refuse to obey the Church authorities or the Bible.
Remember that Lucifer fell from heaven because he defied the Lord God’s authority and tried to become his own authority.
What I should have said in my post is that a parent who has lost control and is wildly expressing their anger through screaming, stomping, crying, shouting, shaking fists, red in the face, etc. should not spank. Spanking should be administered by a calm parent.
I don’t have a problem with getting angry with children and telling them that you are angry at them. It is very very very VERY important that children learn that their actions and words WILL have an effect on other people, and sometimes other people will get angry at them and sometimes other people will ACT on that anger and do something to hurt the person who made them angry. If a child has not learned this, they may put themselves in physical danger by doing something that makes a violent person angry.
When a child sees that something they say or do makes their parents angry, and the parents explain to the child that they are angry and WHY they are angry, then hopefully, the normal child will learn not to do that thing that makes their parents angry.
The parents should explain that they will select a painless or relatively pain-free punishment if their child insists on does the thing again, but that other people may hurt them badly or damage their lives.
E.g., if a child says something sassy, a gang member may shoot them over it, at least in our city. Another example would be that if a child says something sassy to a policeman, the policeman may arrest or detain them.)
One of the problems we are seeing in the United States is children who have no ability to empathize with others. They do not recognize that their actions have an effect on others. They do not realize that what they are saying or doing is hurting or even killing someone. There are children, yes, CHILDREN, who murder just because they want to know what it feels like and looks like to murder someone. No empathy at all.
It’s certainly likely that some of these children are born with a mental disorder. But I think that some of this (not the murders, but the milder forms of lack of empathy) is because parents never allow themselves to become angry and tell their children that they are angry because of something the child has done. I think that many children hear only “Good job, honey!” instead of, “What you are doing makes me so upset and angry, and it’s so wrong, and I will punish you if you ever do that again!”
But I repeat, a parent should not spank when they are emotional in their anger. They should wait until they have calmed down, and then administer the spanking.
Of course, a swat on the butt for running into the road is usually administered by a parent who is in a panic. That’s OK, IMO. A child needs to SEE how upset their parent is. In fact, I think when a child runs into the street, a parent should cry and keen and grab their child and give them that swat and then hug them–how else will the child see how awful it would be if they were to be run over by a truck? Somehow, a child needs to learn that it is never ever OK to run out into the street because it hurts Mommy and Daddy so badly that they can’t help but cry and scream.
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Cat
Guest
(continued from above)
But I will say that all of the people on your list were adults when the deliberately disobeyed the authorities. Children do not have the privilege of defying Mommy and Daddy or Grandma and Grandpa or teachers or priests/pastors or policemen or God because they lack the knowledge and wisdom to know whether their disobedience is justified.
Occasionally a child will and should disobey an authority–e.g., if a pervert tries to persuade them to perform a sinful act. But for the most part, a CHILD should obey, and ask questions later.
My younger daughter disobeyed once–we went to an AWANA meeting to see what it was like, and she refused to raise her arm in that “nazi” salute when the kids say their pledges. My daughter was only in 2nd grade at the time, but because of the way she was brought up, she recognized that this looked like some kind of “worship” of something other than God, and she asked me about it afterward. I praised her for it. She wasn’t wilfully defying authority, but only refusing to do something that she considered sinful.
I’m not sure what some of these paragraphs mean.
But I will say that all of the people on your list were adults when the deliberately disobeyed the authorities. Children do not have the privilege of defying Mommy and Daddy or Grandma and Grandpa or teachers or priests/pastors or policemen or God because they lack the knowledge and wisdom to know whether their disobedience is justified.
Occasionally a child will and should disobey an authority–e.g., if a pervert tries to persuade them to perform a sinful act. But for the most part, a CHILD should obey, and ask questions later.
My younger daughter disobeyed once–we went to an AWANA meeting to see what it was like, and she refused to raise her arm in that “nazi” salute when the kids say their pledges. My daughter was only in 2nd grade at the time, but because of the way she was brought up, she recognized that this looked like some kind of “worship” of something other than God, and she asked me about it afterward. I praised her for it. She wasn’t wilfully defying authority, but only refusing to do something that she considered sinful.
I think you SHOULD assume that correlation. Many of us are fat today because we refuse to endure a little pain for the sake of the greater good. If a child is learning how to obey and be good through training methods other than spanking, that’s wonderful. But for some children, these “soft and gentle” methods DO NOT WORK. To deprive a child of the small pain of a spanking is setting him or her up for greater pain and possible death in the future. The child who does not learn to obey and be good could end up losing their soul.
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28562
Guest
It’s different for each child and it should be up to parents to decide for themselves, not have someone else decide for them.
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28562
Guest
Then a family member should have stepped in and told them they were going too far. I’m sorry they didn’t, but I shouldn’t be punished for your parents’ crimes.
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