Corporate ends

[Boyk]

Is there any end to the US capitalistic ideology?
Recently we had Sears and K-Mart merge. In say, 100 years from now will there be one or two major corporations who control everything?
Does anyone know of any Catholic teachings from The Holy See that forwarn the problems capitalism can create?
Communism was condemned due to its social atrocities but can Capitalism lead to a similar moral delema?

 

[Lance]

Both Sears and K-Mart were in trouble. With the merger I think we now have 1 company in trouble rather than 2. Wal-Mart is now cleaning everyone’s clock in retail. Sears, J. C. Penny and Wards came in and took over from the local department stores, K-Mart took over from them and now Wal-Mart. Someone will figure out how to play the game better than Wal-Mart and take over from them. The same thing goes on all the time in all sectors of the economy. Capitalism is not perfect but it is head and shoulder above any other economic system we have come up with. You asked, “Is there any end to the US capitalistic ideology?” I hope not. My retirement depends on my investments in the stock market.

 

[Lisa_N]

This is simply the evolution of the industry. Think of how many American car companies were in business years ago? Now we’re down to three. That’s OK. Because of the global economy, we have plenty of choice and in fact it was the competition of foreign cars that got our car companies to be more responsive to consumer demands. Competition is a GOOD THING. If someone can provide a good product for a lower price, they will survive and the companies that don’t change with the times will die off.

Think of the new businesses that have come into existence. When I was a kid there was no such thing as Home Depot, Lowes, Bed Bath and Beyond, etc. These are companies that have come in and taken bits and pieces of the market that Sears for example, used to have.

If a business doesn’t adapt it dies. That’s not a bad thing. Why would we want to prop up inefficient, ineffective businesses? Further we in a America can vote with our feet. I personally detest Walmart and I will not shop there even if prices are lower. But there are plenty of people who care about price first and they will go to Walmart even if it’s known to be a predatory business. So be it. It’s a free country and I’d not have it any other way.

Lisa N

 

[Brendan]

That merger is a great thing from a Catholic perspective. As Lance mentioned, both companies were in trouble financially and this merger helps strenghen both.

Boyk, would you really have wanted those companies to fold and put their employees out of work. Is that Christian??

Or what would you have suggested to keep them from closing?

 

[buffalo]

Not to worry. (Some would claim we already have this major corporation in the form of the Federal Government)

usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oecon/chap4.htm
Fully 99 percent of all independent enterprises in the country employ fewer than 500 people. These small enterprises account for 52 percent of all U.S. workers, according to the U.S. Small Business Administration (SBA). Some 19.6 million Americans work for companies employing fewer than 20 workers, 18.4 million work for firms employing between 20 and 99 workers, and 14.6 million work for firms with 100 to 499 workers. By contrast, 47.7 million Americans work for firms with 500 or more employees.

Small businesses are a continuing source of dynamism for the American economy. They produced three-fourths of the economy’s new jobs between 1990 and 1995, an even larger contribution to employment growth than they made in the 1980s. They also represent an entry point into the economy for new groups. Women, for instance, participate heavily in small businesses. The number of female-owned businesses climbed by 89 percent, to an estimated 8.1 million, between 1987 and 1997, and women-owned sole proprietorships were expected to reach 35 percent of all such ventures by the year 2000. Small firms also tend to hire a greater number of older workers and people who prefer to work part-time.

 

[Brad]

Lisa N:

If a business doesn’t adapt it dies. That’s not a bad thing. Why would we want to prop up inefficient, ineffective businesses? Further we in a America can vote with our feet. I personally detest Walmart and I will not shop there even if prices are lower. But there are plenty of people who care about price first and they will go to Walmart even if it’s known to be a predatory business. So be it. It’s a free country and I’d not have it any other way.

Lisa N

I’m not a big fan of Walmart either personally but what do you mean by predatory business? Does this have something to do with the Walmart protest group that follows them around?

 

[Timidity]

Lance:

You asked, “Is there any end to the US capitalistic ideology?” I hope not. My retirement depends on my investments in the stock market.

Isn’t that proof that we’re evolving towards Marxist communism?

Marx said that capitalism would evolve into communism. It seems that in this day and age the people really do own the means of production. Everytime I see a commercial about the “owner-operators of United Airlines.” Everytime time someone talks about the stocks in their 401-K. Everytime employers talks about stock options and incentives for employees.

It is evolving.

 

[space_ghost]

Greed will get ya!

 

[Marie]

space ghost:

Greed will get ya!

If stupidity doesn’t take them down first.

 

[wabrams]

There nothing wrong with a little bit of greed, but when it consumes a company or an individual, then you have problems. I think capitalism is brillant and last many more years.

 

[Lisa_N]

Brad:

I’m not a big fan of Walmart either personally but what do you mean by predatory business? Does this have something to do with the Walmart protest group that follows them around?

No, I have several business associates who say they are EXTREMELY difficult to deal with. One man who owns a nursery was approached by Walmart to supply bedding plants. Being a smart Scotsman he went to the store and looked around at their garden center. He said plants were not being cared for, dry, in the sun and dying. Well it wouldn’t be a problem but Walmart wanted HIM to take all the risk. IOW he’d bring 100 plants and then at the end of the week he’d be paid for what sold. He’d have to “eat” all the plants that didn’t sell. He said no way, because they weren’t taking care of the plants. So he negotiated a different deal but said they are SLOW to pay and after one season he said he wouldn’t ever do business with them again. If you are a small businessman you have no leverage and that’s all they understand. My friend said he had to call numerous times to get paid at all and it took 90 days. This story was repeated by several other small businessmen trying to do business with Walmart. So I decided if they are going to be that way I’ll not do business there.

On principle, I don’t like that they move into small towns and kill off all the “mom and pop” businesses. OTOH it’s competition and you can’t STOP them. They are just the 10000 lb gorilla and they do have the practice of moving into small communities where they can undercut the locals. Again my theory is that people vote with their feet. I try to buy all of my plants from local nurserymen for example. We have very active Farmer’s Markets and I patronize them as well. The smaller businesses can compete with better service and specialty niches. I am sure Walmart won’t go away but they won’t get my dollars.

Lisa N

 

[Lisa_N]

Timidity:

Isn’t that proof that we’re evolving towards Marxist communism?

Marx said that capitalism would evolve into communism. It seems that in this day and age the people really do own the means of production. Everytime I see a commercial about the “owner-operators of United Airlines.” Everytime time someone talks about the stocks in their 401-K. Everytime employers talks about stock options and incentives for employees.

It is evolving.

Except in Marxist communism the PEOPLE OWNED NOTHING. They didn’t own the means of production, they didn’t own property, they owned the clothes ont heir backs. And that was by design. The central state actually OWNED everything that was euphamistically deemed “The People’s Factory” or whatever.

I think it’s great that the PEOPLE actually do own things in this country. It’s what makes America great.

Lisa N

 

[Brad]

Lisa N:

No, I have several business associates who say they are EXTREMELY difficult to deal with. One man who owns a nursery was approached by Walmart to supply bedding plants. Being a smart Scotsman he went to the store and looked around at their garden center. He said plants were not being cared for, dry, in the sun and dying. Well it wouldn’t be a problem but Walmart wanted HIM to take all the risk. IOW he’d bring 100 plants and then at the end of the week he’d be paid for what sold. He’d have to “eat” all the plants that didn’t sell. He said no way, because they weren’t taking care of the plants. So he negotiated a different deal but said they are SLOW to pay and after one season he said he wouldn’t ever do business with them again. If you are a small businessman you have no leverage and that’s all they understand. My friend said he had to call numerous times to get paid at all and it took 90 days. This story was repeated by several other small businessmen trying to do business with Walmart. So I decided if they are going to be that way I’ll not do business there.

On principle, I don’t like that they move into small towns and kill off all the “mom and pop” businesses. OTOH it’s competition and you can’t STOP them. They are just the 10000 lb gorilla and they do have the practice of moving into small communities where they can undercut the locals. Again my theory is that people vote with their feet. I try to buy all of my plants from local nurserymen for example. We have very active Farmer’s Markets and I patronize them as well. The smaller businesses can compete with better service and specialty niches. I am sure Walmart won’t go away but they won’t get my dollars.

Lisa N

I understand now - thank you for clarifying.

If it’s any consolation to the small business owners, the semi-big corporations also play by the rules of Wal-Mart. It’s either revamp your distribution system or they won’t sell your products. It’s a business strategy that has worked for them - they refuse to compromise on distribution - it’s where they make their money. I don’t really fault Wal-Mart - I might pick a different business strategy but it’s their choice. I can go somehwhere else and I do -but it’s mainly personal preference for me.

 

[Zoot]

Lisa N:

No, I have several business associates who say they are EXTREMELY difficult to deal with. One man who owns a nursery was approached by Walmart to supply bedding plants. Being a smart Scotsman he went to the store and looked around at their garden center. He said plants were not being cared for, dry, in the sun and dying. Well it wouldn’t be a problem but Walmart wanted HIM to take all the risk. IOW he’d bring 100 plants and then at the end of the week he’d be paid for what sold. He’d have to “eat” all the plants that didn’t sell. He said no way, because they weren’t taking care of the plants. So he negotiated a different deal but said they are SLOW to pay and after one season he said he wouldn’t ever do business with them again. If you are a small businessman you have no leverage and that’s all they understand. My friend said he had to call numerous times to get paid at all and it took 90 days. This story was repeated by several other small businessmen trying to do business with Walmart. So I decided if they are going to be that way I’ll not do business there.

On principle, I don’t like that they move into small towns and kill off all the “mom and pop” businesses. OTOH it’s competition and you can’t STOP them. They are just the 10000 lb gorilla and they do have the practice of moving into small communities where they can undercut the locals. Again my theory is that people vote with their feet. I try to buy all of my plants from local nurserymen for example. We have very active Farmer’s Markets and I patronize them as well. The smaller businesses can compete with better service and specialty niches. I am sure Walmart won’t go away but they won’t get my dollars.

Lisa N

Walmart isn’t killing off the Mom and Pop stores. The people do vote with their feet, and they are trampling Mom and Pop in their stampede to Walmart.

 

[Zoot]

Boyk:

Is there any end to the US capitalistic ideology?
Recently we had Sears and K-Mart merge. In say, 100 years from now will there be one or two major corporations who control everything?
Does anyone know of any Catholic teachings from The Holy See that forwarn the problems capitalism can create?
Communism was condemned due to its social atrocities but can Capitalism lead to a similar moral delema?

The same argument was being made 100 years ago. If you look at a list of the top 100 US companies 100 years ago, you will see very few names you recognize.

 

[Boyk]

Brendan:

Boyk, would you really have wanted those companies to fold and put their employees out of work. Is that Christian??

Or what would you have suggested to keep them from closing?

I am only looking toward the future of corporate America. I see a shift away from the family centered living toward career-centered. For example: People are working longer hrs and women are waiting longer to start their families.
I do believe the capitalistic system is the best system in the world thus far. I empowers the people allowing them to choose. It all comes down to selfishness and what corporations try to squeeze out of their employees to make a bigger profit. There is definitly corruption in corporate America and I pray the system will find a way to work itself out…

 

[Zoot]

Boyk:

I am only looking toward the future of corporate America. I see a shift away from the family centered living toward career-centered. For example: People are working longer hrs and women are waiting longer to start their families.
I do believe the capitalistic system is the best system in the world thus far. I empowers the people allowing them to choose. It all comes down to selfishness and what corporations try to squeeze out of their employees to make a bigger profit. There is definitly corruption in corporate America and I pray the system will find a way to work itself out…

If women are waiting longer to start families, it’s not because of corporate corruption.

 

[buffalo]

Boyk It all comes down to selfishness and what corporations try to squeeze out of their employees to make a bigger profit. There is definitly corruption in corporate America and I pray the system will find a way to work itself out...:

Remember, those of you who own stock are complicit as you are chasing these same profits.

To get a 20% return do you insist on the CEO making the company more profitable? If he fires 2,000 to achieve it what do you feel?

 

[Zoot]

buffalo:

Boyk It all comes down to selfishness and what corporations try to squeeze out of their employees to make a bigger profit. There is definitly corruption in corporate America and I pray the system will find a way to work itself out...:

Remember, those of you who own stock are complicit as you are chasing these same profits.

To get a 20% return do you insist on the CEO making the company more profitable? If he fires 2,000 to achieve it what do you feel?

If production, sales, inventory, market share, and a few other things remained the same, and he got rid of 2,000 employees, I’d say he deserves a handsome bonus.

 

[katherine2]

Some 19.6 million Americans work for companies employing fewer than 20 workers,

I know. My son works for three of them!!!

But seriously folks, the Church has a comprehensive social tradition. Justice and solidarity are cardinal virtues.

Employers must respect the rights of workers and consumers. Fundemental in Catholic Social teaching is the right of workers to organize trade unions. The Church teaches that the economy must be made to work for man, not man fo the economy. The economy must be structured so that jobs provide a living wage – which means a family wage. Workers have the right to rest and the right to protection when they become injured on the job (workers compensation) or too old to work (social security).

Walmart has immorally fought unions everywhere but in China where the phoney unions are dominated by the Communist Party.

The Church rejects both capitalism and Marxism. Her own programs often come under the title of Christian Democracy.