Corporate ends

[Brad]

katherine2:

I know. My son works for three of them!!!

But seriously folks, the Church has a comprehensive social tradition. Justice and solidarity are cardinal virtues.

Employers must respect the rights of workers and consumers. Fundemental in Catholic Social teaching is the right of workers to organize trade unions. The Church teaches that the economy must be made to work for man, not man fo the economy. The economy must be structured so that jobs provide a living wage – which means a family wage. Workers have the right to rest and the right to protection when they become injured on the job (workers compensation) or too old to work (social security).

Walmart has immorally fought unions everywhere but in China where the phoney unions are dominated by the Communist Party.

The Church rejects both capitalism and Marxism. Her own programs often come under the title of Christian Democracy.

You know, I agreed with everything you said until your last 2 paragraphs.

A company has the right to not want its employees unionized - this is not necessarily immoral - in fact, Walmart’s policy has been very open to all kinds of workers. A fair wage does not necessitate a union. The Church says workers should have the right to unionize - it does not say companies must welcome unions as part of their business. A great number of retail employees are part-time workers in which a union would be impractical.

The Church has not rejected capitalism anywhere that I know of. If you can show me where I’m wrong then please provide. However, you are right in Her rejection of Marxism but more specifically what has been condemned in various Church documents is socialism.

 

[Zoot]

katherine2:

I know. My son works for three of them!!!

But seriously folks, the Church has a comprehensive social tradition. Justice and solidarity are cardinal virtues.

Employers must respect the rights of workers and consumers. Fundemental in Catholic Social teaching is the right of workers to organize trade unions. The Church teaches that the economy must be made to work for man, not man fo the economy. The economy must be structured so that jobs provide a living wage – which means a family wage. Workers have the right to rest and the right to protection when they become injured on the job (workers compensation) or too old to work (social security).

Walmart has immorally fought unions everywhere but in China where the phoney unions are dominated by the Communist Party.

The Church rejects both capitalism and Marxism. Her own programs often come under the title of Christian Democracy.

Pick some location in the US and tell us what the living wage is. Tell us in dollars/hour for a forty hour week.

 

[leonardoboff]

Thank you Katherine2,

Until you came along there didn’t appear to be anyone who was aware of the great Catholic tradition of social teaching, condemning the overarching state of current US policy and predatory capitalism, (no surprise there then at least on this forum.)
So for the record: you could do worse than read, Centisimus Annus, Solicitudo Rei Socialis, Rerum Novarum, Mater et Magistra, Populorum at Progressio you’ll find them all on Zenit…and if you cant be bothered chew on this, all you supporters of the Patriot Act.

“Then there are other social forces and ideological movements which oppose Marxism by setting up systems of national security aimed at controlling the whole of society in a systematic way, in order to make Marxist infiltration impossible. By emphasising and increasing the power of the state, they wish to protect the people from communism, but in doing so they run the grave risk of destroying the freedom and values of the person,…”

John Paul II Centisimus Annus 1991

 

[JamesD]

leonardoboff:

“Then there are other social forces and ideological movements which oppose Marxism by setting up systems of national security aimed at controlling the whole of society in a systematic way, in order to make Marxist infiltration impossible. By emphasising and increasing the power of the state, they wish to protect the people from communism, but in doing so they run the grave risk of destroying the freedom and values of the person,…”

John Paul II Centisimus Annus 1991

Isn’t he speaking against fascism?

 

[leonardoboff]

If the cap fits…

 

[gilliam]

Boyk:

Is there any end to the US capitalistic ideology?
Recently we had Sears and K-Mart merge. In say, 100 years from now will there be one or two major corporations who control everything?
Does anyone know of any Catholic teachings from The Holy See that forwarn the problems capitalism can create?
Communism was condemned due to its social atrocities but can Capitalism lead to a similar moral delema?

I don’t think so. As long as people are free to start up their own innovative businesses, we will have competition.

And as long as large corporations find that they are too diversified, and spin off small companies from their base, we will have competition (e.g., Freescale)

 

[JamesD]

1. 
   *]Fascism
   • A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
     *]A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
     *]Oppressive, dictatorial control.
     Some comunist countries were considered fascist but often fascism was used to combat communism. Fascism has nothing at all to do with capitalism.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Timidity:

Isn’t that proof that we’re evolving towards Marxist communism?

Marx said that capitalism would evolve into communism. It seems that in this day and age the people really do own the means of production. Everytime I see a commercial about the “owner-operators of United Airlines.” Everytime time someone talks about the stocks in their 401-K. Everytime employers talks about stock options and incentives for employees.

It is evolving.

Not everything that takes on more and more features of a horse can be expected to evolve into a unicorn. Wall Street is a million miles from becoming Red Square.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

“Then there are other social forces and ideological movements which oppose Marxism by setting up systems of national security aimed at controlling the whole of society in a systematic way, in order to make Marxist infiltration impossible. By emphasising and increasing the power of the state, they wish to protect the people from communism, but in doing so they run the grave risk of destroying the freedom and values of the person,…”

John Paul II Centisimus Annus 1991

If there is an expert in the world on the realities and dangers posed by communism, fascism, secularism, humanism, capitalism, or practically any other modern “ism”, the Holy Father is it.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Brad:

A company has the right to not want its employees unionized - this is not necessarily immoral - in fact, Walmart’s policy has been very open to all kinds of workers. A fair wage does not necessitate a union. The Church says workers should have the right to unionize - it does not say companies must welcome unions as part of their business. A great number of retail employees are part-time workers in which a union would be impractical.

How is it possible that workers should have the right to unionize while companies at the same time have a right to thwart the exercise of that right? A company does have the duty, though, to treat its employees fairly, with or without a union to force them to do it.

I’m not certain why it is not practical for part-time workers to join a union. I was in a union which represented both full-time and seasonal workers… we managed.

Walmart undersells nearly every one of its competitors, yet reaps huge profits. They say they do that by way of innovative strategies with inventory, and I believe that is a key to their success. Still, I’d like to see their employees treated as well or better than anyone else’s… otherwise, the success of the Walton family is coming at least in part on the backs of their employees, and at the expense of competitors who treat theirs more fairly. For now, that alone seems reason for me to do business elsewhere.

If I judge Walmart unfairly, by all means give me the facts. I don’t think it is right to punish a business on account of an undeservedly bad reputation.

 

[Brad]

leonardoboff:

Thank you Katherine2,

Until you came along there didn’t appear to be anyone who was aware of the great Catholic tradition of social teaching, condemning the overarching state of current US policy and predatory capitalism, (no surprise there then at least on this forum.)
So for the record: you could do worse than read, Centisimus Annus, Solicitudo Rei Socialis, Rerum Novarum, Mater et Magistra, Populorum at Progressio you’ll find them all on Zenit…and if you cant be bothered chew on this, all you supporters of the Patriot Act.

“Then there are other social forces and ideological movements which oppose Marxism by setting up systems of national security aimed at controlling the whole of society in a systematic way, in order to make Marxist infiltration impossible. By emphasising and increasing the power of the state, they wish to protect the people from communism, but in doing so they run the grave risk of destroying the freedom and values of the person,…”

John Paul II Centisimus Annus 1991

Wrong. Give me a quote from any of these documents that outright condemns capitalism. I don’t want you interpretaton. I want a quote. I can give you at least 5 that outright condemn socialism in Rerun Novarum. Predatory capitalism is a term that you made up I suppose.

Or, if you prefer, give me a quote from a magisterial source that condemns US policy in general.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Brad:

The Church says workers should have the right to unionize - it does not say companies must welcome unions as part of their business.

Well the Archdiocese of Los Angeles certainly didn’t want a cemetery workers union and as I recall it (the union) was defeated at the time the issue played out in the media.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Brad:

Wrong. Give me a quote from any of these documents that outright condemns capitalism. I don’t want you interpretaton. I want a quote. I can give you at least 5 that outright condemn socialism in Rerun Novarum. Predatory capitalism is a term that you made up I suppose.

Or, if you prefer, give me a quote from a magisterial source that condemns US policy in general.

How about we just look it up in the catechism? By my reading, it comes out against the totalitarian and atheistic aspects of socialism and communism, and the materialistic, individualistic, and socially unjust aspects of capitalism. Here is an unbroken segment from the section on social justice in my CCC:

"Any system in which social relationships are determined entirely by economic factors is contrary to the nature of the human person and his acts.

"A theory that makes profit the exclusive norm and ultimate end of economic activity is morally unacceptable. The disordered desire for money cannot but produce perverse effects. It is one of the causes of the many conflicts which disturb the social order.

"A system that “subordinates the basic rights of individuals and of groups to the collective organization of production” is contrary to human dignity. Every practice that reduces persons to nothing more than a means of profit enslaves man, leads to idolizing money, and contributes to the spread of atheism. “You cannot serve both God and mammon.” [Boldface mine]

“The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modern times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.”

Having said that, I don’t see that K-Mart merging with Sears is inherently an evil development!

 

[katherine2]

blessings on my friend BLB and Leo!!!

Of course, if workers have a right (even a duty) to form unions, for Walmart to obstruct the free exercize of that right is sinful.

We are not talking about WalMart putting an article in the company newsletter outlining why they think unions are not a good idea. we are talking about people being fired for wanting a union, having their overtime taken away, captive audience meetings, and in some cases even violence.

 

[Lisa_N]

katherine2:

blessings on my friend BLB and Leo!!!

Of course, if workers have a right (even a duty) to form unions, for Walmart to obstruct the free exercize of that right is sinful.

We are not talking about WalMart putting an article in the company newsletter outlining why they think unions are not a good idea. we are talking about people being fired for wanting a union, having their overtime taken away, captive audience meetings, and in some cases even violence.

I’m certainly no fan of WalMart but I’ve never heard of any violence associated with union organizing activities. If that were happening wouldn’t the local union take action? Unions have lost favor and they are looking for new members. They have a powerful lobby, lots of attorneys and could face down WalMart if its conduct were egregious as you suggest.

I do recall hearing that WalMart was successfully sued for some kind of labor problem…maybe people working OT off the clock or something? A large corporation can be sued and successfully if people have a case.

BLB suggested WalMart’s profits are from inventory procedures but that can’t be the only reason. I suggest they are from strong arming suppliers, paying their bills slowly and paying their workers less. Perhaps because they move into small communities there is no competition? They can get people to work for them for less because there isn’t a Target or KMart across the street? Slavery has been against the law for a while so there must be some reason they are apparently able to pay less.

FWIW I saw a very interesting profile of WalMart, Sam’s Club and Costco. Costco was by far the best place to work with higher wages, better benefits and MUCH lower turnover. OTOH the “street” discounted Costco possibly due to their higher wage structure. IOW the shareholders make less if the employees are paid more. Made me so mad I had my broker buy some Costco for me

LIsa N

 

[fix]

"Exploitative Capitalism is sinful. Christian Capitalism is very commendable. Labor Unions are very commendable when the sole purpose is to enhance the dignity of the human person. With a prudent concern for the common good, unions remain a constructive factor of social order and solidarity with the main obligation of a man living in true dignity in which he was created for by God. The Church encourages the formation and just administration of such unions, the solidarity between human beings. In Economic Justice For All, the Pastoral Letter on Catholic Social Teaching on the U.S. Economy, regarding Working People and Labor Unions, the Pope gives evidence that labor has great dignity. The Church fully supports the rights of workers and the formations of labor unions. The experience of history teaches that labor organizations are an indispensable element of social life, especially in modern industrialized societies. The Church gives evidence of solidarity between human beings. Scripture gives evidence of this solidarity. "
catholic-legate.com/articles/labour.html

This is an article that supports labor unions. I certainly can see that unions can be a good thing. I, also, can see that unions and big business can both be used in an immoral way and often are. IMO, it is not only that unfettered capitalism can be a threat to human dignity, so can unions that abuse their reason for being.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Lisa N:

FWIW I saw a very interesting profile of WalMart, Sam’s Club and Costco. Costco was by far the best place to work with higher wages, better benefits and MUCH lower turnover. OTOH the “street” discounted Costco possibly due to their higher wage structure. IOW the shareholders make less if the employees are paid more. Made me so mad I had my broker buy some Costco for me

LIsa N

I’m glad to hear that… I love Costco. Of course, they take the advantage that Trader Joe’s does, which is if they can’t offer a good deal on something, they just don’t carry it.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

fix:

I, also, can see that unions and big business can both be used in an immoral way and often are. IMO, it is not only that unfettered capitalism can be a threat to human dignity, so can unions that abuse their reason for being.

Absolutely! That an organization has good stated intentions doesn’t make it moral-- it must actually operate in a moral way. One thing, though: being big isn’t immoral… it just confers the power (and sometimes the impersonal setting) to make immoral actions easier to fall prey to. Big businesses are also in a position to do philanthropy on a scale smaller ones can’t, and may be able to give their employees more humane treatment, because, for instance, giving them needed leave doesn’t have the same effect on their workforce.

CEOs and business managers who run moral large businesses that make a positive contribution to society in spite of the pressures and temptations to do otherwise carve out their own special grottos of sanctity, IMHO.

 

[fix]

BLB_Oregon:

Absolutely! That an organization has good stated intentions doesn’t make it moral-- it must actually operate in a moral way. One thing, though: being big isn’t immoral… it just confers the power (and sometimes the impersonal setting) to make immoral actions easier to fall prey to. Big businesses are also in a position to do philanthropy on a scale smaller ones can’t, and may be able to give their employees more humane treatment, because, for instance, giving them needed leave doesn’t have the same effect on their workforce.

CEOs and business managers who run moral large businesses that make a positive contribution to society in spite of the pressures and temptations to do otherwise carve out their own special grottos of sanctity, IMHO.

Very true. At this point in time I think many of us still have the false picture of this dichotomy of white shirted men with cigars laughing at all the little peasants eeking out living. It is a more complex issue. The Church is giving some excellent moral guidelines and much discussion about these issues is needed. It is not always a case of definite black and white like much of the moral law.

 

[puzzleannie]

Zoot:

Pick some location in the US and tell us what the living wage is. Tell us in dollars/hour for a forty hour week.

the bishops here in south Texas (some of the nation’s poorest counties) peg it at $7.00 and hour, and no parish workers are supposed to be paid less.