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RBushlow
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I think it’s a fair question. Of course we do have to realize that we can only plant the seed. Then we have to wait for the Holy Spirit to work on them.
Yours in Christ
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Yours in Christ
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
We become LIKE Jesus. We are united with God…we don’t become Gods in that we are separate “Gods”. Here’s a good example of how even the CCC can be taken out of context and used against the Church.But I thought we are like Jesus. The cathecism says we become Gods. We take on Christs nature. The spirit of Christ lives in me.So the written word was good enough for Jesus but its not good enough for me. Sorry but I disagree with you.
Notice, scripture was USEFUL to Jesus, not SUFFICIENT.
In Christ,
Nancy
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jimmy
Guest
I must have missread your post. I am sorry, I thought you were supporting sola scriptura at first. I am not a sola scriptura enthusiast.
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jimmy
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Actually they weren’t enough for Jesus. Jesus taught many things that weren’t taught in scripture, such as that you should never divorce your wif or husband. In the old testament it says that you must give your wife a decree or something like that. In the new testament he totally forbids it.The Written Word was enough for Jesus to fight off satan. If its good enough for Him its good enough for me.
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Corpus Cristi:
Peace
I have no problem with this discussion thread, it is a worthwhile discussion, however, I think the wording is inflammatory and sets the wrong tone for meaningful discussion… when fellow Catholics have to step up and defend our Protestant brothers and sisters against less than kind wording, we are wasting time we could more wisely use defending the Faith. I can understand the frustration, but it is more fruitful to be more charitable ie. respectful, especially when starting a new thread. Just my suggestion, not an attack. I agree with you, just think it could be worded better next time, so you dont’ have so many replies complaining about the tone of the question and more ppl answering the question…
Peace
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mtr01
Guest
…and lest we forget, the only scripture available to Jesus at that time was the Old Testament.We become LIKE Jesus. We are united with God…we don’t become Gods in that we are separate “Gods”. Here’s a good example of how even the CCC can be taken out of context and used against the Church.
Notice, scripture was USEFUL to Jesus, not SUFFICIENT.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Jesus was divine, the Word of God made flesh… he understood much more than Scripture, and just because he used the word of God to fight off satan doesn’t mean that was all he used… He was the begotten Son of God, I think he had more arsenal than the Word. He had the authority and power because he WAS the Word. HE understood Scripture in a way that no mere man before him understood it. He came to fulfill it, to teach it, to choose men to be His Apostles and teach it… Jesus said to "go out and teach all that I have taught you… not "hand them a Bible and let them decide for themselves. " I love Scripure, read it every day. I live by Scripture, I cherish it… but I respect Christ’s choice to designate Apostles to teach it and pass it on. I will not stray from Apostolic Sacred Tradition because it is the Tradition of Christ, and the Tradition Scripture *came out *of… Without it there would be no scripture and it has not changed for nearly 2,000 yrs, and NEVER conflicts Scripture. I find it frustrating that when a Catholic gives Scripture that clearly defends Catholic teachings, many protestants suddenly deny it or ignore it and find one, often obsure passage to refute it, ignoring a wealth of Scriptural quotes to interpret their chosen quote the way they see fit. Scripture without Traditon is simply UNBIBLICALThe Written Word was enough for Jesus to fight off satan. If its good enough for Him its good enough for me.
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mtr01
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Something else to consider is that the apostles also used teachings from our Lord which weren’t recorded in the Gospels. In Acts 20:35 Paul states "In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive." (NAB) [emphasis mine].
Nowhere in the Bible will you find Jesus saying these words, but Paul must have gotten them from somewhere…he certainly didn’t make them up. Obviously, we Catholics know the answer: Paul received this teaching through Sacred Tradition.
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CARose
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I think you meant to say, nowhere in the Gospels is it written that Jesus says… (oh, and didn’t Luke write Acts)
This particular teaching is originally taught in scripture in Sirach 4: 31 “Let not your hand be open to receive and clenched when it is time to give.”
But I think this simple example of Luke’s teaching is an excellent opportunity for us to consider the question of Sola Scriptura. Christ said something, we know this to be true because the Bible tells us so. Catholics and Protestants can all agree on this. If the bible says it, it must be true.
ALL scripture is profitable for teaching reproof, etc (2 Tim, 3:16), and yet we must not self interpret, for the Holy Spirit is necessary (2 Peter 1:20-21). Shibboleth, this second quotation seems to me a case against Sola Scriptura, for if we are not to self interpret, than how do we know for certain if the Holy Spirit is guiding? Are we each infallible, as long as we request the assistance of the Holy Spirit? Have you never been present when two apparently Holy, God Fearing individuals have disagreed as to what a particular passage meant, or what passage to apply to a given circumstance and question for how to proceed in life?
I am humble enough to accept that as much as I love God, and I assure you, I Love Him greatly and accept Him wholeheartedly as my personal Lord and Savior, I also acknowledge that I am merely a mortal human being. Even as I marvel at the Truth that we have been created in His image and I stand in awe of the knowledge that we, through our baptism, are adopted heirs of His, and members of his family, I know that I am not God, nor would I deign to be seen as a God (help here, I know there is a new Testament passage that quotes that Jesus did not deign to be seen as God, before his death and resurrection, even though he was the Only Son of God).
As much as I love God, accept God, pray to God, follow God, I AM NOT GOD, therefore, I must and do accept my need to be humble before God, to accept authority, as even Christ accepted authority when he returned to Nazareth with Mary and Joseph when he was a 12 year old boy, found in the Temple.
I accept that I need to be open to the Holy Spirit in others, even though I know that through my baptism the Holy Spirit dwells within me.
I know that I am capable of error, even as I strive for the Truth. I have prayed to do right and have found myself doing wrong, just as Paul himself did. And I pray that I too can finish the race with my eye on the goal.
Oh and one simple request. Please guys, remember to teach with Love, lest we all come across sounding like a Gong.
Ah yes, and getting back to the point Luke was making. He shares with us a quote of Christ’s that we’ve not heard previously in the Gospels (where we typically turn to hear the Good News of Christ’s words). Luke shares with us the the true, more complete meaning of Sirach 4:31, as taught by Christ. Would you immediately understand “Let not … and …” to be the same as “It is better to … than to …”? Here we have an excellent example of how a teaching of Christ’s is clarified for later generations by those who have followed.
Christ created his Church (not his churches) and it is this church which is the Pillar and Bulwarks (or foundation) of his Truth. Bulwarks means protective wall. Foundation, well you know what a foundation is. It is stands beneath all that comes after when creating a structure. The strength of the foundation determines the worthiness of the building to withstand the tests of time. Certainly 2000 years of infallible teaching are quite a testament to the ability of Christ to follow in Joseph’s footsteps as an incredible carpenter. He definitely qualifies as an architect extraordinaire.
May the Lord be with you all,
CARose
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jmm08
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See my posts #38, #24 and #9 above.jmm08:
But I thought we are like Jesus. The cathecism says we become Gods. We take on Christs nature. The spirit of Christ lives in me.So the written word was good enough for Jesus but its not good enough for me. Sorry but I disagree with you.
Were you like Jesus before you were catechized and confirmed or afterwards? Did you become catechized by only reading the Bible? Or did you also need to read some of the Catechism? Or were you instructed by instructors? And who placed those instructors over you?
SPOKENWORD: You brought up catechism, not me. So doesn’t your initial need for catechism in itself defeat Sola Scriptura?
When you disagree with me, which argument do you disagree with? I was trying to provide scripture to support Sola Scriptura, but at the same time I do reject it.
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1962Missal
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homer said:
Homer, when you hold the Bible in your hand, you hold more than the inspired Scriptures, did you know that? No inspired writer left you the table of contents to your Bible. That table of contents, at least for the New Testament, was discerned, compiled and ratified by the Catholic Church. Your Bible contains the magisterial teachings of Church councils, and you are entirely dependent upon that Tradition.
Also, you do not address the fact that Scripture, itself, shows that the Written Word is a subset of the Word of God, not its entirety.
Justin
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Yes, that true. Consquently, there are some Christians who claim that scripture is clear that the OT alone is sufficient.
In Christ,
Nancy
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MariaG
Guest
There was an oral tradition alive and well during the time of Jesus. God’s word has never been understood to only be that which is written.
Mt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
No where is it found in the OT the words *“He shall be called a Nazarene.”, *yet these words were spoken by the prophets! It was and is accepted as God’s word that he shall be called a Nazarene. This prophecy was passed down in an oral tradition, not through written Scripture. Comments?
Mt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”
No where is it found in the OT the words *“He shall be called a Nazarene.”, *yet these words were spoken by the prophets! It was and is accepted as God’s word that he shall be called a Nazarene. This prophecy was passed down in an oral tradition, not through written Scripture. Comments?
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SPOKENWORD
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jmm08 said:
Afterwards, I became like Jesus after I totally submitted myself to the Lord. I thought I was born again as a catholic but all I was, was a partial birth born again catholic. I continued living a non christian life. I smoked ,gambled ,used foul language. I definatly was not Christlike by the way I lived. Sure I went to church every week but that didnt make me a christian. Christianity is about a relationship with our Lord and Savior. Religeon is about man trying to reach God.
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Catholic4aReasn
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I’m interested in the source of your deinitions of “christianity” and “religion”. Could you pass those along? Thanks!
Catholics ARE born again in baptism (Romans 6:3-4). However, as one matures one must respond to the grace that God has given him. Sounds like yours wasn’t a deficiency in being born again, but rather a deficiency in your cooperation with God’s grace. Wherever you may be, praise God that you are more fully cooperating with His grace now. It’s what we all must do.
It’s interesting how many people feel it necessary to leave the Catholic Church in order to cooperate with God’s grace and conversely, how many people know that it was a response to God’s grace that brought them into the Church.
In Christ,
Nancy
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1962Missal
Guest
He wasn’t exactly fighting off Satan. He was answering Satan’s temptations. What was Satan tempting Him to do? Reveal His identity. Jesus answered Satan by using the written Word because it didn’t require Him to reveal His own authority. In this instance, he answered as would have the Scribes, not as one possessing authority. This is not a proof-text for the sufficiency of Scripture, because Jesus did not beat Satan off with Scripture, but only confounded Satan’s attempts to discern who He was. Even Jesus’s dismissal of Satan wasn’t really an invocation of the power of Scripture. It was, in essence, Jesus saying, “I’m a good Jew; stop wasting your time.”The Written Word was enough for Jesus to fight off satan. If its good enough for Him its good enough for me.
Follow the exchange:
Justin
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RolandJS
Guest
Greeting fellow Christians!
Catholics and nonCatholics alike
Based on my reading (outside and inside discussion boards)…
Prima scriptura = scriptures first, then all other rules
SolA scriptura = Scripture is the only infallible rule, Scripture is not the only rule
SolO scriptura = definitely bad Latin and bad practice, solO is oft:
“me and the Bible.”
I’ve learned that trueblue Prima and Sola Scripture MUST include, for the average Christian (including ME), the Word of God in print (or audio) in the language best understood, a common-sense magisterium and a common-sense tradition. Bible references and resources are a must, consultations with learned Christians are a must – to build up one’s knowledge and understanding of one’s Belief Set, Doctrines and so on.
Since I mentioned Belief Set, mine is found here:
wcg.org/lit/aboutus/beliefs/default.htm
Our Catholic brethren and sistern definitely have much going for them concerning their trinity: Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture.
My in-home reading’s going to include strong Catholic material to increase my knowledge and understanding of a major portion of Christendom. Our fellow Protestant brethren and sistern probably would do better to admit having some sort of magisterium and tradition along with Scripture; my fellow non-align also would do better admitting same.
“Me and the Bible” is not going to cut it. For me, it needs to be God the Holy Spirit, Word of God (print or audio) in my language, common sense references and resources and consultations with fellow Christians who know and understand Faith lots better than I.
Should I start a new thread with this?
Roland
AmbassadorMan
Catholics and nonCatholics alike
Based on my reading (outside and inside discussion boards)…
Prima scriptura = scriptures first, then all other rules
SolA scriptura = Scripture is the only infallible rule, Scripture is not the only rule
SolO scriptura = definitely bad Latin and bad practice, solO is oft:
“me and the Bible.”
I’ve learned that trueblue Prima and Sola Scripture MUST include, for the average Christian (including ME), the Word of God in print (or audio) in the language best understood, a common-sense magisterium and a common-sense tradition. Bible references and resources are a must, consultations with learned Christians are a must – to build up one’s knowledge and understanding of one’s Belief Set, Doctrines and so on.
Since I mentioned Belief Set, mine is found here:
wcg.org/lit/aboutus/beliefs/default.htm
Our Catholic brethren and sistern definitely have much going for them concerning their trinity: Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture.
My in-home reading’s going to include strong Catholic material to increase my knowledge and understanding of a major portion of Christendom. Our fellow Protestant brethren and sistern probably would do better to admit having some sort of magisterium and tradition along with Scripture; my fellow non-align also would do better admitting same.
“Me and the Bible” is not going to cut it. For me, it needs to be God the Holy Spirit, Word of God (print or audio) in my language, common sense references and resources and consultations with fellow Christians who know and understand Faith lots better than I.
Should I start a new thread with this?
Roland
AmbassadorMan
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nan
Guest
I don’t understand…did the Catholic Church teach you that you should or make you smoke, gamble, and use foul language?
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1962Missal
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stollerusa:
Justin
Hiya, Roland! Spread the love, brother.Greeting fellow Christians!
Catholics and nonCatholics alike
Roland
AmbassadorMan
Justin
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RolandJS
Guest
How in the heaven are ya?!?!
Whatchathink about my prima, sola and solo?
I always welcome feedback from my fellow Christian brethern (and from sistern).
Roland
AmbassadorMan
Whatchathink about my prima, sola and solo?
I always welcome feedback from my fellow Christian brethern (and from sistern).
Roland
AmbassadorMan
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