Could Jack Chick be Right???

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Thanks for the reply Ralphinal,

The reason why we cannot proceed further is because…

1 - History <> Bible. To many, if its not in the Bible, its not worth pursuing.
2 - Role <> Office. I can be managing an office, but I’m not the manager but only a clerk.
3 - Someone has to be…is itself an assumption.
4 - No punishment for not doing <> Alright to expect/ask for it to be performed.
5 - Tradition never dictates religion, if it does God would have to don sunglasses.
6 - Succession does not exist when appointment itself cannot be proven to have started.

(<> means not equal to)

There are just too many ASSUMPTIONS and too much reliance on History and/or tradition.

When we read the Bible, it seems to tell us that we need ONLY God.

1 John 2:27 The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie; just as it has taught you, remain in Him.
.
He has taken one scripture out of context. When we add the verse before it what St John was saying makes perfect sense. He was warning the faithful about “deceivers” that would teach a new Gospel, or heresies.
1st John 2:26 “These things have I written to you, concerning them that seduce you. 27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.”

St John is saying to hold fast to the original Gospel we have been taught.
 
To thread participants:

First I want to apologize for not being here. I had a severe reaction to a medication and I have been very ill. I was only able to post messages on one thread during that time and it wasn’t this one or the other thread where I am the OP.

Second I want to announce that I have changed my username from “Caramel” to “LittleSoldier.” May “Caramel” rest in peace…

Several days ago I tried to post information about a second Jack Chick tract. I worked on it for about an hour and my computer deleted it. Everything. At that point I was too ill to be able to attempt it a second time.

I’m a little better now so I’m going to try (again!) but first I want to check the thread because it appears that it has gone way off-topic.
 
You’re kidding about that, aren’t you?? :eek:
I tried to word it in a way that was neutral. My personal opinion is that he IS NOT RIGHT!!

But I did want to discuss it because some people believe he is right. I’ve posted the errors I found in one Jack Chick tract and then tried to post errors from a second and then got sick.

I also pointed out the Jack Chick is a human being with a soul and is precious to God.

Just tryin’ to keep as level a playing field as I can…😉

P.S. In case anyone missed it, I am “Caramel” with a brand new user name, “LittleSoldier.”
 
Of the thousands who came out from Egypt, how many spoke with God? ONE - Moses.
Wrong. The correct answer is anyone who wanted to. What makes you think that only Moses spoke with God? I speak with God everyday and I would hope that you do, too. And no, I don’t mean I speak to God. I wouldn’t waste my time on prayer and reflection about God if I didn’t believe that He isn’t listening. Does He answer my questions? Absolutely. No doubt about it.
Of the thousands who sought to free Judaism from perceived corruption from the new Christians, how many spoke with Jesus? ONE - Paul.
Same answer as above.
Of the millions of Jews in Israel, how many were chosen as disciples?
Any Jew who wanted to be a disciple of Jesus became a disciple of Jesus.
And YOU expect communication with the Holy ONE when you can barely quote Scripture to defend your lies?
Why shouldn’t anyone expect communication with the Holy ONE? What does it matter if a person can quote scripture? Some people have tons of time with which to study scripture. Some people don’t. Do you think that only “perfect” or “almost perfect” people can communicate with God? That would mean that .0000000001 person in the world would be able to do so.
Not that it should be done, but incoherent lies that bears no support from holy scripture only brings the self professed religious person to ruin.
I haven’t seen any incoherent “lies” yet. But not everything is in the Bible. Where does the Bible say that we must only use what is in the Bible? What were people supposed to rely on before the Bible appeared? Jesus didn’t personally hand over a text with holy scripture to His disciples.
 
Jack Chick is right. 👍
Thank you!!

Would you please expand on your reply? Could you explain why Jack Chick is right? Do you believe he is right about everything that he puts into his tracts?

I have some more questions. Did you, personally, find God through the use of these tracts? Were they instrumental in your coming to believe in Jesus? Do you use these tracts when you speak with people about Jesus?
 
Originally Posted by Irish_Catholic forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Tell me Moslacked:

If Christians don’t need a teacher, then why are there thousands of protestants denominations that teach conflicting contradictory doctrines? If, as you said in the other thread, God communicates directly to disciples, then why all the doctrinal chaos among you guys? Is the Father asleep at the wheel? Did the Holy Spirit take a 500-year vacation? Whats up with that?
Of the thousands who came out from Egypt, how many spoke with God? ONE - Moses.
Of the thousands who sought to free Judaism from perceived corruption from the new Christians, how many spoke with Jesus? ONE - Paul.
Of the millions of Jews in Israel, how many were chosen as disciples?

And YOU expect communication with the Holy ONE when you can barely quote Scripture to defend your lies? Not that it should be done, but incoherent lies that bears no support from holy scripture only brings the self professed religious person to ruin.
You side-stepped the question:

If Christians don’t need a teacher, then why are there thousands of protestants denominations that teach conflicting contradictory doctrines? Why doesn’t God keep them all on the same page?
 
You are sorely mistaken. The reason for the different text size is that THE TRUTH (see?) often needs a little HELP coming from the mouths (or keyboards) of its keepers as it cannot stand on its own.

:tsktsk:
So that we who obviously can’t discover Truth on our own will SEE the extremely large words and therefore it will become CLEAR to us…

My my. :tsktsk::tsktsk:
 
Caramel, you did not tell us why the above is wrong, you merely quoted. Ralph’s answer in post #157 would be considered an objective view of the issues. And that is how we should be discussing, not giving mere ‘opinions’ and ‘views’.
Fine. So why did you ask for my opinion? 🤷

P.S. I am “Caramel” with a new username “LittleSoldier.”
 
To be honest with you…I didn’t take him as the gospel but used some of his booklets that were just scripture…I did find that people more more readily accept the cartoon format…You know whether people believe it or not He’s still there…He’s not meant to be sensed by out taste buds…
We live by faith…Sometimes we move be beyond believing as a child and try to figure to much out…peace to you…Kim
What you brought up is part of something that I have wondered about. By the following I’m not saying you have done what I am going to describe nor am I trying in any way to attack you or anyone else (especially you because I believe you are a true Christian 🙂 , not that I would be attacking nonChristians, sheesh we have to be so careful about how we word things today!! )

Jack Chick tracts have obviously been used quite a lot. I’ve found them on my front porch. I may be wrong but I think only one poster on this thread has stated that he/she was or is not aware of who Jack Chick is. So the tracts are around and people have read them and some people have used them.

I believe that there are tracts published by Jack Chick that contain errors about the Catholic Faith. I also believe that some people have found God using Jack Chick tracts as a means. Maybe some of these people have seen a Jack Chick tract and they were interested enough to check out the facts, discover the errors, and then go on to become Christians and maybe have even become practicing Catholics.

**So, is it OK to use a tract full of errors as a tool to lead one to discovering the Truth? Is it even possible to do this? Do the ends justify the means? **

I honestly don’t know and I am very interested in anyone’s thoughts.

P.S. I used to be “Caramel” but now I am “LittleSoldier.”
 
I will try to help here. I numbered the points so that I can better answer.
  1. The Bible never mentions alter calls, bathrooms, or church socials, either. Monks and nuns are people who dedicate their lives to prayer or service to the church. The Pope is a bishop. Bishops are in the Bible.
  2. This was never Church teaching. Christ is not re-crucified. Christ is not “pulled” from heaven or anywhere else. There is no magic involved. The mass is the fulfillment of Christ’s command at the Last Supper.
  3. Again, this is just junk. Catholics do not worship anything like it is God or else, we are to worship God and God alone. Catholics do believe (based on the Bible) that Jesus is present in what looks like bread and wine, but if we are correct, and the bible says we are, we are worshiping God.
  4. Mass is not sacrificing Jesus again. I do not know where he gets his info. Jesus was sacrificed once and for all.
  5. I am not sure what he was saying, so I will not respond. The Church does consider all faithful on earth to be the Church Militant, as we are in a fight for our souls.
  6. First, there are seven sacraments, not six. Second, Confirmation, per the Bible, and baptism are the incoming of the Holy Spirit into the faithful. To deny that is to deny the Bible.
  7. The Church has never said that the Pope is the highest and closest thing to God on earth. The Church does teach that it has never been in error on matters of faith and morals, but that is not what he is implying
  8. Perhaps. She could go to heaven or hell, too.
  9. Again, not sure what he is talking about
  10. That is incorrect. People are “released” from Purgatory when they are ready for heaven. Masses being said for them or anything else are not required.
  11. Again, not sure of the context
  12. Incorrect. The Church did not invent Purgatory. Purgatory was part of the Jewish faith of the early Church. We held on to it because the Bible supports its teaching
Thank you, Ralph!! The only thing I would like to add is that “Helen” could never receive all seven Sacraments as she is a woman. But of course there are seven Sacraments.
 
What you brought up is part of something that I have wondered about. By the following I’m not saying you have done what I am going to describe nor am I trying in any way to attack you or anyone else (especially you because I believe you are a true Christian 🙂 , not that I would be attacking nonChristians, sheesh we have to be so careful about how we word things today!! )

Jack Chick tracts have obviously been used quite a lot. I’ve found them on my front porch. I may be wrong but I think only one poster on this thread has stated that he/she was or is not aware of who Jack Chick is. So the tracts are around and people have read them and some people have used them.

I believe that there are tracts published by Jack Chick that contain errors about the Catholic Faith. I also believe that some people have found God using Jack Chick tracts as a means. Maybe some of these people have seen a Jack Chick tract and they were interested enough to check out the facts, discover the errors, and then go on to become Christians and maybe have even become practicing Catholics.

**So, is it OK to use a tract full of errors as a tool to lead one to discovering the Truth? Is it even possible to do this? Do the ends justify the means? **

I honestly don’t know and I am very interested in anyone’s thoughts.

P.S. I used to be “Caramel” but now I am “LittleSoldier.”
Is it Ok? If it was, Jesus would have used lies to tell the Truth. He did not.

The ends do NOT justify the means. Some things are always evil, even if you gain good from them
 
Ralph, ALL you need is the Spirit.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit & the Father will send Him in My Name & will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
  • It is the Spirit that bears witness.
    .
Then I have a question for you =). Was Jesus speaking to you or was he speaking to his apostles? If he was speaking to everybody why did Saint Paul had to answer questions and correct the Corinthians in his first set of letters. I shall give three scriptural quotes and bring them together at the end of the post.
I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree to what you say , and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose. For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries amoung you. I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Kephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? ( 1 Corinthians, 1: 10-13)
I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.(1 Corinthians 4: 14-17)
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by [the] Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come. (1 Corinthians, 11: 23-34)
Notice that in all three quotes, from different chapters of 1 Corinthians (quoted from the New American Bible if you need to check the text), Saint Paul, or Paul to those who refuse to use the title, talks about teaching, admonishing, instructing, and handing down what Christ has done, taught, and what it means. Sounds like the people at 1 Corinthians needed someone to teach them.

Look here at the first quote, Saint Paul speaks about being in agreement, of one mine and one purpose. He is talking about staying true to the proper teaching. How can I say this so certain? Because if everyone has one understanding and the next two quotes he tells them again what the proper teachings are. To understand that this is a repetition of previous teaching, noticed he said he has already “handed” and that he already “sent Timothy” who is his successor because he has more places to evangelize to.

And here at the second quote, Saint Paul calls himself their father, whom they do not have many but they certainly have more than one: “fathers”. He tells them to imitate himself since he imitates Christ. In other words he is saying *learn from me, I am your role model. *

Now the third and final quote is long, and I intended it to be so. The most important part is how he emphasizes the teaching of the Real Presence: “this is my body” “for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself”. This is very important and is the core of Catholic teaching at Mass. Now another important part is the communal meetings. Notice they come together to remember Christ’s life, death, and resurrection in the last paragraph. He talks about when they come together they eat. However, if they are not worthy to partake of the body of Christ, then they should eat at home before coming least they are hungry and bring judgment upon themselves for joining at the communal meal. And lastly, the start of the quote, Saint Paul reiterates for a third time in these few chapters of 1 Corinthians that he is passing on a teaching he received from the Lord, and that he will correct the less important matters when he returns to them.

This should show clearly the value of fathers in Christ and teachers of the faith. This should also show clearly some of the claims made by Jack Chick are unfounded.

[As an aside: The important matters mentioned in 1 Corinthians up to Chapter 12 includes the Real Presence, who should be celibate, who should not try to be celibate without God’s providence, sexual sins, under whose jurisdiction the various groups are, and that they do not bring claims and lawsuits (ie disputes) among each other. He sums up the last issue by reasserting to them that those those that are in keeping with the truth should judge their own group and worry not those that have committed apostasies-- they have fallen away and it is for God to Judge those groups. ]
 
**So, is it OK to use a tract full of errors as a tool to lead one to discovering the Truth? Is it even possible to do this? Do the ends justify the means? **
Nope, it is not okay. For we as Catholics are taught, or have access to, the full truth reviewed by Christ through the Scriptures and the teachings handed down through the Apostles. Because of this and the fact that we are not to use evil to bring about good. Note: if evil happens under no fault of our own and God brings good out of it that is great. An example is that you happen to throw away a Jack Chick track and someone found it, learn about Christ through the track, and later became Catholic after researching more about the early Church. But it is God working in this situation despite the evil. Now, if you happen to commit an evil and good came out of it. An example would be you decided to beat up someone unjustly and in the process they learn forgiveness and repentance. That is great that good came out of it, but you are still in need of confession for the evil (if it is a mortal sin).

To reiterate, nope you cannot use evil means, including lies, to bring about good, including Truth. It is still sinful. Particularly for Catholics who are explicitly taught so, or should have access to a Catechism or teachers to teach them so. For non-Catholics, it may or may not be a mortal sin because some people lack the truth; though God does give all man the natural law so they are rarely fullly innocence of spiritual crimes.
 
An example is that you happen to throw away a Jack Chick track and someone found it, learn about Christ through the track, and later became Catholic after researching more about the early Church.** But it is God working in this situation despite the evil.**
(emphasis added)

I like what you wrote here very much! Thank you!
 
Then I have a question for you =). Was Jesus speaking to you or was he speaking to his apostles? If he was speaking to everybody why did Saint Paul had to answer questions and correct the Corinthians in his first set of letters. I shall give three scriptural quotes and bring them together at the end of the post.

Notice that in all three quotes, from different chapters of 1 Corinthians (quoted from the New American Bible if you need to check the text), Saint Paul, or Paul to those who refuse to use the title, talks about teaching, admonishing, instructing, and handing down what Christ has done, taught, and what it means. Sounds like the people at 1 Corinthians needed someone to teach them.

Look here at the first quote, Saint Paul speaks about being in agreement, of one mine and one purpose. He is talking about staying true to the proper teaching. How can I say this so certain? Because if everyone has one understanding and the next two quotes he tells them again what the proper teachings are. To understand that this is a repetition of previous teaching, noticed he said he has already “handed” and that he already “sent Timothy” who is his successor because he has more places to evangelize to.

And here at the second quote, Saint Paul calls himself their father, whom they do not have many but they certainly have more than one: “fathers”. He tells them to imitate himself since he imitates Christ. In other words he is saying *learn from me, I am your role model. *

Now the third and final quote is long, and I intended it to be so. The most important part is how he emphasizes the teaching of the Real Presence: “this is my body” “for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself”. This is very important and is the core of Catholic teaching at Mass. Now another important part is the communal meetings. Notice they come together to remember Christ’s life, death, and resurrection in the last paragraph. He talks about when they come together they eat. However, if they are not worthy to partake of the body of Christ, then they should eat at home before coming least they are hungry and bring judgment upon themselves for joining at the communal meal. And lastly, the start of the quote, Saint Paul reiterates for a third time in these few chapters of 1 Corinthians that he is passing on a teaching he received from the Lord, and that he will correct the less important matters when he returns to them.

This should show clearly the value of fathers in Christ and teachers of the faith. This should also show clearly some of the claims made by Jack Chick are unfounded.

[As an aside: The important matters mentioned in 1 Corinthians up to Chapter 12 includes the Real Presence, who should be celibate, who should not try to be celibate without God’s providence, sexual sins, under whose jurisdiction the various groups are, and that they do not bring claims and lawsuits (ie disputes) among each other. He sums up the last issue by reasserting to them that those those that are in keeping with the truth should judge their own group and worry not those that have committed apostasies-- they have fallen away and it is for God to Judge those groups. ]
These people are CHASTISED…because of their sins.
 
For Mosacked and others having difficulty understanding Catholic teaching:

I was raised independent fundamentalist Baptist. I did not understand Catholicism until I realized that it the Holy Spirit working through the ancient Catholic Church that actually gave us our Bible. While it is true that the Holy Spirit works through all Christians, there is clearly an admonition in Scripture to respect the authority of church leaders. They have a special place, for Jesus chose the apostles and the apostles chose other leaders. The Holy Spirit works through these leaders as Jesus promised. The Catholic Church has never composed a dogma out of thin air, but they pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit. It has taken centuries for the leaders of the church to develop certain implications of scripture into Dogma. The Catholic Church really does not teach anything that is not implied in scripture, and they definitely do not teach anything that directly contradicts scripture, the Holy Spirit is their guide as they search the scripture, and carefully consider how the Holy Spirit has worked through the church in past centuries.

It is easy to take a verse out of context to impugn Catholicism. Please read a book entitled Catholic and Christian. This book will explain all those dogmas that are stumbling blocks for many Protestants. It is an easy and enjoyable read.
 
For Mosacked and others having difficulty understanding Catholic teaching:

I was raised independent fundamentalist Baptist. I did not understand Catholicism until I realized that it the Holy Spirit working through the ancient Catholic Church that actually gave us our Bible. While it is true that the Holy Spirit works through all Christians, there is clearly an admonition in Scripture to respect the authority of church leaders. They have a special place, for Jesus chose the apostles and the apostles chose other leaders. The Holy Spirit works through these leaders as Jesus promised. The Catholic Church has never composed a dogma out of thin air, but they pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit. It has taken centuries for the leaders of the church to develop certain implications of scripture into Dogma. The Catholic Church really does not teach anything that is not implied in scripture, and they definitely do not teach anything that directly contradicts scripture, the Holy Spirit is their guide as they search the scripture, and carefully consider how the Holy Spirit has worked through the church in past centuries.

It is easy to take a verse out of context to impugn Catholicism. Please read a book entitled Catholic and Christian. This book will explain all those dogmas that are stumbling blocks for many Protestants. It is an easy and enjoyable read.
Great post
 
For Mosacked and others having difficulty understanding Catholic teaching:

I was raised independent fundamentalist Baptist. I did not understand Catholicism until I realized that it the Holy Spirit working through the ancient Catholic Church that actually gave us our Bible. While it is true that the Holy Spirit works through all Christians, there is clearly an admonition in Scripture to respect the authority of church leaders. They have a special place, for Jesus chose the apostles and the apostles chose other leaders. The Holy Spirit works through these leaders as Jesus promised. The Catholic Church has never composed a dogma out of thin air, but they pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit. It has taken centuries for the leaders of the church to develop certain implications of scripture into Dogma. The Catholic Church really does not teach anything that is not implied in scripture, and they definitely do not teach anything that directly contradicts scripture, the Holy Spirit is their guide as they search the scripture, and carefully consider how the Holy Spirit has worked through the church in past centuries.

It is easy to take a verse out of context to impugn Catholicism. Please read a book entitled Catholic and Christian. This book will explain all those dogmas that are stumbling blocks for many Protestants. It is an easy and enjoyable read.
Thank you very much for your post. I don’t think I could ever have worded it nearly as well as you have!! Thank you!! :)🙂

Oh, I will also read the book!
 
According to Jimmy Akin, “What you are looking at may be the first known, recent photo of Jack T. Chick (left) to emerge on the Internet.”

read here: jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/the_face_of_chi.html

http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/jackchick.jpg
I’ve seen that photo before. Yes, I believe that is a photo of Jack Chick. The only other picture I have ever seen mentioned is his high school yearbook photo and I never got to see it.

Thank you!
 
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