Could Mary be getting a new title this year? [CNA]

[TCEL]

When I first heard about this years ago, it bothered me. Now, not so much. Again, it only seems fitting that if God saw fit to use man (Jesus) in his plan of redemption, it’s not a big deal for him to have included woman as well. I understand it doesn’t mean Mary is Jesus, or God. Woman did encourage man to cooperate in sin. She also cooperated with God (as man) to overthrow sin. Mary as the new Eve, that whole thing. I don’t know. Seems intuitive to me.

 

[Wesrock]

Is there really a good justification for raising the title of co-redemptrix from doctrine to dogma? I suppose it could emphasize the Church’s role (meaning all of us, too) as being co-redeemed in Christ.

I don’t know… it’d be nice if the Church could teach a doctrine without people rejecting it until it’s proclaimed dogma.

 

[Richca]

I am torn, I love our mother, and I want this title for her, but would this not alienate our Protestant brothers and sisters and provide more trouble for them coming back to the Catholic Church?

Of course I would never make a decision based on if it was a hard path or an easy path, but the question remains.

Ultimately I leave it up to God to decide, He knows what’s best. I follow whatever His Church decides, I hope that the answer is yes!!!

Well, our Blessed Lady either is or is not the co-redemptrix. And if she is as I believe this is the very truth, why hide the truth as if truth does harm to people? Hiding truth is not the way of Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; nor is it the way of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth. Hiding truth from our protestant brothers and sisters or anybody else in the world is not charity towards them or true ecumenism but a work of the Evil One, the father of lies. The very mission of the Church guided by the Spirit of truth is to proclaim the truth as this was the mission of Jesus Christ who said ‘For this I have come into the world to testify to the truth. And all who are on the side of truth listen to my voice.’ The fact is, Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer of the world, came into the world and became incarnated in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary because Mary freely assented and cooperated to God’s plan and will for the redemption of the human race. And God who is not outdone in generoisty has rewarded and raised her above all creatures, angelic or human. Our Blessed Lady is the Queen of heaven and earth and whoever does not want to acknowledge this, unless because of inculpable ignorance in this life, is not going to inherit the eternal kingdom of God.

As St. Irenaeus says, “Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: “Death through Eve, life through Mary.” (CCC#494).

The image on the front side of the miraculous medal which our Blessed Mother showed to St Catherine Laboure has Mary crushing the head of the ancient serpent fortold in Gen. 3:15. I believe in these times of the world we need our Blessed Mother more than ever to dispel and defeat the powers of darkness that are waging war on her offspring (Rev. 12: 17). As it was through Mary that Christ came the first time in lowliness and humility, so will it be through Mary for Christ’s second coming in all his glory (St Louis de Montfort).

Our Lady to sister Lucia from the third apparition of Mary at Fatima “continue to recite the Rosary every day to our Lady of the Rosary to obtain peace in the world and the end of the war, because only She will be able to aid you.”

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

The fact remains that people can speak of Mary’s “co-” operation with the Plan of Salvation all they want, but “co-” has come to mean “equal,” as in co-chairmen, co-presidents, co-captains on a football team. Such a title as co-redemptrix will be understood by many if not most, within and outside of the Church, as making Mary equal to Christ, and fevered, earnest explanations by apologists will do nothing to change that. It should be about Mary’s Son, not Mary’s titles.

 

[fin]

I hope so. I really think the Church should act in a way without worrying about what other groups think. Look at Pius XII. His cause got stalled because they did not want to offend other groups. Church matters are Church business.

 

[godisgood77]

Why make up doctrine or dogma? There is no foundation for this title and several others. The Catholic religion is not fiction… we shouldn’t just make stuff up. Even if a case could be made for this, there is no need for it. I can see no good coming from it only disagreement and confusion.

 

[Pulvis]

I hope so. I really think the Church should act in a way without worrying about what other groups think. Look at Pius XII. His cause got stalled because they did not want to offend other groups. Church matters are Church business.

Wish that were so Fin. But not in this age.

 

[godisgood77]

Well, our Blessed Lady either is or is not the co-redemptrix. And if she is as I believe this is the very truth, why hide the truth as if truth does harm to people? Hiding truth is not the way of Christ who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; nor is it the way of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of truth. Hiding truth from our protestant brothers and sisters or anybody else in the world is not charity towards them or true ecumenism but a work of the Evil One, the father of lies. The very mission of the Church guided by the Spirit of truth is to proclaim the truth as this was the mission of Jesus Christ who said ‘For this I have come into the world to testify to the truth. And all who are on the side of truth listen to my voice.’ The fact is, Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer of the world, came into the world and became incarnated in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary because Mary freely assented and cooperated to God’s plan and will for the redemption of the human race. And God who is not outdone in generoisty has rewarded and raised her above all creatures, angelic or human. Our Blessed Lady is the Queen of heaven and earth and whoever does not want to acknowledge this, unless because of inculpable ignorance in this life, is not going to inherit the eternal kingdom of God.

As St. Irenaeus says, “Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.” Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: “The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary “the Mother of the living” and frequently claim: “Death through Eve, life through Mary.” (CCC#494).

The image on the front side of the miraculous medal which our Blessed Mother showed to St Catherine Laboure has Mary crushing the head of the ancient serpent fortold in Gen. 3:15. I believe in these times of the world we need our Blessed Mother more than ever to dispel and defeat the powers of darkness that are waging war on her offspring (Rev. 12: 17). As it was through Mary that Christ came the first time in lowliness and humility, so will it be through Mary for Christ’s second coming in all his glory (St Louis de Montfort).

Our Lady to sister Lucia from the third apparition of Mary at Fatima “continue to recite the Rosary every day to our Lady of the Rosary to obtain peace in the world and the end of the war, because only She will be able to aid you.”

With respect, nothing in this post strengthen’s the argument for this title. Making reference to private revelation and an individual’s pious belief does not qualify as something all Catholics need to believe. It just doesn’t

 

[Richca]

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/Mary_holding_Jesus_Credit_jannoon028_Shutterstock_CNA.jpg

Detroit, Mich., Jan 29, 2017 / 03:04 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Earlier this month, the International Marian Association submitted a request to Pope Francis, asking for the public recognition of the title of Mary as “Co-Redemptrix with Jesus the Redeemer.”

The 10 page document was submitted by the Theological Commission of the International Marian Association, a group of more than 100 theologians, bishops, priests, religious, and lay leaders from over 20 countries dedicated to the “full truth and love of Mary, Mother of Jesus.” It comes during the 100th year anniversary of the Marian apparitions at Fatima, Portugal.

The significance of the request, if it were to receive approval, is that the faithful would be given further clarity on Mary’s unique role in cooperation with Christ in the work of redemption, Dr. Robert Fastiggi, Professor of Mariology at Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit, told EWTN News.

“I think many people sense the spread of evil in the world and see the importance of highlighting Mary’s role as spiritual Mother,” Dr. Fastiggi said in e-mail comments.

Yes, this would be a wonderful step forward toward the fifth and final Marian dogma as requested by Our Lady in her apparitions to Ida Peerdeman in Amsterdam, Holland, which apparitions have been approved by the local bishop as being of supernatural origin.

amsterdamapparitions.com/

 

[TCEL]

Yes, this would be a wonderful step forward toward the fifth and final Marian dogma as requested by Our Lady in her apparitions to Ida Peerdeman in Amsterdam, Holland, which apparitions have been approved by the local bishop as being of supernatural origin.

 

[godisgood77]

Richca;14436493:

Interesting you brought this up. I was wondering if there had been some kind of apparition tied with this title. It makes me think of St. Bernadette and Our Lady of Lourdes, regarding the title Immaculate Conception.

The Ida Peerdamamn apparitions are not approved… sorry. Some people just chase Marian apparitions like Trump chases women

On 7 May 1956: the Catholic Bishop of Haarlem, Johannes Huibers, issued a finding of “no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions”, and prohibited public veneration. This decision was reiterated the following year with approval of the Holy Office on 13 March 1957.[7]
On 24 May 1972: the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, (formerly known as the Holy Office) responding to a letter from the Bishop, re-affirmed its decision.[7]
On 25 May 1974: upon further review, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith affirmed its earlier decision, and invited the faithful to discontinue all forms of propaganda with regard to these alleged apparitions and revelations. Moreover, the Sacred Congregation encouraged rather the faithful to express their devotion to Mary as Queen of the Universe, as discussed in the 1954 encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam.[7]
On 31 May 1996: Bishop of Haarlem, Henry Bomers reserved decision on the apparitions, but found no fault in invoking Mary under the title of “Our Lady of All Nations”.[8]
31 May 2002: Msgr. Jozef Marianus Punt, Bishop of Haarlem-Amsterdam, approved the apparitions by acknowledging their supernatural origin, and established a commission to document any experiences and testimony.[9][10]
September 2008, Msgr. Charles Scicluna, Promoter of Justice for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, addressed the 22nd Mariological Congress in Lourdes, France on the topic of the Church’s 1978 Norms of discerning presumed apparitions and revelations. In 2010, the address was published in the scholarly journal of the Pontificia Academia Mariana Internationalis. In his essay, Scicluna states once a decision of the CDF is rendered on an alleged private revelation, the decision is of “undisputed hierarchical authority,” and a lower authority cannot overturn it. Msgr. Scicluna questioned whether Bishop Punt had the authority to make a determination regarding the Amsterdam apparitions after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had rendered its decision.[11]

 

[fin]

Why do we have to make fun of Marian apparition chasers?

Or Trump? I do not even like him, but honestly, all this anti whatever is getting exasperating.

 

[TCEL]

TCEL;14436515:

The Ida Peerdamamn apparitions are not approved… sorry. Some people just chase Marian apparitions like Trump chases women

On 7 May 1956: the Catholic Bishop of Haarlem, Johannes Huibers, issued a finding of “no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions”, and prohibited public veneration. This decision was reiterated the following year with approval of the Holy Office on 13 March 1957.[7]
On 24 May 1972: the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, (formerly known as the Holy Office) responding to a letter from the Bishop, re-affirmed its decision.[7]
On 25 May 1974: upon further review, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith affirmed its earlier decision, and invited the faithful to discontinue all forms of propaganda with regard to these alleged apparitions and revelations. Moreover, the Sacred Congregation encouraged rather the faithful to express their devotion to Mary as Queen of the Universe, as discussed in the 1954 encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam.[7]
On 31 May 1996: Bishop of Haarlem, Henry Bomers reserved decision on the apparitions, but found no fault in invoking Mary under the title of “Our Lady of All Nations”.[8]
31 May 2002: Msgr. Jozef Marianus Punt, Bishop of Haarlem-Amsterdam, approved the apparitions by acknowledging their supernatural origin, and established a commission to document any experiences and testimony.[9][10]
September 2008, Msgr. Charles Scicluna, Promoter of Justice for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, addressed the 22nd Mariological Congress in Lourdes, France on the topic of the Church’s 1978 Norms of discerning presumed apparitions and revelations. In 2010, the address was published in the scholarly journal of the Pontificia Academia Mariana Internationalis. In his essay, Scicluna states once a decision of the CDF is rendered on an alleged private revelation, the decision is of “undisputed hierarchical authority,” and a lower authority cannot overturn it. Msgr. Scicluna questioned whether Bishop Punt had the authority to make a determination regarding the Amsterdam apparitions after the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had rendered its decision.[11]

I find your comparison between people interested in Marian apparitions and Trump offensive, frankly. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Della]

Is there really a good justification for raising the title of co-redemptrix from doctrine to dogma? I suppose it could emphasize the Church’s role (meaning all of us, too) as being co-redeemed in Christ.

I don’t know… it’d be nice if the Church could teach a doctrine without people rejecting it until it’s proclaimed dogma.

It isn’t doctrine. That’s part of the objection to it.

TCEL:

Interesting you brought this up. I was wondering if there had been some kind of apparition tied with this title. It makes me think of St. Bernadette and Our Lady of Lourdes, regarding the title Immaculate Conception.

For the benefit of our lurkers and seekers, the dogma of the IC had been proclaimed four years prior to the apparitions at Lourdes. Certainly it is connected but more as an affirmation in a private revelation rather than springing from a private revelation. Still, the IC is no way dependent on the apparitions at Lourdes.

 

[Wesrock]

Why make up doctrine or dogma? There is no foundation for this title and several others. The Catholic religion is not fiction… we shouldn’t just make stuff up. Even if a case could be made for this, there is no need for it. I can see no good coming from it only disagreement and confusion.

Sigh… It’s not made up or new. It’s already a teaching of the Church. It’s just not ‘dogma.’

As previously stated, it’d be nice if Catholics didn’t have to be pushed and prodded and pulled into accepting a teaching of the Church.

 

[Della]

Sigh… It’s not made up or new. It’s already a teaching of the Church. It’s just not ‘dogma.’

I’m afraid not, my friend. Certainly we believed that Mary fully co-operated with God in all things. However, the Church has not said she is to be called co-redemptrix. If the Church had stated that, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

 

[Wesrock]

So be this logic St Paul deserves the title co-redemtrix. I don’t think anyone would or could object to the fact that every person has an obligation to ‘put on Christ’.

Mary is an archetype of the Church and Daughter Zion. The ecclesial dimension of Mary being the archetype mentioned here is itself ancient and shared by Catholic and Orthodox alike.

Naming Mary as co-redemptrix, then, is not only an acknowledgement of her unique role in providing humanity’s yes to God as the New Eve, but also must be understood in its ecclesial dimension in its application to the Church’s role as a whole as co-redemptrix, meaning not just the clergy but also us united as members of Christ’s body.

And I say all this even though I don’t think this needs to be dogma. Though the more I write the more it seems appropriate, to be honest.

 

[Wesrock]

I’m afraid not, my friend. Certainly we believed that Mary fully co-operated with God in all things. However, the Church has not said she is to be called co-redemptrix. If the Church had stated that, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Yet we see this train of thought of Mary’s unique role in our salvation since the early Church fathers, some going so far as to name her a cause of our salvation, and certainly articulated by members of the Church today, even if they refrain from using the title Co-Redemptrix. I’m not sure a formal Latin title is necessary to express the teaching, but it is an expression of Catholic teaching on the subject none-the-less. Still, it may be an unnecessary “Latinism,” and that would be my primary objection to the title.

 

[James248]

The fact remains that people can speak of Mary’s “co-” operation with the Plan of Salvation all they want, but “co-” has come to mean “equal,” as in co-chairmen, co-presidents, co-captains on a football team. Such a title as co-redemptrix will be understood by many if not most, within and outside of the Church, as making Mary equal to Christ, and fevered, earnest explanations by apologists will do nothing to change that. It should be about Mary’s Son, not Mary’s titles.

Exactly! The backers of this dogma should have remembered that.

 

[Tobias2]

This is a vary bad idea and a huge mistake. Even JP2 did not go here. There has been “abuse” of devotions to Mary in the past and that could easily happen again if this “co” title is defined.

It could be the Pope is doing this to appeal to women who see the Church as deficient because of the current teaching on the all-male priesthood. That problem could start to be addressed by the coming discussion of female deacon during the 2018 Synod.

Either way this would be wrong.