M
MariaG
Guest
Michael,No response to my post #111? Did you read the very short tract? Or even have any comment on my response? Did you miss the post?
God Bless,
Maria
- Status
Michael,No response to my post #111? Did you read the very short tract? Or even have any comment on my response? Did you miss the post?
God Bless,
Maria
C
Church_Militant
Guest
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif
Hey do us all a favor and try not to talk about things that you donāt understand although you THINK that you do. That should keep you pretty well silent on all things Catholic since you have no clueā¦None whatsoever, about what you are talking about.
So far as I can seeā¦no one has insulted you (yetā¦Iām thinkinā of a couple of good ones though
) in spite of your ongoing anti-Catholic tirade.Everything that you have stated is either your personal interpretation of some verses of the Bible (which I doubt since you probably got it all from your pastor or some other preacher or teacher on tape or some book, some man nonetheless) or some misinformed rhetoric that shows a glaring lack of real insight into what John Paul II has said. I know what he means and itās not at all unChristian, though some numbskulls out there have tried to make it seem like it is.
Soā¦you deny that any person could live a sinless life by the grace of God? Then you would accuse God of being unfair since that is exactly what we are told to do in the NT again and again. 1st Peter 1:14 As children of obedience, not fashioned according to the former desires of your ignorance: 15 But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy:
16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy.
case in point:
1st John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whosoever is not just, is not of God, nor he that loveth not his brother.
Sure looks like there is an expectation of sinless living from St. John! And well he might know since the Blessed Mother lived out her life with him.
Look again at how St. John speaks of what is now Catholic belief : 1st John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.
(Oh noā¦not confession!
)John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
(How can one know whether to absolve or retain a sin unless one knows what it is? Therefore it only makes sense that sins are told to one who has been ordained (by the laying on of hands!) by God to offer that absolution as commanded by Christ himself.)
James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
:bible1: So it would seem that Catholics follow the New Testament (and the OLD!) when it comes to dealing with sins. Do you obey these NT verses? Or do you twist them all out of context to save yourself from the humility of having to face someone in God-given authority over you in the church and confess your sins and then receive counsel and absolution from that servant of Christ as He said we should?
The Blessed Virgin Mary was the most unique human being in all of human history and I personally have no problem believing that she led a sinless life by her moment by moment cooperation with the superabundant grace of God. Her sinless life was accomplished by the power of God made manifest in her life as she walked with Him moment by moment. If I were you or anyone else who feels differently I would at least try to have the good sense to keep still about someone who is obviously so dear to the heart of Our Lord Jesus Christ. (and maybeā¦just maybeā¦pray that you too could love and serve God the way the Blessed Virgin did. TOTUS TUUS
Pax vobiscum,
M
michael777
Guest
Is the below your real augument?
Church Militant:
Church Militant:
M
Mickey
Guest
Alas, the Catholic/Orthodox Church has sadly been dealing with your revisionist theology for at least 500 years. There are so many ways to refute your heretical view, but I will keep it nice and simple for you. I pray that one day the veil will be lifted from your eyes.
And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. John 1:14
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art though among women. ** Lk 1:28**
Jesus was full of grace and sinless.
Mary was full of grace andā¦
M
michael777
Guest
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art though among women. Lk 1:28
As long as you Bible expounds blatant deviences from the orginal text , it is to be expected that you fail to understand anything of the deception you are under.
As long as you Bible expounds blatant deviences from the orginal text , it is to be expected that you fail to understand anything of the deception you are under.
J
jimmy
Guest
Why donāt you explain to me the original text? What do you think the accurate text is? Here is the greek for Luke 1;28.
M
Mickey
Guest
That came from the Douay- Rheims Bible. In case you were wondering, āHighly favoredā is properly translated in Greek as āFull of graceā.
Care to try again? (without the arrogance this time)
PS-- I see suspension in your near future.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
The rest of your post is simply too insulting and rhetorical to waste time with answering. You have violated forum rules and are being reported. I will not have our most holy faith impugned by your ingnorant rantings & biased allegations of events that did not occur. :irish1:No one alleges that Mary could not have sinned, since that would make her essentially without free will and we know better.
That was precisley what the catholic argue with meall the time, that she never sinned!!How do you figure trigger? I agree that she never sinned during her lifeā¦but the Catholic contention that she could have sinned but by cooperation with the superabundant grace of God (āFull of Graceā) did not.
āWhat I am saying is that she was indeed sinless by the grace of God that she cooperated with.ā
BY GRACE YOU MEAN VIA FAITH???You are argiung something that aplied to ALL WHO BLIEVED IN THE LORD GOD OF ISREAL AND CHRIST THOUGH, JUSTIFIED IN THE EYS OF GOD THROUGH FAITH. Do not shout!
This is truly amazing!!!
You mean to say THE whole argument with so called protestents had been based upon non punishment of sins committed because of Grace through faith?? DUH!
Dont you know that every old testemant saint/believer followed the spiritual rock that is christ and so were forgiven and justified in the faith of abraham?
If what your saying here is what im thinking you are, why was there ever a need to construde a fantasy concering mary and here so called āsinless stateā in the the first place.? Here you become insulting.there is no fantasyā¦but the logical and faithful acceptance of a spiritual fact. And since she was pure from conception that also points out the uniqueness of her position as the mother of God. Because Jesus was holy God in the fleshā¦the Blessed Virgin had to be holy as well. Not preexistent, not divine, but sinless by the work of God in her life.
For it was and is well known that all who believed in the Lord God of Isreal before Christ were also believing in the Spiritual rock that was Christ and so were covered.
There was no need for AN EXTRA SPECIAL COVERING JUST FOR MARY, AS THE MARIAN FANTASY OF BORN WITHOUT SIN PROPOSES.
What an absolute farce this is!!!
The whole thing is totally uneccessary
How many people have been murdered i wonder over this heresy concerning the Mother of Jesus?** Further insultsā¦no one was murdered. You have exposed your own biased source and bigotry.**
"Did God not call us all to be sinless as Christians? Certainly!"
No he made us to be without blame in his sight and justified us through faith.
He called us to repent of sin and turn to live a godly life.
He didnt call us to be sinless. For it is impossible for us to do so.** (With God all things are possible? Or notā¦I guess in your theologyā¦)
**
āWould God command us to do something that was impossible for us as humans and then not supply us with the grace to do the impossible? I donāt believe so.ā
It is not by our works or our own effort that we maintain any state of blamlessnes or maintain a state of cleansing from sin!!
As to our efforts to avoid the works of Darkness that is to do with co operation, but no man/woman ( has ever ever lived a totally sinless life in the respect they never physically or mentally sinned.
we are justified by Gods action alone not ours.
You see how blasphemous this claim about mary really is??
Only God alone is and was sinless. We are adopted into that blessing through in his mercy and grace via the free GIFT
OF FAITH IN CHRIST.
Mary is of the human race!!
What is sufficent for all is sufficient for her
What an insult to GODS FREE GIFT OF GRACE TO SAY THAT IT WAS NOT SUFFICENT FOR MARY
This stupid argument makes Mary sound like some PROUD DEMI GOD WHO COULDNT TRUST GODS GRACE.
Is this salvation by works? NO. This is salvation by the grace of God since it is by HIS power that we are able to do this thing. Just as any miracle is not done by our own power or but by the power of God unleashed by our cooperative faith.
FAITH IN CHRIST IS SUFFICIENT FOR ALL ARE YOU TELLING ME SHE DIDNāT ATTAIN THROUGH BELIEF?Quite the contraryā¦you have spun my words to fit your own argument. The other Catholics on here know what I mean. You have chosen to remain intransigent and obtuseā¦
WHAT ELSE COULD SHE BELIEVE IN???
She was told she would give birth to Jesus plain and simple nothing else!!
Maryās life was one that was full of such miraculous cooperation with Almighty Godās grace.
I
Ignatius
Guest
I understand that the Lutherans, Anglicans, Coptic, and several other denominations also believe in the sinless nature of Mary. Is this correct?
B
BlackKnight
Guest
Though I hadnāt really thought of it in the context that CM discusses it, I have to admit that it is logical and Biblically plausible IMO.
T
TNT
Guest
YOU HAVE AN AUTHENTIC ORIGINAL TEXT OF LUKE??
IāLL GET YOU OVER $7,000,000 FOR IT, PRONTO.
**IF YOU DONāT HAVE IT, OR ACCESS TO IT, THEN YOU ARE AN IGNORAMOUSE, WHICH WE ALREADY SUSPECTED ANYWAY.
**
PERSONALLY, I THINK YOU OUGHT GO BACK TO INTERPRETING ROAD MAPS OF THE KANSAS PRAIRIE. BECAUSE RIGHT NOW YOUāRE IN WAY OVER YOUR ANGLICAN BIBLE HEAD.
T
TNT
Guest
If you find anyone MORE Logical than CM, I want to know, immediately!
And, yes PLAUSIBLE exceeds POSSIBLE, and is just behind PROBABLE. So keep going. Youāll ge there.
God Bless.
R
RobbyS
Guest
The Muslims have a loftier Christology than you do.
R
RobbyS
Guest
If you accept an argument from silence, how do you know that she was not aware that Jesus had risen from the dead ?
F
fredrock
Guest
Hi Maria,
I do not agree that one must have knowledge that what they are doing is sinfull for it to be come sin to them. While it is true that the bible says in Romans 7:7 āI would not have known sin except through the law.ā It is clear that Paul is teaching that It is because God wants to arouse us to our sinful nature that the law came in the first place, so in affect it would lead us like a school master to seek the forgivness of Christ.
The holy scriptures are clear how sin was transfered from Adam to all the human race. You can read all about this in the letter to the Romans chapter 5 beginning in verse 12**.**
I personally do not see how it detracts from Mary to include her in the fall. Even if she was able to keep the whole moral law, the reality is that she would still not be justified in the sight of God based on the performance of the law, Romans 3:20 "By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
As for your other points about the mentally handicapped and infants, they are included in Adamās race and are to be included in what Paul said in** Romans 3:23 āFor all have sinned and fall short of the glory of Godā**
Finally, no, Jesus did not sin. Nor did He have the curse of Adam applied to Him as He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and not subject to original sin. And no, He did not fall short, but gave His life freely for the ransom of many once for all time and has sat down at the right hand of God to the praise of His glory.
In His Service,
Fredrock
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2Rollin_Stoned
Guest
So then a child under the age of reason is a sinner, even though they are innocent and donāt know right from wrong? Bushwa!
Worse still you havenāt really read all the posts here that relate to this because there is a wealth of information that you have somehow missed.
You really donāt have a clue what CM and the rest of us are talkinā about do ya?
F
fredrock
Guest
Tis true that I am new to this discussion and readilly admit that I do not know all that has been discussed earlier.
I kindly ask to be permitted to give my thoughts.
If no, then I will move on, but since you have asked the question of infants then the scriptures are clear that sin is passed to all the human race through Adam.
Lest I leave you frowning, think of this as a good thing. For just as sin has passed to all men and death to all because of that sin. Riteousness and life is passed to many through the work of the second Adam, Christ. You can read all about this good news in the letter to the Romans Chapter 5. May God bless the reading of His word.
In His Service,
Fredrock
I kindly ask to be permitted to give my thoughts.
If no, then I will move on, but since you have asked the question of infants then the scriptures are clear that sin is passed to all the human race through Adam.
Lest I leave you frowning, think of this as a good thing. For just as sin has passed to all men and death to all because of that sin. Riteousness and life is passed to many through the work of the second Adam, Christ. You can read all about this good news in the letter to the Romans Chapter 5. May God bless the reading of His word.
In His Service,
Fredrock
T
TNT
Guest
Iād be glad to read Romans, if first you can show me where it is REQUIRED to be an inspired writing for the NT Church.
Finally, can you please tell me which writings are FOR SURE HIS. And how do you know, infallibly, that they are and if ANY of His writings were possibly left out.
Is it REALLY 27 books, no more, no less, or should it have maybe been 29?
F
fredrock
Guest
Hi,
You said, ā**Iād be glad to read Romans, if first you can show me where it is REQUIRED to be an inspired writing for the NT Church.
**
Finally, can you please tell me which writings are FOR SURE HIS. And how do you know, infallibly, that they are and if ANY of His writings were possibly left out.
Is it REALLY 27 books, no more, no less, or should it have maybe been 29?ā
Im glad you asked such an important question. My prayer is that as you read the inspired word you will recognize as I have that the letter to the Romans is indeed for those who would follow after Christ.
The answer you seek can be found in 2 Peter 3:14 (Peter speaking) " Therefore, beloved,looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; (15) and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-**as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, **(16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also with the rest of the Scriptures.
The Apostle Peter recognized Paul as one who was a reliable witness to the truth and as a writer of Scripture. The wisdom given him was by the Holy Spirit as Paul would later tell Timothy. All believers would do well to head the instruction of the book of Romans.
To the other questions of authorship. There should be no doubt that Romans was written by Paul. Infact, the first word of the epistle is his name.
In His Service,
Fredrock
You said, ā**Iād be glad to read Romans, if first you can show me where it is REQUIRED to be an inspired writing for the NT Church.
**
Finally, can you please tell me which writings are FOR SURE HIS. And how do you know, infallibly, that they are and if ANY of His writings were possibly left out.
Is it REALLY 27 books, no more, no less, or should it have maybe been 29?ā
Im glad you asked such an important question. My prayer is that as you read the inspired word you will recognize as I have that the letter to the Romans is indeed for those who would follow after Christ.
The answer you seek can be found in 2 Peter 3:14 (Peter speaking) " Therefore, beloved,looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; (15) and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-**as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, **(16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also with the rest of the Scriptures.
The Apostle Peter recognized Paul as one who was a reliable witness to the truth and as a writer of Scripture. The wisdom given him was by the Holy Spirit as Paul would later tell Timothy. All believers would do well to head the instruction of the book of Romans.
To the other questions of authorship. There should be no doubt that Romans was written by Paul. Infact, the first word of the epistle is his name.
In His Service,
Fredrock
T
TNT
Guest
Actually, to be honest, Iām even less certain that this ā2peterā book/letter is required in the Catholic Scriptures. I donāt know that Peter wrote it at all. Therefore, I could not really use it with infallible certitude in determining the inspiration of the Romans letter.
Now, re: Romans. Couldnāt anyone have said āIām Paul the Apostleā and this is my letter? I mean, there were / are tons of writings out there in the ancient texts that claim they are by some Apostle or his sidekick, and then didnāt get into the 27 books.
I still donāt know about that #27. Why not 29 with 2 thrown out or lost, forever. How do we know?
Do we even have the original manuscript? If not, how do we even know they werenāt ājerry-riggedā?
- Status