Could The Blessed Virgin have lived a sinless life?

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gladtobe:
Mary herself said that she rejoiced in God her Savior. Also Mary went up to the temple for sacrifices. I believe Mary was human and not divine. For one to not sin, one must be divine. Even though Mary was declared full of Grace, does not mean she was sinless. When Jesus as a boy misbehaved, I’m sure she grew angry at him and punished him for his misbehavior as all Mothers do.

Also Paul the Apostle said in Romans chapter 3, that **all **have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Paul wasn’t speaking of just a select group of men, but **all of mankind. **
Jesus was Mary’s Savior, He saved her from sin before she was born, yes, I know its hard to understand. What makes you think Jesus misbehaved??? Jesus was sinless! Even when he went to the Temple and Mary and Joseph were worried searching for him, he was not sinning he was in his Father’s house. Mary was sorrowful, but did not grow angry and punish Him. Think about your statement… What makes you think Jesus ever misbehaved? Jesus was both human and devine, human in every way but sin. He did not misbehave.
 
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raymonde:
Why do you think that God, in the Old Testament, and when sacrifices were to be made, that the sacrifies had to be white or of one color, no blemishes? No blemishes is the key word! Please, do not confuse today 2005, with the Times of God and the Holy Mother of God’s time. Mary came from a God-fearing Christian family. God choose her because He knew She would be strong, She believed in God, and did not fear her fate! She did not argue! She obeyed, always! What strength, what a strong faith She had/has! I admire her, we should all admire her!

His Mercy Endures Forever.

May God bless.

raymonde
HUH???, the problem with this statement is that Mary didn’t come from a good Christian family, she came from a good Jewish family.
 
The Sinlessness of Mary would mean that Jesus never understood sin, which would be contraproductive in Gods’ plan for us, Jesus is a Man God mix, he needs to be, otherwise he could not forgive us our sins, not knowing what sin was and then be God sitting at our Fathers right hand and we could not be Gods’ children, brothers and sisters to Jesus!
God has no sin, he is creator with Jesus, Jesus had no sin, having overcome them, where did he get them, well Mary of course, Marys’ part of him was tested in the wilderness and elsewhere, she never had any power over Him when He became of age, though turning water into wine was her idea.He did put her in her place.
Otherwise she probably led a very good life, but only Jesus is sinless and of course Father God.
Our Saviour can only be that when He knew what it meant to be a man as well as God, He was with God at the creation, so He knew what it meant to be God.
With Mary as mother, he learnt how it was to be man
I’m sure Jesus loves His mother, yet He loves his Father more.
Mary is blessed among Women and should always be so, having born Jesus our Christ, but more than that Gods word doesn’t say. Anything against Gods’ word is man made through false spirits or from Satan (Lucifer) Himself.

PS It was a vigin Birth though, it had to be.
 
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fredrock:
Hi,

Why the anger?

What I know and have read about the devotion to Mary, I have read right hear on these forums since the Pope died. The only bias I know of is the two to three days I heard on TV of how the Pope loved Mary. What of Christ! I wondered?

This I heard over and over and over and over. This caused me to want to find out more of the mind of Roman Catholics as I stated in my post. I have much greater issues with Romanism than the devotion to Mary, but this I see is a great error too.

In the many post you make there is a lot of beating at your chest, but you never answer the Scriptures. It is because you do not value them. You said sola scriptura is all wrong. What of the verses that were given? If Roman Catholicism denys them outright then they do not posess the truth.

I do not expect the blind to see unless the Lord give them sight.

A last point. You used the term Christocentric, and that is a big word with a lot of meaning. I am afraid that you do not posess that word either for it was the REFORMERS who taught that it was CHRIST ALONE by grace alone through faith alone.

In His Service,
Fredrock
If you read Pope John Paul II ‘s writings you would see that he loved Jesus Christ above all else. If the media made you think he only had a devotion to Mary that is the Media’s fault not the Pope’s You will also find that Scripture is also of highest importance to the Catholic. I read Scripture daily, pray daily. You need to be more certain and explore a little more to understand the Catholic Church. You dont’ know exactly what you are protesting. You claim we somehow got a Christ-Centered faith 1500 yrs after the Church was established from some reformers? Not true. Go through some of my earlier posts, especially regarding Mary and you will find numerous references to Scripture.

We believe that what Jesus said was for all time, not just the moment. When he was dying on the cross, his last words were for all time and for all people. He gave us his Mother while dying on the cross. We don’t worship her, we only ask her to pray for us to her son, as we also pray to Him. she knows him better than any human being ever did, and loved him as only a mother can. She is a Saint who only wants us to love her Son more, understand Him more and adore Him the way she did, as her Savior and her child, We honor her but she doesn’t want glory for herself only her Son. Catholics are not required to have a devotion to Mary, but most of us believe that she is a part of God’s plan for salvation, as the Lord has a plan for us all. I pray you someday understand this and quit your persecution of the Body of Christ. It is also strange that you call us “Romanists” We are called Roman Catholic. Please do more actual reading and research before you come on her blasting the Church out of ignorance,
Thank you,
Peace Be Wlith You.
 
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Timothy888:
The Sinlessness of Mary would mean that Jesus never understood sin, which would be contraproductive in Gods’ plan for us, Jesus is a Man God mix, he needs to be, otherwise he could not forgive us our sins, not knowing what sin was and then be God sitting at our Fathers right hand and we could not be Gods’ children, brothers and sisters to Jesus!
God has no sin, he is creator with Jesus, Jesus had no sin, having overcome them, where did he get them, well Mary of course, Marys’ part of him was tested in the wilderness and elsewhere, she never had any power over Him when He became of age, though turning water into wine was her idea.He did put her in her place.
Otherwise she probably led a very good life, but only Jesus is sinless and of course Father God.
Our Saviour can only be that when He knew what it meant to be a man as well as God, He was with God at the creation, so He knew what it meant to be God.
With Mary as mother, he learnt how it was to be man
I’m sure Jesus loves His mother, yet He loves his Father more.
Mary is blessed among Women and should always be so, having born Jesus our Christ, but more than that Gods word doesn’t say. Anything against Gods’ word is man made through false spirits or from Satan (Lucifer) Himself.

PS It was a vigin Birth though, it had to be.
You are saying Jesus learned about sin through his mother’s sinfulness? You are also misinterpreting what Jesus said to Mary when she asked Him to turn water into wine. You are interpreting it as though he scolded her. She asked him to perform His first miracle and he did it. If He were “puttiing her in her place” He would not have turned the water into wine. You need to do a little more research as to why the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was sinless. She was saved from origional sin by her Son, before she was born. Jesus’s human nature came from Mary. Jesus was both human and divine, except for sin. God wanted a perfect mother for His Son. He wanted a perfect new Ark of the New Covenant. Jesus understood sin because he was God, the second person in the blessed Trinity. Three persons in one God. Jesus knew all that the Father knew. He didn’t need a sinful Mother to teach him about sin, that’s just poor theology.

Mary never had “power” over Jesus, as you seem to *think we believe. * Nothing has power over God, not even the people who put his human body to death. Jesus loves his mother like any good Jewish boy would.🙂 He wants her to be honored. She nursed him from her breast. We simply ask Mary to pray for us and with us to her son. She is right there with Him, and has an understanding and love for Him that no other human being has ever had. Catholics are not *required *to have a devotion to Mary, but it is encouraged because it helps us to understand Jesus and have a closer relationship with Him.
 
Church Militant:
I

Romans 3 :23 For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.
Any light you can shed on this?
Pax vobiscum,
Hi Church Militant,
what does this mean.
walk in love
edwinG
 
I must confess that I feel like I’m voting on whether two plus two really equals four. Of course Mary could have lived a sinless life; the Church teaches that she did so.

Scrolling down the postings I see a bunch of references to Romans 3:23 where Paul says that everybody has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This is easily explained; everybody he was writing to, everybody they would come into contact with, in fact, pretty much everybody in the whole world, has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. People plenty of times say “everybody” when they mean “everybody except …”.

I also see a question of whether Mary needed a savior. The answer is yes, she did, but this does not contradict the fact that she did live without sin. She was saved by the grace of prevention rather than of cure.

I apologize if I am just repeating what other people have already posted.
  • Liberian
 
Thank you Liberian; You have restated well the basis of the entire thread and I appreciate your contribution. Like you, I find this so simple as to be hard to miss, since to me it just makes good God-given common sense.
Pax vobiscum,
 
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edwinG:
Hi Church Militant,
what does this mean.

Romans 3 :23 For all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.
Any light you can shed on this?

walk in love
edwinG
To a Sola Scriptura believer, it would mean, literally “everyone has sinned” including Mary, so there, put that in your censer and smoke it!!!

But to a Catholic, we understand that this phrase has exceptions: does a mentally retarded person have sin? No. Does a newborn baby have sin? No. Obviously, this passage will cover most of us who are able to read and comprehend what it says, but it should be obvious that there are exceptions, and Mary is one of them.
 
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Ignatius:
I understand that the Lutherans, Anglicans, Coptic, and several other denominations also believe in the sinless nature of Mary. Is this correct?
This is true of the traditionalists among these denominations. The more liberal remainder have fallen short by accepting the rationalist approach to Christianity.

What is true is that Martin Luther believed Mary to be pure and sinless. The same is true of John Calvin and John Wesley. Amongst the Anglicans there is a mixed bag of those who believe in Mary’s sinlessness and those who seem to be confused about what their predecessors taught about Mary.
 
It actually takes a lot of faith to believe that although Mary was a sinner, God counted her among the blameless because of her faith in what He promised. Hbr 8:12 “I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

No purpose in Mary’s sinlessness. Jam 2:23"…Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

Mary identified her Jesus as savior – from what? The wages of sin is death – Mary died! But, not forever, thanks to her faith.

Jam 2:10 “Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.” The good news is that although we fell short of the mark (sinned), Jesus took our punishment.

It makes no sense whatever for God to command us to do the impossible when the Word of God clearly says that “with God all things are possible”.

The key is “with God.” The bible says that before we were servants of God we were servants of sin. Rom 6:20-22 “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

If Our Lady was indeed “full of grace” then isn’t it unbelief to say that she did not lead a sinless life?

grace = gift. The gift is salvation, not sinlessness.

Mary was under the law. Luk 2:27, Lev 12:6 And, where the law is, sin is. Rom 4:15"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression."

We are righteous because of our faith, despite our sin. James 2:23"…, Abraham **believed **God, and it was **imputed **unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

It is clearly not their own works that have merited their salvation, …

Yes, because: Gal 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
…but their works are the result of their full cooperation with the God’s graces…
Yes, if cooperation = acceptance of God’s provision (the cross).
…so that their salvation is a tremendous example of the overwhelming power of the grace that God gives us to do his will.

Salvation is an example of God’s love. Power to do good is available to His children.

…we fail to believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us, …

If sufficient, why sacraments?

Romans 5 :12 By one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Bible doesn’t exclude Mary.

No distinction made between Original sin and actual sin…

Since we’re under the bondage of sin (original sin) we can’t help but sin (actual sin).

St. Paul’s letter to the Romans – I don’t think it is a literal statement.

Rom 3:9"…There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

Of course, it’s literal. This is our pre-God condition.

This is not salvation by works at all, but our cooperation with the free gift of grace from God.
Any light you can shed on this?

You need to seaparate salvation from sactification (works).
 
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TESSfromCALVARY:
It actually takes a lot of faith to believe that although Mary was a sinner, God counted her among the blameless because of her faith in what He promised. Hbr 8:12 “I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”

No purpose in Mary’s sinlessness. Mary identified her Jesus as savior – from what? The wages of sin is death – Mary died! But, not forever, thanks to her faith.

Jam 2:10 “Whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.” The good news is that although we fell short of the mark (sinned), Jesus took our punishment.

It makes no sense whatever for God to command us to do the impossible when the Word of God clearly says that “with God all things are possible”.

The key is “with God.” The bible says that before we were servants of God we were servants of sin. Rom 6:20-22 “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”

If Our Lady was indeed “full of grace” then isn’t it unbelief to say that she did not lead a sinless life?

grace = gift. The gift is salvation, not sinlessness.

Mary was under the law. Luk 2:27, Lev 12:6 And, where the law is, sin is. Rom 4:15"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression."

We are righteous because of our faith, despite our sin. James 2:23"…, Abraham **believed **God, and it was **imputed **unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

It is clearly not their own works that have merited their salvation, …

Yes, because: Gal 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
…but their works are the result of their full cooperation with the God’s graces…
Yes, if cooperation = acceptance of God’s provision (the cross).
…so that their salvation is a tremendous example of the overwhelming power of the grace that God gives us to do his will.

Salvation is an example of God’s love. Power to do good is available to His children.

…we fail to believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us, …

If sufficient, why sacraments?

Romans 5 :12 By one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

Bible doesn’t exclude Mary.

No distinction made between Original sin and actual sin…

Since we’re under the bondage of sin (original sin) we can’t help but sin (actual sin).

St. Paul’s letter to the Romans – I don’t think it is a literal statement.

Rom 3:9"…There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

Of course, it’s literal. This is our pre-God condition.

This is not salvation by works at all, but our cooperation with the free gift of grace from God.
Any light you can shed on this?

Hi Tess, I see you have done your homework. 👍 God Bless
 
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gladtobe:
I certainly support tradition and scripture as binding, but **not **tradition that contradicts what scripture already states clearly. **Catholic tradition originally was never established to replace scripture or correct it, **but to uphold it’s sacred meaning.
If you understand scripture, you will see that tradition already is occurring in the early church.

The teachings of Peter, Paul, John in the Acts and letters show the tradition of the church occuring within the scriptures.

The most relevant event that showed tradition in action was the Council of Jerusalem when the Apostles met with Peter.

Their teachings and actions were church tradition in action.

The first books of the New Testament were letters by Paul around 59 AD. The last, Revelations, between 95 - 100 AD.

The “scriptures” were only put together in 393 AD by the Synod of Hippo and confirmed four years later by the Synod of Carthage.

Where were the scriptures before this?

Tradition (church teaching) was very much alive even before a word of the New Testament (scripture) was written.

It was tradition (church teaching) that confirmed the scriptures.

Which came first? - Tradition

Which has priority?

So when the church tradition teaches about the Immaculate Conception, it speaks from and with authority.
 
Hi TfC, (chapel, I’ll wager…)
Since you’ve chosen to pick apart my IP, I’ll respond. I suspect that your Catholic relatives are praying for you even now.
Mary identified her Jesus as savior – from what? The wages of sin is death – Mary died! But, not forever, thanks to her faith.
It is clear that even the Blessed Virgin (Mary prophesied that all generations would call her that…why haven’t you?) recognized that her righteousness was the result of the power of God. Is there a record in the NT of her sin? No.

No one is attempting to assert that the Blessed Mother did not need a saviour…simply that hers was more complete and preemptive (for lack of a better term) based upon the timelessness of her son’s sacrifice. That sacrifice is indeed timeless is it not? (Rev 13:8 “… the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.”) Her salvation is not in question here…the point is that she could most definitely have lived a sinless life by cooperation with the fullness of grace in her life and is an example of what God has called each of us to.

You folks outside the Catholic Church seem to find it necessary to bang away on the idea that Romans 3:23 is some sort of alll inclusive statement when that is patently and demonstrably not so, there being a difference between original sin and actual sins. The first being that inclination and weakness that is inherent in human nature because of the fall, the second being the result of our failure to cooperate with God’s grace in our lives and as a result, do things that are disobedient to the will of God.

My IP points out quite a few places where God has commanded us to live holy lives (see the definition of holy here. dictionary.reference.com/search?q=holy) and I don’t believe that God calls us to do something that He does not then equip us fully to do. That idea makes complete nonsense out of Christianity and all religions that believe that a holy God calls us to holiness.
Salvation is an example of God’s love. Power to do good is available to His children.
Again, we are not talking about salvation here. The Blessed Virgin’s salvation is a given from the NT context.

If as you say, “Power to do good is available to His children.”, then you should agree with me completely and be rejoicing in the holy life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, since that is the whole point of this thread and the point that I am making here. Only someone who had no knowlege of Christianity at all would ever contend that a holy and sinless life is the result of something other than the cooperation of a believer with the superabundant grace of God in their lives.

My IP also points out that since God has indeed called us to live sinlessly that there should then be no surprise if someone who spent their life in the presence of the Son of God would indeed be that holy. How foolish and unbelieving of such! My point is that the Blessed Virgin is indeed the best example of one who lived an exemplary holy life because of the fullness of grace in her life. Remember that Mary is the only person in all of history to ever be called “full of grace” and I contend that that does indeed make her the most unique of all God’s creations and the first and best Christian of us all.
…we fail to believe that God’s grace is sufficient for us, …
If sufficient, why sacraments?
This really is the topic for another thread, but the short answer is : Why the cross? Is it not a sacrament? (see definitions of sacrament here. dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sacrament ) A sacrament is a physical thing that confers grace…is not the cross a physical thing that indeed conferred grace on us all? And stop and think of every miracle that Jesus did…every one of them had some physical aspect that was an outward sign of the grace that was being conferred. Jesus Himself instituted the sacraments.

Romans 3:23 cannot be literal, since there are manifestly those souls who are not capable of sin. Infants and children below any age of reason and the mentally incompetent for example.

(SW…if this is homework then someone needs to recheck it, and it’s not the Catholics.)

Pax vobiscum,
 
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TESSfromCALVARY:
Mary identified her Jesus as savior – from what? The wages of sin is death – Mary died! But, not forever, thanks to her faith.
Warped theology! Jesus died on the cross.

So he sinned too?

Wages of his sin(s)?

Christ was Mary’s Saviour, yes.

She was the Immaculate Conception, saved by her son.
 
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bob:
Warped theology! Jesus died on the cross.

So he sinned too?

Wages of his sin(s)?

Christ was Mary’s Saviour, yes.

She was the Immaculate Conception, saved by her son.
 
It is clear that even the Blessed Virgin (Mary prophesied that all generations would call her that…why haven’t you?) recognized that her righteousness was the result of the power of God. Is there a record in the NT of her sin? No.
**OBVIOUSLY SHE WAS BLESSED, SHE WAS CHOSEN TO BE THE MOTHER OF JESUS. BLESSED = FORTUNATE, NOT SINLESS.

**
 
**
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bob:
Warped theology!
Jesus died on the cross. So he sinned too? Wages of his sin(s)?

No, our sin put Jesus on the cross. 2Cor 5:21 “God made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin that we might be made righteous.”

Christ was Mary’s Saviour, yes.
Our savior gave Himself that He might redeem us from all iniquity, … (Titus 2:14). These things speak, exhort, and rebuke with all authority (Titus 2:15).

She was the Immaculate Conception, saved by her son.

God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3) through Mary to redeem those under the law (Gal 4:4).
-Tess
**
 
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