Could The Blessed Virgin have lived a sinless life?

[Axion]

sonseeker:

Actually, there are more than two words in the NT that are translated blessed, and eulogio is not used of Mary.

Actually you are wrong:
Luke 1.28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: **blessed ** art thou among women.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, **Blessed ** art thou among women, and **blessed ** is the fruit of thy womb.

“Blessed” in all these references is Eulogio.

**Eulogio ** (Strongs 2127), meaning to “praise, celebrate with praises, bless, or consecrate,”. The word “Eulogise” comes from this word. Eulogio is very rarely used in the New Testament, and only in very sacred terms.

Makarios (makarioV) is the first one used of Mary in Lk 1:48, and to all believers in James 5:11. The only difference being the parsing. When used of Mary, it is future, active, indicative; when used of believers (which includes Mary), it is, present active indicative. Both of the voices (active) indication a continuous action/result.

Makarios “Blessed”, (Strong 3106: often translated “happy”), is generally used in the New Testament as a sign of God’s **exceptional favour ** and also the promise of Great heavenly Reward. Rev 22.14, James 1.12, Matt 5.10-12

Karitoo (karitow) is the second one used of Mary, and it means “to show kindness,” rather than “blessed.” It is also used of believers in Eph 1:6. The major difference in usage is that in the Eph passage it is used as a noun (in the genitive, possession), while in the Lk 1:28 passage it is used as a verb, passive participle. In the Lk passage the action is to Mary. Either way, Mary is also a believer so she has been both “verbed” and “nouned,” while from the Eph passage believers are only “nouned.”

Karitoo/Charitoo doesn’t mean “to show kindness”. It means to endow with Grace. It is a participle of Charis, meaning Grace. The full word used in the Gospel of Mary is Kecharitomene, meaning “One perfectly endowed with Grace.” The word used in Ephesians is different. It is Echaritosen, which means “endowed with grace by Him”. The first implies sinlessness, the second doesn’t.

 

[Mom_of_one]

TESSfromCALVARY:

Momofone:

… the Ark of the Covenant is being transported, it started to slip. A man reached out to steady it, and BOOM, God struck him dead, just for touching it. A sinful man touches something that held the Ten Commandments(and a few other things?), which were objects that God had declared holy, and died. …
How is it that some can think that GOD could be carried 9 months in the womb of a sinful woman and yet nothing happens to her, … Jesus was much holier than objects He made holy, right?

The Mary/Ark parallel is a new one to me. And, I’ve got to admit, whoever made it up, made it sound good. But, your logic didn’t follow accurately for me, MOMOFONE.

Mary wouldn’t be struck whether she was sinless or not, because she wasn’t the outsider touching the Ark. She is said to be

the Ark. Mary was chosen by God to carry Jesus; the struck man was not instructed to steady the Ark.

My logic? Nah! I kinda stay away from apologetics because I’m not very good at explaining things. I was hoping some of the other good apologists would follow up with it. However, I don’t think that the way it was explained had to do with instructions/being chosen. I think it has to do with holiness. If I can find anything more, I’ll post it, but remember, it’s been a long time since I’ve heard this.

 

[kaymart]

Mary was born without original sin therefore she has led a totally sinfree life as we are taught in our Faith since we were small children. To question this is absurd.

 

[yqbd]

you know what else is holy?

Exd 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exd 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.

Exd 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

but just for Israel, new covenant?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Timothy888]

Liberian:

I must confess that I feel like I’m voting on whether two plus two really equals four. Of course Mary could have lived a sinless life; the Church teaches that she did so.

Scrolling down the postings I see a bunch of references to Romans 3:23 where Paul says that everybody has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This is easily explained; everybody he was writing to, everybody they would come into contact with, in fact, pretty much everybody in the whole world, has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. People plenty of times say “everybody” when they mean “everybody except …”.

I also see a question of whether Mary needed a savior. The answer is yes, she did, but this does not contradict the fact that she did live without sin. She was saved by the grace of prevention rather than of cure.

I apologize if I am just repeating what other people have already posted.

• Liberian

Sometimes I’m a bit slow, of course she could have led a sinless life, with God everything is possible. With the grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ we are saved, forgiven, washed white as snow, from what? well sin of course, sin means mistakes against God, I suppose i went at this from the wrong angle and with high glucose as well, been spending time studying though, yes anything is possible in Christ, one of the best lessons about Blessed Mary is her Faith in Gods word as spoken through the angel, you say it, it’ll be so. Wow.
We all have the measure of faith!
God bless you.
Liberian

 

[Timothy888]

Axion:

Actually you are wrong:
Luke 1.28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: **blessed **art thou among women.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, **Blessed **art thou among women, and **blessed **is the fruit of thy womb.

“Blessed” in all these references is Eulogio.

**Eulogio **(Strongs 2127), meaning to “praise, celebrate with praises, bless, or consecrate,”. The word “Eulogise” comes from this word. Eulogio is very rarely used in the New Testament, and only in very sacred terms.

Makarios “Blessed”, (Strong 3106: often translated “happy”), is generally used in the New Testament as a sign of God’s **exceptional favour **and also the promise of Great heavenly Reward. Rev 22.14, James 1.12, Matt 5.10-12

Karitoo/Charitoo doesn’t mean “to show kindness”. It means to endow with Grace. It is a participle of Charis, meaning Grace. The full word used in the Gospel of Mary is Kecharitomene, meaning “One perfectly endowed with Grace.” The word used in Ephesians is different. It is Echaritosen, which means “endowed with grace by Him”. The first implies sinlessness, the second doesn’t.

This is what really got me studieing about Mary
Luke 1:28 is charitoo~ Favoured, as Mary was to soon concieve Jesus, she obviously was,
Luke 1:41 is correct Eulogio, which is the same as the hebrew bärak and means extol, loft up, be blessed, praised, richly bless, didn’t notice consecrate.
Still all that’s besides the point, it’s what’s between these verses that is truely interesting, Mary couldn’t figure out how, still she believed! now Eulogio is often connected to faith and the faithful, it applys to all of us all in Gal 3:9

 

[Axion]

Timothy888:

This is what really got me studieing about Mary
Luke 1:28 is charitoo~ Favoured, as Mary was to soon concieve Jesus, she obviously was,

You see, this is where it is wrong to translate Charitoo/Charis as Favour, where it refers to Mary, and **Grace ** everywhere else in the New Testament. Translation HAS to be consistent. “Favour” and “Grace” in scriptural terms are very different, as in your statement that Mary was “favoured” in that she was soon to conceive Jesus.

In fact that meaning is not supported by the text. It is about endowing with Grace.

“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

Luke 1:41 is correct Eulogio, which is the same as the hebrew bärak and means extol, loft up, be blessed, praised, richly bless, didn’t notice consecrate.
Still all that’s besides the point, it’s what’s between these verses that is truely interesting, Mary couldn’t figure out how, still she believed! now Eulogio is often connected to faith and the faithful, it applys to all of us all in Gal 3:9

Eulogio (exalt) is rarely used in the New Testament. In Galatians 3.9 the primary reference is to Abraham, and the exalting of the gentile Nations through him, only through this is the passage applied to those who take the way of faith.

In the four Gospels **Eulogio ** is only used (even including repititions in parallel passages) a total of 26 times:

2 times of Mary
12 times of God/Jesus
3 times at the consecration of the bread and wine of the Last Supper
4 times at the transformation of the loaves and fishes
2 times of the Apostles after the resurrection
2 times allegorically (Bless those who curse you)
1 time of the children barred from Jesus

The word is not one used commonly, or applied to all believers.

 

[Timothy888]

Axion:

You see, this is where it is wrong to translate Charitoo/Charis as Favour, where it refers to Mary, and **Grace **everywhere else in the New Testament. Translation HAS to be consistent. “Favour” and “Grace” in scriptural terms are very different, as in your statement that Mary was “favoured” in that she was soon to conceive Jesus.

In fact that meaning is not supported by the text. It is about endowing with Grace.

Read the whole chapter, i think (highly favoured) fits exceedingly well, covered or clothed in grace could be another variant, still it is nit picking i suppose, it’s just that the greek word is deliberately other,(charitoo), to the latere ulogeo.

“…Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon…it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to” [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739]

Hmmm Vines says highly favoured (marg; endued with grace) and
The interlinear Greek-English New Teatamant from zondervan says `Thou favoured one’ in direct translation and ‘thou that art highly favoured’ in the authorised version.

Eulogio (exalt) is rarely used in the New Testament. In Galatians 3.9 the primary reference is to Abraham, and the exalting of the gentile Nations through him, only through this is the passage applied to those who take the way of faith.

no in 3:9 it has just finished talking about Abraham and reaches it’s conclusion which is: vs 9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
That is talking to all who have faith in God through Christ Jesus, and goes on further to teach us to live by faith not by the law, because if we have faith then we automatically obey, Christ became the curse of the law, so we as Gentiles can recieve the promise(made to Abraham) of the Spirit through faith, that is the blessing and it’s talking at least to all non Jewish believers.

In the four Gospels **Eulogio **is only used (even including repititions in parallel passages) a total of 26 times:

Yes i noticed this, yet it has a strong connection to faith as well and check out the Hebrew word Barak (there’s a line over the first a, i used an umlaut before), it’s the word used in the cross reference to to Mark 11 vs 9, that is Psalm 118 vss 25,26

2 times of Mary
12 times of God/Jesus
3 times at the consecration of the bread and wine of the Last Supper
4 times at the transformation of the loaves and fishes
2 times of the Apostles after the resurrection
2 times allegorically (Bless those who curse you)
1 time of the children barred from Jesus

The word is not one used commonly, or applied to all believers.

Anyway i thank you for your answer, i did notice it was a seldom used new testament word, i still think faith has a connection to Eulogio and Marys’ faith is very strong, though this connection is something i only noticed today, so i’ll need some time to prayerfully get more on this, for some reason it seems important to me.
Thanks and God bless you

 

[truthinlove2]

Mary is not sinless by necessity, …, Mary is sinless because of her office, namely being the mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

The Office of Readings (Matins) … means:

Christ conquered the devil… The Virgin was Eve (for she had not yet known man);…
Mary lived a sinless life on earth because of her unique vocation, namely that being the mother of God.

Is what posted above considered “official” Catholic teaching? I didn’t see anyone correct what was said, so I must assume Catholics are in agreement with this. I quote the NAB…

On Adam and Eve being virgin when the serpent tempted them…

Genesis 2:21-25 (NABWRNT)
21 So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.22 The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man,
23 the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.”
24 † **That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.25 **The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.

† One body: literally “one flesh”; classical Hebrew has no specific word for “body.” The sacred writer stresses the fact that conjugal union is willed by God.

On Mary being the mother of the 2nd person of the trinity…

Exodus 3:13-14 (NABWRNT)

13 “But,” said Moses to God, “when I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ if they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what am I to tell them?”

14 † God replied, “I am who am.” Then he added, “This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.”

[1]
† I am who am: apparently this utterance is the source of the word Yahweh, the proper personal name of the God of Israel. It is commonly explained in reference to God as the absolute and necessary Being. It may be understood of God as the Source of all created beings. Out of reverence for this name, the term Adonai, “my Lord,” was later used as a substitute. The word LORD in the present version represents this traditional usage. The word “Jehovah” arose from a false reading of this name as it is written in the current Hebrew text.

John 8:53-59 (NABWRNT)

53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?”54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’55 You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.56 Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad.57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”59 So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.

 

[truthinlove2]

Topic: Could The Blessed Virgin have lived a sinless life?

Luke 1:45-48 (NABWRNT)

45 Blessed are you who believed † that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”46 And Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

† Blessed are you who believed: Luke portrays Mary as a believer whose faith stands in contrast to the disbelief of Zechariah (Luke 1:20).

Luke 2:20-24 (NABWRNT)

20 Then the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as it had been told to them.21 When eight days were completed for his circumcision, he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.22 † When the days were completed for their purification † according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord,23 just as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord,”24 and to offer the sacrifice of “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons,” in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord.

† [2] Their purification: syntactically, their must refer to Mary and Joseph, even though the Mosaic law never mentions the purification of the husband. Recognizing the problem, some Western scribes have altered the text to read “his purification,” understanding the presentation of Jesus in the temple as a form of purification; the Vulgate version has a Latin form that could be either “his” or “her.” According to the Mosaic law (Lev 12:2–8), the woman who gives birth to a boy is unable for forty days to touch anything sacred or to enter the temple area by reason of her legal impurity. At the end of this period she is required to offer a year-old lamb as a burnt offering and a turtledove or young pigeon as an expiation of sin. The woman who could not afford a lamb offered instead two turtledoves or two young pigeons, as Mary does here.

If Mary was sinless there would have been no need for her to offer a sin offering in accordance with Mosiac law.

Romans 3:21-24 (NABWRNT)

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.24 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,

Romans 3:10-12 (NABWRNT)

10 as it is written: “There is no one just, not one,11 there is **no one who understands,there is no one who seeks God.12 All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good,**(there is not) even one.

Hebrews 4:14-16 (NABWRNT)

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin.16 So let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and to find grace for timely help.

1 Peter 2:21-25 (NABWRNT)

21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” 23 When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.24 He himself bore our sins** in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed**.25 For you had gone astray like sheep, but you have now returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

The NAB records only one person as sinless, the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God.

 

[DavidB]

Axion:

Another quote ripped from its context in order to be misapplied.

Actually, you’re the one who ripped this out of context. I wasn’t even speaking about Mary with this. I was addressing Militant’s assertion that it’s normal for Christians to live sinless lives.

Axion:

And there are indeed reams of quotes from the Church Fathers affirming Mary’s sinlessness.

Actually, there are not, at least not nearly as early.

Axion:

As for your quotes above:Tertullian was a heretic,

I love how Tertullian and Origen are so often quoted by people like you when you agree with what they said, but declared heretics when they said something you disagree with Cracks me up!

Tertullian fell into Montanism late in his life. This writing was among his orthodox writings.

Axion:

I can find no referenced writing of Clement of Alexandria as quoted by you.

Like you said, they wrote alot, keep looking

Axion:

The Augustine reference I find is this: “The holy Virgin Mary, about whom, for the honour of the Lord, I want there to be no question where sin is mentioned, for concerning her we know that more grace for conquering sin in every way was given to her who merited to conceive and give birth to him, who certainly had no sin whatsoever” Nature and Grace 36

Thanks for this quote, it actually supports my stance. See how Augustine says of Jesus as having “no sin whatsoever” in stark constrast to Mary who was given “more grace for conquering sin” since she had sin and needed to conquer it. If you have no sin, there’s no need to conquer it.

David

 

[Zooey]

truthinlove2:

Topic: Could The Blessed Virgin have lived a sinless life?
Luke 2:20-24 (NABWRNT)
20 Then the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as it had been told to them.21 When eight days were completed for his circumcision, he was named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.22 † When the days were completed for their purification † according to the law of Moses, they took him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord,23 just as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be consecrated to the Lord,”24 and to offer the sacrifice of “a pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons,” in accordance with the dictate in the law of the Lord.

† [2] Their purification: syntactically, their must refer to Mary and Joseph, even though the Mosaic law never mentions the purification of the husband. Recognizing the problem, some Western scribes have altered the text to read “his purification,” understanding the presentation of Jesus in the temple as a form of purification; the Vulgate version has a Latin form that could be either “his” or “her.” According to the Mosaic law (Lev 12:2–8), the woman who gives birth to a boy is unable for forty days to touch anything sacred or to enter the temple area by reason of her legal impurity. At the end of this period she is required to offer a year-old lamb as a burnt offering and a turtledove or young pigeon as an expiation of sin. The woman who could not afford a lamb offered instead two turtledoves or two young pigeons, as Mary does here.

If Mary was sinless there would have been no need for her to offer a sin offering in accordance with Mosiac law.
The NAB records only one person as sinless, the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God.

With respect, there are 2 points I disagree with you on: (A) The phrase is** legal impurity**. This is a matter of Jewish law; it does not speak to the spiritual condition of the mother. It is a matter of being a good Jewish woman! If Mary had not brought the offering, that would have broken the law, which then** would** have been sin. &(B) The same argument could be applied to Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist…John’s baptism was for repentance for sins, yet Jesus was (obviously!) sinless. He was baptized because He was fulfilling the duty of a righteous, religious Jew. Like wise, Mary’s sin offering does not automatically prove sin; it simply makes her a religious Jew.
God bless.

 

[Axion]

DavidB:

Actually, you’re the one who ripped this out of context. I wasn’t even speaking about Mary with this. I was addressing Militant’s assertion that it’s normal for Christians to live sinless lives.

If you weren’t speaking of mary then the objection doesn’t need to be made.

Actually, there are not, at least not nearly as early.

There are indeed many early fathers who wrote of mary as sinless. some examples:

“You alone and your Mother are good in every way; for there is no blemish in thee, my Lord, and no stain in thy Mother.” St Ephraem the Syrian

“What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue.” - Ambrose in Concerning Virgins (Book 2, Ch. 2, art. 7)

Ambrose,Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388),
Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin."

“For Mary alone was this greeting [full of grace] reserved; for she is well said to be alone full of grace, who alone obtained the grace which no one else had gained, to be filled with the Author of grace.” (Ambrose, Expositio evangelii secundum Lucam, lib. 3, n. 9)

Hippolytus, Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me (before A.D. 235)
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”

“He who honors the Lord honors also the holy vessel; he who dishonors the holy vessel, also dishonors his Lord. Let Mary be by herself the holy virgin, the holy vessel…
Honour Mary, but let the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit be worshipped; let no one worship Mary . . even though Mary is most beautiful and holy and venerable, yet she is not to be worshipped.” Epiphanius of Salamis

The early Greek fathers called Mary the **Panagia ** , meaning the All Holy One - which again is a distinction of being sinless…

I love how Tertullian and Origen are so often quoted by people like you when you agree with what they said, but declared heretics when they said something you disagree with Cracks me up!

Tertullian fell into Montanism late in his life. This writing was among his orthodox writings.

Obviously not. The fact is that these people are only trustworthy when they are in accordance with the unity of church teachings.

Like you said, they wrote alot, keep looking

It is up to the quoter to provide a reference for their quotes.

Thanks for this quote, it actually supports my stance. See how Augustine says of Jesus as having “no sin whatsoever” in stark constrast to Mary who was given “more grace for conquering sin” since she had sin and needed to conquer it. If you have no sin, there’s no need to conquer it.

It doen’t support your stance at all! Augustine says in **defining ** the doctrine of original sin, that Mary is excluded and that there is to be “no question of sin” with regard to her!

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Yes, only through God’s Grace.

 

[john_ennis]

michael777:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. - Romans 3:23

the word of God cannot be borken
ALL includes Mary unless ofcourse she wasnt part of the human race in which case christ wasnty fully human!!!

ALL, then, includes Jesus.

But perhaps you will allow for exceptions? Clearly, He is one.

The Bible also says that it is reckoned to every man to die once. Yet, Lazarus (and others Jesus or the Apostles raised from the dead) died more than once. Further, those still alive at the last judgment will not die at all.

Clearly, we misuse Scripture when we put on it a degree of absolutism that it does not imply.

Peace.
John

 

[Mickey]

john ennis:

ALL, then, includes Jesus.

But perhaps you will allow for exceptions? Clearly, He is one.

The Bible also says that it is reckoned to every man to die once. Yet, Lazarus (and others Jesus or the Apostles raised from the dead) died more than once. Further, those still alive at the last judgment will not die at all.

Clearly, we misuse Scripture when we put on it a degree of absolutism that it does not imply.

Peace.
John

That’s why interpretation through Sacred Tradition is imperative.

 

[Church_Militant]

Y’know, a thought occurs to me that this particular quote:

Originally Posted by DavidB
1 John 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive

ourselves and the truth is not in us."

It appears to me that you are alleging self deception against the Catholic Church…I will point out then that you are wrong in that the passage that you are quoting applies to unbelievers as do all the passages that seem to be used for arguments on this topic. That’s what St. John is saying in his context.

Here are at least 3 passages that seem to counter this argument. Regardless, it is biblically inaccurate to say that a Christian cannot live a sinless life by his cooperation with the grace of God, since it is clearly that life that we are called to. The grace of God is the key to it all, since it is that grace that also makes us (Philippians 2 :13) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.:

1. 2 Peter 1 :10 **Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.
   **
2. 1 John 2 :1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just:
3. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God.

The refusal of some non-Catholics to accept the clear messages of these verses is frankly baffling to me in the context of their stated doctrine that the Bible is the sole deposit of faith. To me this is another example of them rejecting something clearly taught in the Bible just because it’s Catholic. God knows we just can’t be right about anything.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Zooey]

1 John 1:8…
If** we** say that** we** have no sin, **we **deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us".
Unless you are arguing that 1 John is written to Mary, this verse does not apply…
And why should he write her a letter? If she is still living at this point, she is with him; if she is no longer on this earth, why should he be writing her a letter?
God bless.

 

[DavidB]

Church Militant:

Y’know, a thought occurs to me that this particular quote:

It appears to me that you are alleging self deception against the Catholic Church…I will point out then that you are wrong in that the passage that you are quoting applies to unbelievers as do all the passages that seem to be used for arguments on this topic. That’s what St. John is saying in his context.

Here are at least 3 passages that seem to counter this argument. Regardless, it is biblically inaccurate to say that a Christian cannot live a sinless life by his cooperation with the grace of God, since it is clearly that life that we are called to. The grace of God is the key to it all, since it is that grace that also makes us (Philippians 2 :13) For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.:

1. 2 Peter 1 :10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.
2. 1 John 2 :1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just:
3. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God.

The refusal of some non-Catholics to accept the clear messages of these verses is frankly baffling to me in the context of their stated doctrine that the Bible is the sole deposit of faith. To me this is another example of them rejecting something clearly taught in the Bible just because it’s Catholic. God knows we just can’t be right about anything.
Pax vobiscum,

Michael,

On the contrary, I’m not disputing your claim “just because it’s Catholic”. I’m saying that your claim is NOT Catholic at all!! You don’t seem capable of grasping the point of my statement.

Please show me a definitive Catholic teaching source that claims it’s normative for us to live a sinless life. Just one will do. You are the first I’ve ever heard of to make such a claim from any Christian religion. Anyone who has even a simplistic understanding of sin realizes that only Jesus led an entirely sinless life - even Mary’s supposed sinlessness was a unique act of Grace because she would normally have been incapable of doing it (as a number of church fathers stated she did).

Repeatedly, early church fathers are quoted as saying only Jesus was sinless. If your claim was true, surely they would have included the Apostles as being sinless (if anyone were capable of such as state, surely it would have been them). Yet, they are specifically known to have sinned - see Paul’s statements in Romans about how he is always doing that which he knows is wrong and Peter’s doctrinal errors that Paul had to correct (yes - that was sin).

I think you need to study Catholic teachings about sin, pray about it, and then return here to respond. You’re showing your lack of knowledge and spiritual maturity with your current argument. We are all called to lead a sinless life, but no one is expected to be capable of achieving it, which is why Jesus died on the cross for us.

David

 

[DavidB]

1 John 1:8…
If** we** say that** we** have no sin, **we **deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us".
Unless you are arguing that 1 John is written to Mary, this verse does not apply…
And why should he write her a letter? If she is still living at this point, she is with him; if she is no longer on this earth, why should he be writing her a letter?
God bless.

Zooey,

My statement was not directed to Mary at all. This exchange is between me and Michael on an entirely different angle. Please read my previous post to him and I think you’ll see the crux of the issue.

Peace.

David