Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

[mfbukowski]

Don’t be a fool. The point is not to join a Church that you disagree with from the outset, but to refrain from trying to mold the Church you are a part of to suit your own beliefs when they are at variance with what the Church believes.

I don’t know that you can explain the difference clearly. If you don’t agree with a church why would you join it?

How do you know a church is “true” if you disagree with portions of it?

Why are you not Baptist even though you disagree with some of their doctrine? Where do you draw the line?

Yes I was being a bit sarcastic, but I think the point is a real one.

What portions of Catholicism do you disagree with? How far can you go before you are no longer Catholic?

I am Mormon because I believe it all.

 

[mfbukowski]

Don’t be a fool. The point is not to join a Church that you disagree with from the outset, but to refrain from trying to mold the Church you are a part of to suit your own beliefs when they are at variance with what the Church believes.

How and why exactly are you “part of” a church you are at variance with?

Frankly? This sounds like the thoughts of a lifelong church member who was born into a religion and who really doesn’t believe parts of the faith, but hangs in there anyway because of – what – family? Fear? Somebody not willing to follow the direction God is suggesting to them, or more willing to accept authority than their own conscience.

Could be the member of any church-- don’t get me wrong.

 

[mfbukowski]

But you used to be Catholic, right? Why the change?

Because I didn’t believe in it. Most of the central doctrines make no sense to me.

 

[mfbukowski]

A few mormon leaders have gone over the edge and fostered cults ie Waco but your average run of the mill Mormon is a good person that will help you when they can.

Thanks for your somewhat sympathetic post, but Waco has nothing to do with the Church of JCLDS.

 

[alanjeddy]

This is a very confused conglomeration some of which we believe and most of which we don’t. I think you misunderstood the missionaries

Believe me it is true. Everything that I said is based on your beliefs.I have talked to other Mormons who in some cases reluctantly confirmed what I am saying. Tell me where I am wrong and we can have a good apologetic exchange.

 

[alanjeddy]

My wife used to be a mormon and now she is in RCIA. My brother -in-law is an elder in the Mormon church so I learned a little about their faith while engaging in apologetic debate with the unending amount of missionaries that would come through our doors.

They believe in eternal progression, somewhat similar to the eastern religeous belief in the hypothesis of reincarnation. Mormons believe in a heaven that has varying degrees of importance. The soul is on a continuing journey of enlightenment and eventually mormons believe they can become like God and have a world of their own over which they will have dominion. They believe that Jesus had dominion only of our planet Earth.

They do not believe in One God in three devine persons. Their Trinitarian theology incorporates 3 independent beings in their Godhead.
And of course, Utah was the last state that gained statehood because of their belief in polygamy.

Tell me where have I misrepresented a mormon tenet?

 

[dzheremi]

How and why exactly are you “part of” a church you are at variance with?

It’s pretty easy, really. Just look at all the Catholics who are pro-choice despite the Church’s strong stance on abortion.

Frankly? This sounds like the thoughts of a lifelong church member who was born into a religion and who really doesn’t believe parts of the faith, but hangs in there anyway because of – what – family? Fear?

I have no idea. I am no longer a member of the Church I was raised in.

 

[MelanieAnne]

MelanieAnne;4754779:

Your intellectual prowess is overwhelming. What a great argument!

A devastating reply! I think I’m converted now. Where’s that confessional?

Bukowski, you actually have to FOLLOW THE THREAD!

 

[MelanieAnne]

Bukowski, you keep arguing with Dzheremi about something I put into the conversation so I feel it is incumbent upon me to interject something.

I think you misunderstood what I originally wrote. Maybe you were in one of your flippant/sarcastic moods at the time, I can’t know for sure.

The point I was trying to make is that too many people go out in search of a church, a religion, and a God that conforms to their already-formed way of thinking.

God doesn’t work that way. God calls us to grow closer to HIM. But He has His own ways and those ways may not be what we’re all used to. To grow closer to God may require that we let go of some things. Not because we don’t like those things but because those things do not bring us closer to God, and, in some cases, they drive us away from God.

Unfortunately, these days, too many people seem to be searching for a “God” or a religion, that validates them, and their way of thinking, just the way they are. They don’t have to make any changes, they don’t have to improve their life, they just have to keep shopping for a church that lets them be just who they are already. That may work for a lot of people, but it is not, in any way shape or form, a move towards God, or a move towards greater holiness.

Don’t get me wrong, I know as well as you do that God loves us even if He doesn’t love our sins, this isn’t about THAT. This is about an arrogant effort on the part of some to re-shape God into someone they like, rather than a desire to re-shape the self into someone more like God.

 

[dianaiad]

The Mormon Church is not considered a Christian church.

By you. Fortunately for the Mormons, you don’t really get a vote in that, especially since your definition of “Christian” seems to include 'saved."

This is not simply an opinion that they are false. It is a fact that they teach abberant and unchristian theology. In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things. The Bible does not teach that God came to another planet, or that he has a goddess wife, or that we can become gods. In fact, the Bible clearly and definitely contradicts those teachings. But, Mormon Church responds by saying that the Bible is not really trustworthy, that the true faith was lost, and that its leader, Joseph Smith, restored the so-called “true” Christian faith: god from another world, becoming gods, goddess mother, etc. Of course, the Mormon Church’s claim is not true. One question to ask the Mormon Church as a whole is why is it that it does not appoint a representative to publicly debate and answer the challenges of competent Christians who know not only the Bible, but what Mormonism teaches? Why is it that the Mormon Church refuses to have open dialogue and appoint a representative who would attempt to defend the LDS teachings from the Bible? Why does it refuse to do this? I believe it is because it doesn’t want to be made to look bad.

:tsktsk: Bill, the church has appointed many people to speak about the gospel. They are called ‘missionaries.’ It does not assign folks to come to forums like this to defend the faith; those of us who actually do stuff like that do it on our own.

By the way, Bill, do take a look at my posts, and compare the number of times I have included biblical references to Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price references, hmmn?

And then dial it back, sir, your blood pressure is rising.

 

[dianaiad]

mfbukowski;4754649:

You don’t get it Bukowski.

But then, you’re a Mormon, so I guess you just CAN’T?

/ ?

One’s search for God must begin with what is true for you. First you look for a church that connects with you on the big issues; Who God is, who WE are, why we are here, where we came from, where we are going; that sort of stuff. If the church you join does not answer those questions in a way that ‘feels true’ (weak words for a profound experience) to you, you shouldn’t join it.

All the rest is growth.

No, m’am, Bro. Bukowski ‘gets’ it just fine.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Again, missed the entire point. You’re giving proof to my argument even as you argue against it. Not sure why.

I’m out, leaving town & won’t be back here for days. I’m sure you’ll miss me desperately.

 

[alanjeddy]

mfbukowski, I guess you have no response to the truth I said about your faith. Apologetics, by and large, is defending ones faith. The silence is deafening.

 

[alanjeddy]

My wife used to be a mormon and now she is in RCIA. My brother -in-law is an elder in the Mormon church so I learned a little about their faith while engaging in apologetic debate with the unending amount of missionaries that would come through our doors.

They believe in eternal progression, somewhat similar to the eastern religeous belief in the hypothesis of reincarnation. Mormons believe in a heaven that has varying degrees of importance. The soul is on a continuing journey of enlightenment and eventually mormons believe they can become like God and have a world of their own over which they will have dominion. They believe that Jesus had dominion only of our planet Earth.

They do not believe in One God in three devine persons. Their Trinitarian theology incorporates 3 independent beings in their Godhead.
And of course, Utah was the last state that gained statehood because of their belief in polygamy.

MFBUKOWSKI please tell me where I have misrepresented your teachings??? (4th request)

 

[jim1130]

Because I didn’t believe in it. Most of the central doctrines make no sense to me.

Thank you for replying. That’s it. No agenda here.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Boy, you guys sure know how to welcome someone new into your group.

So far, I have read a number of things that we supposedly believe. And if we in fact believed them, I would be on your side too, but we don’t.

About the only thing I have seen stated so far that is fact is that we believe Joseph Smith was called of God to be his prophet to restore his Gospel to the earth.

It would take me years to answer all the misconceptions that you have about what it is we believe. One writer even stated that Utah was the 50th state of the Union. I’m sure Alaska and Hawaii would be interested to know that. But seriously, if a person can not get even that right, what about the rest?

Now, I ask you all one question. Did not the Savior teach us, “Do not bear false witness”?

He also told us that “By their Fruits ye shall know them”.

If the fruits of your church are that it’s members go around bearing false witness against others what does that say for your church?

I guess maybe I ought to go back to my Church where we are taught that all things good come from God and not to speak bad about others.

MEgus

MEgus do you think that smith was a matyr ?

 

[Arandur]

Not at all. The difference is the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant.

I’m glad that you recognize a difference.

Please note I did not say that “the church began with Adam”

I guess I could take this back far enough-- but did any Mormon say that here?

MEgus did, and that’s what touched off my replies, because he used this premise:

Now Bill, lets look at this. Did the Lord start his Church in 33 AD?

Or did he restore his Church that was started with Adam?

We believe that Adam and the OT prophets knew about and looked forward to the savior’s birth. Isaiah and all the prophets give us ample evidence of that.

Agreed. Where we differ here is in the precision of that knowledge. Smithians, particularly when they use the JST, presume a very in-depth knowledge, to the point of using the term “Christian” and so forth well before the first actual, recorded instance in Acts–well before Jesus ever incarnated in fact. This is a fairly minor point in the scope of things, but it is pretty baffling to most non-Smithians who see this as contradiction and irrationality.

 

[Arandur]

He also told us that “By their Fruits ye shall know them”.

If the fruits of your church are that it’s members go around bearing false witness against others what does that say for your church?

I guess maybe I ought to go back to my Church where we are taught that all things good come from God and not to speak bad about others.

So you’d condemn a whole church for a few bad apples? Your church won’t hold up to such a standard either.

I agree with you that some of the people on here are uncharitable and belligerent. I don’t, however, agree with false tests and holier-than-thou claims like this, so while you’ve called some out, I’m calling that comment out

 

[Arandur]

I personally believe that such things occurr through Jesus Christ and in his name by faith. I would not dispute the general proposition that Catholics also experience miracles.

I might dispute an individual miracle, but not the general idea

I believe similarly, that the Spirit works among all God’s children. In a way, that’s because everyone is in a sense “catholic,” and Christians baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit are indeed initiated “catholic,” though not in full communion with Christ.

Anyway, my point was to refute the idea that miracles were gone from the earth, something MEgus implied and many Smithians claim (and in order to back up the need for a “restoration,” reference Protestants who have made similar claims). It was also to demonstrate that by any standard used to evaluate miracles and the effects of the Sacraments, the Catholic Church compares favorably to any other. Thus it won’t work very well to claim that evidence that these gifts and occurrences happen within the LDS context are a proof that you have authority and others do not.

 

[Arandur]

I don’t know how you got the idea that we disagree on many of these points-- I think we agree on many, and I am not sure what you mean on the others.

I was responding to MEgus. I had questioned his premise of the Christian church starting with Adam by asking him if Jesus’s life mattered, did or changed anything. He dodged with an attempt to say that the purpose of our lives hasn’t changed, implying that “so why should the church?” My argument (to which you replied) was that his evasive question was irrelevant. I also answered that question in Catholic terms (a question–the purpose of life–that you have proposed before and claimed the Catholic Church had no answer for, btw ).