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alanjeddy
Guest
Actually he can’t refute and deal with the truth.Just fyi for all my fans out there in webland
I am going to radically cut back my time here on CAF.
So if you don’t see me much, that is the reason. You know me better than to give up on an argument, but I really would like to do more dialogue at a slower pace like maybe a couple of posts a week, so I have decided to spend more time on my own blog(s)
Life is too short to spend it arguing!
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Arandur
Guest
But how are you sure that it is God telling you, and how can you be sure that you’re interpreting Him correctly? The mass proliferation of sects and contradictory teachings has occurred because so many people believed that God was telling them something.
I have gotten into this matter with Mormons many times. Most seem to believe that they can trust their own interpretation of spiritual experiences. They typically have a lot of trouble understanding that televangelists play off the same notions, and that every belief system that every man founded and led people astray with began with similar notions. It is a false formula to rely on one’s own interpretations of what one thinks God is saying to them, for it only creates confusion; it is essentially self-justification and belief in one’s own prideful foolishness.
Fortunately, God is much wiser than us and gave us many means by which to test our interpretations so that we could conform our will to His. The primary ones are the Church (Apostolic Authority, Tradition, Scripture); natural law (Creation), and history (of which God is the Author). This is why Jesus instituted the Catholic Church and solidly grounded it in all of these primary, external means of God’s Revelation to man. With these tools, we can know for certain whether our personal interpretation of how the Spirit speaks to us is correct. It requires our humility to accept that we may be wrong so that we may grow in insight and receptivity to the Spirit’s true meaning.
It wasn’t you who pointed to miracles in the LDS church or said that such gifts had ceased prior to the restoration. It was MEgus, and in my experience, many other Smithians.
(BTW, in case I haven’t said before, I use the term “Smithians” inclusively so that I can refer to those things that are common to the LDS, the CoC, Restoration, and Remnant branches that follow one version or another of Joseph Smith’s works. The only part of it that is indeed a little jab
is that I think it is more accurate to refer to these groups as following the belief system outlined by a specific man, since the earthly origin can be linked to him)As for Satan performing “miracles,” I very much agree. He’s a great trickster. I have heard Smithians say that JS could not have been tricked by Satan because Satan would not have lead him to Christ. The problem with that is that Smith calls the other Christian churches the “Great and Abominable Church of Satan,” and they lead people to Christ. So obviously Satan very much enjoys spreading any lies that hurt our communion with God or cause contention among His children, even if we are all still striving to follow Him.
While Satan can perform “miracles” of sorts, I do not think he is responsible for all the “miracles” seen outside of one religion or another. I still think the Spirit works many miracles across humanity. I do think that the Spirit works most powerfully within the Catholic Church, though, particularly through the Sacraments.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
The Mormon Church is not considered a Christian church. This is not simply an opinion that they are false. It is a fact that they teach abberant and unchristian theology. In fact, Jesus warned us about such groups when he said in Matthew 24:24 that in the last days many false Christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many. Mormonism is exactly that, a manifestation of a false prophet: Joseph Smith, who taught all these things. The Bible does not teach that God came to another planet, or that he has a goddess wife, or that we can become gods. In fact, the Bible clearly and definitely contradicts those teachings. But, Mormon Church responds by saying that the Bible is not really trustworthy, that the true faith was lost, and that its leader, Joseph Smith, restored the so-called “true” Christian faith: god from another world, becoming gods, goddess mother, etc. Of course, the Mormon Church’s claim is not true.
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Arandur
Guest
What do you mean by “rationalizing?”
What I was trying to say was that we should not settle for finding belief systems that mesh well with our preconceived notions. Not that we should discount those notions entirely.
It is truly an impossible task to wade through the morass of human ideas without God’s grace providing direction. That direction does not always come from within, though. It can come from challenging external prompting, either by simply being exposed to something or by having someone present a Godly example or perhaps even questioning one’s beliefs.
One guide that should make things easier once people latch onto Judaism: Christianity must be considered, because it claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism. And if Christianity is considered, the Catholic Church must be because it is the only one that claims to have been founded by Christ directly and protected by him through the ages, teaching consistent truth. If the Catholic claim is true, then the journey is at an end, for there are now many measures by which to be assured of Truth.
If any other church is accepted, then you must always be wary of possible false teaching and apostasy even among the leadership, and can never be sure that things are interpreted correctly. There is, simply put, no peace without the assurance that Communion with Christ in his Church provides.
The initial acceptance can be a great Israel-like struggle, or a great leap of faith.
After becoming a true minority in faith going to college in a secular school in the Bible Belt, I began a seven year journey of deep and critical systematic questioning of everything that I believed and had been taught in my Catholic upbringing. I did test my “preconceived notions.” Even with people much more learned about their faiths or philosophies than I was about mine (having gone to Catholic schools all my life previous and an awesome Catholic high school, I thought I knew a lot–boy was I mistaken!). And yes, Mormonism and Restorationism were very major parts of that exploration for me. Yet I never found any philosophy or belief system nearly as consistent and strong as the Catholic faith, and I continued to have experiences affirming it. So I was able to unite reason with spiritual experiences and measure that against nature, history, Scripture, Tradition, and Apostolic Authority to find confirmation in what was Truth. In the process, I learned hard fought humility in giving up many ideas that I personally held and thought were right. Yes, I disagreed with the Church on various things for a long time before I came to realize that Christ was right.
I’m not saying my experience is some great example to all. Just presenting it by way of explaining a bit what I mean about challenging one’s own beliefs, how one can be assured of truth, and what the external measures of truth are by which to compare one’s own interpretations.
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jim1130
Guest
I’ve posted this site before, but if you want some information on LDS then visit this site (I post this link so that you know what you are addressing regarding LDS in lieu of “I heard from so-and-so that Mormons…” As a Catholic, I do not like it when someone says to me “Well, so-and-so says that you Catholics worship Mary.”).
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html
Here are some LDS beliefs (cut-and-pasted):
Chapter 1 - **Our Father in Heaven **- Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.
Chapter 2 - **Our Heavenly Family **- God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.
Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present his plan for our progression (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365). We learned that if we followed his plan, we would become like him. We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19-20).
**Chapter 3 **- **Jesus Christ, Our Leader and Savior **- We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).
Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation.
After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, “I will send the first” (Abraham 3:27).
Jesus Christ was chosen and ordained to be our Savior. Many scriptures tell about this. One scripture tells us that long before Jesus was born, he appeared to the brother of Jared, a Book of Mormon prophet, and said: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. . . . In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name” (Ether 3:14).
Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers.
Chapter 4 - **Freedom to Choose **- We began to make choices as spirit children in our Heavenly Father’s presence. Our choices there made us worthy to come to earth. Our Heavenly Father wants us to grow in faith, power, knowledge, wisdom, and all other good things. If we keep his commandments and make right choices, we will learn and understand. We will become like him. (See D&C 93:28.)
Chapter 5 - **The Creation **- When we lived as spirit children with our heavenly parents, our Heavenly Father told us about his plan for us to become more like him. We shouted for joy when we heard his plan (see Job 38:7). We were eager for new experiences. In order for these things to happen, we needed to leave our Father’s presence and receive mortal bodies. We needed another place to live where we could prepare to become like him. Our new home was called earth.
Jesus Christ created this world and everything in it. He also created many other worlds. He did so through the power of the priesthood, under the direction of our Heavenly Father. God the Father said, “Worlds without number have I created; . . . and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).
Under the direction of the Father, Christ formed and organized the earth.
Chapter 6 - **The Fall of Adam and Eve **- Adam and Eve were among our Father’s noblest children. In the spirit world Adam was called Michael the Archangel (see D&C 27:11; Jude 1:9). He was chosen by our Heavenly Father to lead the righteous in the battle against Satan (see Revelation 12:7-9).
The changes that came upon Adam and Eve because they ate the fruit are called the Fall.
Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden.
…more…
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html
Here are some LDS beliefs (cut-and-pasted):
Chapter 1 - **Our Father in Heaven **- Because we are made in his image (see Moses 6:9), we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangible body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). God’s body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description.
Chapter 2 - **Our Heavenly Family **- God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. “All men and women are . . . literally the sons and daughters of Deity. . . . Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, pp. 78, 80).
Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities. If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they are.
Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present his plan for our progression (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365). We learned that if we followed his plan, we would become like him. We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19-20).
**Chapter 3 **- **Jesus Christ, Our Leader and Savior **- We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27).
Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will. Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to have all the honor for our salvation.
After hearing both sons speak, Heavenly Father said, “I will send the first” (Abraham 3:27).
Jesus Christ was chosen and ordained to be our Savior. Many scriptures tell about this. One scripture tells us that long before Jesus was born, he appeared to the brother of Jared, a Book of Mormon prophet, and said: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. . . . In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name” (Ether 3:14).
Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers.
Chapter 4 - **Freedom to Choose **- We began to make choices as spirit children in our Heavenly Father’s presence. Our choices there made us worthy to come to earth. Our Heavenly Father wants us to grow in faith, power, knowledge, wisdom, and all other good things. If we keep his commandments and make right choices, we will learn and understand. We will become like him. (See D&C 93:28.)
Chapter 5 - **The Creation **- When we lived as spirit children with our heavenly parents, our Heavenly Father told us about his plan for us to become more like him. We shouted for joy when we heard his plan (see Job 38:7). We were eager for new experiences. In order for these things to happen, we needed to leave our Father’s presence and receive mortal bodies. We needed another place to live where we could prepare to become like him. Our new home was called earth.
Jesus Christ created this world and everything in it. He also created many other worlds. He did so through the power of the priesthood, under the direction of our Heavenly Father. God the Father said, “Worlds without number have I created; . . . and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten” (Moses 1:33).
Under the direction of the Father, Christ formed and organized the earth.
Chapter 6 - **The Fall of Adam and Eve **- Adam and Eve were among our Father’s noblest children. In the spirit world Adam was called Michael the Archangel (see D&C 27:11; Jude 1:9). He was chosen by our Heavenly Father to lead the righteous in the battle against Satan (see Revelation 12:7-9).
The changes that came upon Adam and Eve because they ate the fruit are called the Fall.
Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden.
…more…
J
jim1130
Guest
…more…
Chapter 6 - **The Fall of Adam and Eve **- Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden.
After the Fall, Eve said, “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed [children], and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:22-25).
Chapter 7 - The Holy Ghost - The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.
Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.
…Well, this is a good end point. Visit the link for more information so that you are aware what you are debating. It beat the cyclical “he-said, she-said, they-said” posturing.
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html
Thanks.
Chapter 6 - **The Fall of Adam and Eve **- Some people believe Adam and Eve committed a serious sin when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, latter-day scriptures help us understand that their fall was a necessary step in the plan of life and a great blessing to all of us. Because of the Fall, we are blessed with physical bodies, the right to choose between good and evil, and the opportunity to gain eternal life. None of these privileges would have been ours had Adam and Eve remained in the garden.
After the Fall, Eve said, “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed [children], and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).
“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:22-25).
Chapter 7 - The Holy Ghost - The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a spirit that has the form and likeness of a man (see D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at the same time.
Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose. Each has an important assignment in the plan of salvation. Our Heavenly Father is our Father and ruler. Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Holy Ghost is the revealer and testifier of all truth.
…Well, this is a good end point. Visit the link for more information so that you are aware what you are debating. It beat the cyclical “he-said, she-said, they-said” posturing.
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-1,00.html
Thanks.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Y’know, I’ve never heard any Mormon claim that MIRACLES were gone. Miracles are a result of individual faith. What we claim was gone was priesthood authority. You know, the authority to baptize and perform other salvific ordinances. We also claim that the truth was twisted around a little…sometimes more than a little.
But we have never claimed that there were no miracles.
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dianaiad
Guest
Mostly because any similarities are in your mind only.
You might want to ask your brother in law again, since you seem not to be understanding him. Jesus was crucified here on this earth, but it was through Jesus that God created the entire UNIVERSE…so how in the name of all that is wonderful can He have dominion only over this planet?
Odd.
I’ve been a Mormon for close to 60 years. I’ve been a missionary, and a sortapologist for close to twenty years on the internet. I’ve taken enough college classes in my own religion to qualify me for a degree in divinity if the church actually offered such (we don’t).
But you, although you have been proven factually incorrect many times, (Utah was the last state in the union? Say WHAT???)
still claim to know what we believe better than Bro. Bukowski or I do?
I’ll tell you what: I’ll let you get away with that if you will allow that Jack Chick knows what you believe better than you do.
Diana (who would bet anything…if, that is, she gambled…that he won’t get it)
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dianaiad
Guest
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MEgus
Guest
alanjeddy,
How about a better approach. You go to www.mormon.org or www.lds.org and do some research on what we actually believe and come back and let us know what you quoted that was wrong. Then I will know your serious and we’ll talk about what you quoted that is right if you disagree with our beliefs.
MEgus
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MEgus
Guest
I can agree with that. And I think most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will as well.
MEgus
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Here’s the thing MEgus, those websites don’t teach what many Mormons actually believe. “Jesus is the God of this world” is something I was taught in LDS seminary. I was taught a lot of things in LDS seminary that Mormons tell me are not Mormon beliefs.
Yet, I was certainly taught by Mormons who believed what they were teaching me.It may well be the Mormons who alanjeddy knows, believe this stuff. Maybe you don’t, which doesn’t really mean anything in the Mormon world as you can pretty much believe anything you like within a certain framework, if it is at those websites, or not.
You certainly can be a very devout, card carrying Mormon, who read these sort of teachings from a previous Mormon prophet, or a book on early Mormon writings you found on the internet last week, say you prayed about them and say you received a witness that those teachings are correct.
There is no orthodoxy in Mormonism.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
well lets start with the trinity
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alanjeddy
Guest
How about we take one question at a time?
Do mormons believe that they can become a god one day?
How many times do I have to tell you LDS MY WIFE WAS A MORMON . I engaged in apologetic debates with them for over a year. My brother -in-law has been a mormon for over 30 years and we have had friendly conversations about his mormon faith as well as my Catholic faith. So don’t you dare tell me I don’t know your beleifs.
I will ask you again, Do mormons believe that one day they may attain Godhood?
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alanjeddy
Guest
Amen Rebecca, you are absolutely correct. Most mormons don’t know what their church really believes. There is no orthodoxy in mormonism. Their missionaries keep much of the contraversial teachings very quiet. Their beliefs are polytheistic and against God’s command of not having strange Gods before me. I can go on and on. They are at best a cult. That is what Protestants believe too.Here’s the thing MEgus, those websites don’t teach what many Mormons actually believe. “Jesus is the God of this world” is something I was taught in LDS seminary. I was taught a lot of things in LDS seminary that Mormons tell me are not Mormon beliefs.
It may well be the Mormons who alanjeddy knows, believe this stuff. Maybe you don’t, which doesn’t really mean anything in the Mormon world as you can pretty much believe anything you like within a certain framework, if it is at those websites, or not.
You certainly can be a very devout, card carrying Mormon, who read these sort of teachings from a previous Mormon prophet, or a book on early Mormon writings you found on the internet last week, say you prayed about them and say you received a witness that those teachings are correct.
There is no orthodoxy in Mormonism.
W
wilsonpd
Guest
I have seen it bounced around many times on this board that LDS believe that through celestial marriage they may become gods of their own planets which they will populate with their own spirit babies which are a product of physical intercourse with one of their many wives. When I asked my mishies about this they did not deny it. Will a current LDS please make a statement on this? Is it true? Is it partly true? Please explain.
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MEgus
Guest
Yes
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dianaiad
Guest
The church official website doesn’t tell you what the church actually believes?Here’s the thing MEgus, those websites don’t teach what many Mormons actually believe. “Jesus is the God of this world” is something I was taught in LDS seminary. I was taught a lot of things in LDS seminary that Mormons tell me are not Mormon beliefs.
Rebecca, that’s like telling us that the Catholic catechism doesn’t teach what Catholics believe.
Exactly like that.
Yeah, there is.
And you find it on lds.org.
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alanjeddy
Guest
You know they are going to deny it.
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