Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

[Arandur]

One’s search for God must begin with what is true for you. First you look for a church that connects with you on the big issues; Who God is, who WE are, why we are here, where we came from, where we are going; that sort of stuff. If the church you join does not answer those questions in a way that ‘feels true’ (weak words for a profound experience) to you, you shouldn’t join it.

All the rest is growth.

By this standard, is there anyone who was raised Buddhist or Muslim or Zoroastrian, etc. who would ever become Christian? I think Melanie made a very good point about not searching for a church that fits your preconceived notions, but you seem to be saying here that yes, you should find a church that fits your preconceived notions. Your main ones, anyway. In other words, you should be looking for the church of You, plus a few other ideas you can pick up on.

If you’re busy looking for a church that “connects with you on the big issues,” what room does that leave for a conversion or repentance, where you give up yourself and your misconceptions and pride for God? What room does that leave for the response of faith? Where does your pursuit of truth and pursuit of God come in there? It sounds more like a relativistic approach than anything else.

This is a difficult thing to explain, so I’ll take it that you intended something else and ask you to set me straight (unless I have understood you as you meant me to).

Just as the old adage goes that you don’t tear down a fence until you understand why it’s there, you shouldn’t act on your own opinion before coming to understand that which does not at first make sense to you.

The thing that puzzles me about many non-Catholic Christians when exploring the faith and learning about the teachings of various churches is that, due to its unique claims and demonstrable historical progression from Jesus Christ himself, the Catholic Church should be first on the list for any Christian to investigate, and should naturally be given more of the benefit of the doubt than any other church, by far. If its teachings don’t make sense to you, you should try to understand those teachings and see whether you are the one in error or not before dismissing the only Church in existence that can trace its origin directly back to Christ at Pentecost.

 

[amontoya]

The thing that puzzles me about many non-Catholic Christians when exploring the faith and learning about the teachings of various churches is that, due to its unique claims and demonstrable historical progression from Jesus Christ himself, the Catholic Church should be first on the list for any Christian to investigate, and should naturally be given more of the benefit of the doubt than any other church, by far. If its teachings don’t make sense to you, you should try to understand those teachings and see whether you are the one in error or not before dismissing the only Church in existence that can trace its origin directly back to Christ at Pentecost.

 

[palmas85]

I Just Was Talking To Two Mormon That Said They Are The True Church Of Jesus Christ , What Do You Think About This Statement

That is what I think of the statement. My friend, I will tell you something. Any religion that claims if you do all the right things, get enough spirits on your side and learn the secret rituals and maybe even the secret handshake, that you can then become a God and have your own planet, is really out there. And I mean really out there.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I’m glad that you recognize a difference.

MEgus did, and that’s what touched off my replies, because he used this premise:

Agreed. Where we differ here is in the precision of that knowledge. Smithians, particularly when they use the JST, presume a very in-depth knowledge, to the point of using the term “Christian” and so forth well before the first actual, recorded instance in Acts–well before Jesus ever incarnated in fact. This is a fairly minor point in the scope of things, but it is pretty baffling to most non-Smithians who see this as contradiction and irrationality.

MEgus i did not say this . Did the Lord start his Church in 33 AD? our lord jesus christ said this do you not believe our lord as He said i will build My church

 

[alanjeddy]

My wife used to be a mormon and now she is in RCIA. My brother -in-law is an elder in the Mormon church so I learned a little about their faith while engaging in apologetic debate with the unending amount of missionaries that would come through our doors.

They believe in eternal progression, somewhat similar to the eastern religeous belief in the hypothesis of reincarnation. Mormons believe in a heaven that has varying degrees of importance. The soul is on a continuing journey of enlightenment and eventually mormons believe they can become like God and have a world of their own over which they will have dominion. They believe that Jesus had dominion only of our planet Earth.

They do not believe in One God in three devine persons. Their Trinitarian theology incorporates 3 independent beings in their Godhead.
And of course, Utah was the last state that gained statehood because of their belief in polygamy.

dianaiad can you answer for mfbukowski? With my backgound in the mormon faith I believe what I have said above is accurate.
Mormonism, as defined by Catholic trinitarian theology, is charcterised by a polytheistic viewpoint in which God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all considered separate Gods. Mormons also believe in eternal progression after death with the ultimate goal of becoming a God with dominion over another world. These beliefs, and I can give you many more, are not in any way remotely close to Christian orthodoxy. In the 10 Commandments
God said thou shalt not have strange Gods before me…

 

[mfbukowski]

Bukowski, you keep arguing with Dzheremi about something I put into the conversation so I feel it is incumbent upon me to interject something.

I think you misunderstood what I originally wrote. Maybe you were in one of your flippant/sarcastic moods at the time, I can’t know for sure.

The point I was trying to make is that too many people go out in search of a church, a religion, and a God that conforms to their already-formed way of thinking.

God doesn’t work that way. God calls us to grow closer to HIM. But He has His own ways and those ways may not be what we’re all used to. To grow closer to God may require that we let go of some things. Not because we don’t like those things but because those things do not bring us closer to God, and, in some cases, they drive us away from God.

Unfortunately, these days, too many people seem to be searching for a “God” or a religion, that validates them, and their way of thinking, just the way they are. They don’t have to make any changes, they don’t have to improve their life, they just have to keep shopping for a church that lets them be just who they are already. That may work for a lot of people, but it is not, in any way shape or form, a move towards God, or a move towards greater holiness.

Don’t get me wrong, I know as well as you do that God loves us even if He doesn’t love our sins, this isn’t about THAT. This is about an arrogant effort on the part of some to re-shape God into someone they like, rather than a desire to re-shape the self into someone more like God.

How can we know what God wants us to do unless he tells us?

He tells us through our minds, through direction and revelation. I can tell you what to believe or you can believe what God has told you is true.

 

[mfbukowski]

My wife used to be a mormon and now she is in RCIA. My brother -in-law is an elder in the Mormon church so I learned a little about their faith while engaging in apologetic debate with the unending amount of missionaries that would come through our doors.

They believe in eternal progression, somewhat similar to the eastern religeous belief in the hypothesis of reincarnation. Mormons believe in a heaven that has varying degrees of importance. The soul is on a continuing journey of enlightenment and eventually mormons believe they can become like God and have a world of their own over which they will have dominion. They believe that Jesus had dominion only of our planet Earth.

They do not believe in One God in three devine persons. Their Trinitarian theology incorporates 3 independent beings in their Godhead.
And of course, Utah was the last state that gained statehood because of their belief in polygamy.

Eternal progression has nothing to do with reincarnation

We believe in kingdoms of glory

We believe in John 17 that says we will share in the Glory of the Father in the way the Savior does

We do not believe that we will have “dominion over a world”

We do not believe that Jesus “only had dominion over our planet Earth”

We do believe in one God in three divine persons

We do not believe that “Utah was the last state to gain statehood”. Our belief is that that was Hawaii, and their statehood had nothing to do with polygamy.

Other than that, You’re right on the money!

 

[po18guy]

I Just Was Talking To Two Mormon That Said They Are The True Church Of Jesus Christ , What Do You Think About This Statement

Since its teachings appeared over 1,800 years after the fact, appeared quite suddenly in religious “free-for-all” America, contained precepts unheard of in human history, and arrived without prophetic prediction, I must say “no”. God has always sent many prophets over many centuries rather than just one. None of His prophets have spoken in a manner which changed God in His substance. A church which claims to be a “restoration” church, following an alleged “great apostasy” but which cannot place a name, date or place on such apostasy cannot be true. No true church would continue to use the bible which was written and compiled by those in “total apostasy”. No true church could have come into being under such distinctly odd and nonbiblical circumstances, IMO.

 

[mfbukowski]

Tell me where have I misrepresented a mormon tenet?

Just a couple. See my post above

 

[mfbukowski]

It’s pretty easy, really. Just look at all the Catholics who are pro-choice despite the Church’s strong stance on abortion.

I have no idea. I am no longer a member of the Church I was raised in.

If they were LDS they would likely be excommunicated. There is no point in being a memeber of a church you disagree with.

 

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski, I guess you have no response to the truth I said about your faith. Apologetics, by and large, is defending ones faith. The silence is deafening.

I know it’s hard to believe, but I also have a life away from this board. And I dont care about apologetics. I care about truth

 

[mfbukowski]

MFBUKOWSKI please tell me where I have misrepresented your teachings??? (4th request)

third reply

 

[mfbukowski]

Agreed. Where we differ here is in the precision of that knowledge. Smithians, particularly when they use the JST, presume a very in-depth knowledge, to the point of using the term “Christian” and so forth well before the first actual, recorded instance in Acts–well before Jesus ever incarnated in fact. This is a fairly minor point in the scope of things, but it is pretty baffling to most non-Smithians who see this as contradiction and irrationality.

I think this is correct and fair

 

[mfbukowski]

I believe similarly, that the Spirit works among all God’s children. In a way, that’s because everyone is in a sense “catholic,” and Christians baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit are indeed initiated “catholic,” though not in full communion with Christ.

Anyway, my point was to refute the idea that miracles were gone from the earth, something MEgus implied and many Smithians claim (and in order to back up the need for a “restoration,” reference Protestants who have made similar claims). It was also to demonstrate that by any standard used to evaluate miracles and the effects of the Sacraments, the Catholic Church compares favorably to any other. Thus it won’t work very well to claim that evidence that these gifts and occurrences happen within the LDS context are a proof that you have authority and others do not.

I don’t believe I said that. If you can show me where I did, I would apologize. Miracles prove nothing either way, partially because signs prove nothing. Satan can probably do “miracles”

 

[mfbukowski]

I was responding to MEgus. I had questioned his premise of the Christian church starting with Adam by asking him if Jesus’s life mattered, did or changed anything. He dodged with an attempt to say that the purpose of our lives hasn’t changed, implying that “so why should the church?” My argument (to which you replied) was that his evasive question was irrelevant. I also answered that question in Catholic terms (a question–the purpose of life–that you have proposed before and claimed the Catholic Church had no answer for, btw ).

Saw that answer and our standard answer is two quotes - no time to look up- but that we are here to “fill the measure of our creation and have joy therein”
Another relevant quote is that God’s purpose is to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”. We will have to get into that one sometime

 

[alanjeddy]

Eternal progression has nothing to do with reincarnation

We believe in kingdoms of glory

We believe in John 17 that says we will share in the Glory of the Father in the way the Savior does

We do not believe that we will have “dominion over a world”

We do not believe that Jesus “only had dominion over our planet Earth”

We do believe in one God in three divine persons

We do not believe that “Utah was the last state to gain statehood”. Our belief is that that was Hawaii, and their statehood had nothing to do with polygamy.

Other than that, You’re right on the money!

Eternal progression is all about the soul gaining enlightenment in a heavenly non corporal plain. Reincarnation is the soul gaining enlightenment through repeated in carnations. Mormons do it in heaven and reincarnation happens on earth through repeated incarnations of the soul. How do you fail to see the similarities???

Check your Theology, mormons believe that Jesus is not on the same spiritual level as God, the Heavenly Father. Mormons believe that Jesus came for our redemption but that His dominion was only over this earth. I have discussed this many times with my brother -in-law who is an elder in your church. Mormons believe they will be like Gods through Eternal progression.
One of the 10 Commandements says Thou shalt not have strange Gods before me.

I think you need a deeper understanding of your faith. It is polytheistic, and far removed from protestant and Catholic Christian orthodoxy!

 

[mfbukowski]

By this standard, is there anyone who was raised Buddhist or Muslim or Zoroastrian, etc. who would ever become Christian? .

How does this square with THIS:

Just as the old adage goes that you don’t tear down a fence until you understand why it’s there, you shouldn’t act on your own opinion before coming to understand that which does not at first make sense to you.

Could it be that those Zoroastrians are just trying to understand why those “fences are there?” “Making sense” of what they have?

How long does one keep rationalizing before one gives up?

 

[mfbukowski]

That is what I think of the statement. My friend, I will tell you something. Any religion that claims if you do all the right things, get enough spirits on your side and learn the secret rituals and maybe even the secret handshake, that you can then become a God and have your own planet, is really out there. And I mean really out there.

Wow I agree!
And what church would THAT be?

 

[mfbukowski]

Eternal progression is all about the soul gaining enlightenment in a heavenly non corporal plain.

No, it’s not at all.

Reincarnation is the soul gaining enlightenment through repeated in carnations. Mormons do it in heaven and reincarnation happens on earth through repeated incarnations of the soul. How do you fail to see the similarities???

Not even close.
I am not at all sure what you mean here at all. You know honestly, this thread is very fast moving. I suggest that you go to some LDS sites like Mormon,org or LDS,org and study up what we actually believe. Honestly, it would take hours and hours and hours to give you the basics-- and I just don’t have the time.

Check your Theology, mormons believe that Jesus is not on the same spiritual level as God, the Heavenly Father.

Call For Reference

Mormons believe that Jesus came for our redemption but that His dominion was only over this earth.

CFR

I think you need a deeper understanding of your faith. It is polytheistic, and far removed from protestant and Catholic Christian orthodoxy!

Respectfully, I disagree. It may well be removed from creedal theology, but I do know my beliefs. I will probably not have time to respond to you any more. I have answered most of these questions even here on this thread. I suggest you go back and read it from the beginning, or perhaps another Mormon will respond

 

[mfbukowski]

Just fyi for all my fans out there in webland

I am going to radically cut back my time here on CAF.

So if you don’t see me much, that is the reason. You know me better than to give up on an argument, but I really would like to do more dialogue at a slower pace like maybe a couple of posts a week, so I have decided to spend more time on my own blog(s)

Life is too short to spend it arguing!