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MEgus
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How about if we do what I just suggested Bill do. Start another thread and ask just that question.
MEgus
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MEgus
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PaulDupre
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But those are all real LDS doctrines. They may not emphasize them anymore (in their recent attempt to appear Christian) but the leadership has always believed and taught these things.Perhaps LDS “lay” ministry is the reason that instead of worship and sound teaching, you’ll hear things in their meetings like: ‘God the Father had sexual intercourse with Mary to conceive our Lord Jesus’, (oh yes, indeed I did!) or about how ‘God is an Exalted man’, to speculation about how righteous we were (or not) in the so-called “pre-existence” and other such nonsense. Did you know according to the LDS, our Lord Jesus’ ‘spirit’ was born of a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother just like the rest of us?
For more examples of such sound teachings; this one is on “our Heavenly Mother”:
lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/heavenly_mother.html
I don’t believe there are too many LDS who haven’t suffered through similar nonsense on Sunday’s. Except maybe Diana.
And these are the things which grieved my spirit when I was LDS.
Paul (a former Mormon)
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RebeccaJ
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The answers to these questions help determine the answer to the original question. A true Church is based on truth.
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MEgus
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Who did he kill???Only in Mormonism and Islam is a martyr someone who dies while killing other people.
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MEgus
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Maybe you should take your own advice. Again, another of those absolutely false statements. Do you think that bearing false witness will have any consequences when the time comes for you to stand before God to be judged?
MEgus
“Judge not for as you judge so will you be judged”.
So, why do you keep judging?
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mfbukowski
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Alan, I appreciate your concern. But honestly, I have been a member thirty years. It takes less than a year to become an “elder”. Our leaders use the term in humility because it is the same title our baby 19 year old missionaries have.
I have had many leadership positions, and have been an ordinance worker in the temple. That means I have extensively studied the temple and in fact memorized nearly all the temple ordinances. I have been a high priests group leader which means I taught and led the high priests, and that is not the most responsible leadership calling I have had, though no calling is “higher” than any other.
Trust me, I know the doctrine inside and out. And what I am telling you is that your posts show a distorted view of our doctrine. Many of the words you use are like cartoon representations of the doctrine.
I appreciate your concern honestly, but others here will explain to you what the doctrine really is
It is not that I am afraid of your abilities as an apologist. Most here will tell you I have been around the block a bit.
I wish you well.
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mfbukowski
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Perhaps this question could be a good starting place for another thread. Perhaps not here.But how are you sure that it is God telling you, and how can you be sure that you’re interpreting Him correctly? The mass proliferation of sects and contradictory teachings has occurred because so many people believed that God was telling them something.
I have gotten into this matter with Mormons many times. Most seem to believe that they can trust their own interpretation of spiritual experiences. They typically have a lot of trouble understanding that televangelists play off the same notions, and that every belief system that every man founded and led people astray with began with similar notions. It is a false formula to rely on one’s own interpretations of what one thinks God is saying to them, for it only creates confusion; it is essentially self-justification and belief in one’s own prideful foolishness.
Fortunately, God is much wiser than us and gave us many means by which to test our interpretations so that we could conform our will to His. The primary ones are the Church (Apostolic Authority, Tradition, Scripture); natural law (Creation), and history (of which God is the Author). This is why Jesus instituted the Catholic Church and solidly grounded it in all of these primary, external means of God’s Revelation to man. With these tools, we can know for certain whether our personal interpretation of how the Spirit speaks to us is correct. It requires our humility to accept that we may be wrong so that we may grow in insight and receptivity to the Spirit’s true meaning.
It wasn’t you who pointed to miracles in the LDS church or said that such gifts had ceased prior to the restoration. It was MEgus, and in my experience, many other Smithians.
(BTW, in case I haven’t said before, I use the term “Smithians” inclusively so that I can refer to those things that are common to the LDS, the CoC, Restoration, and Remnant branches that follow one version or another of Joseph Smith’s works. The only part of it that is indeed a little jabis that I think it is more accurate to refer to these groups as following the belief system outlined by a specific man, since the earthly origin can be linked to him)
As for Satan performing “miracles,” I very much agree. He’s a great trickster. I have heard Smithians say that JS could not have been tricked by Satan because Satan would not have lead him to Christ. The problem with that is that Smith calls the other Christian churches the “Great and Abominable Church of Satan,” and they lead people to Christ. So obviously Satan very much enjoys spreading any lies that hurt our communion with God or cause contention among His children, even if we are all still striving to follow Him.
While Satan can perform “miracles” of sorts, I do not think he is responsible for all the “miracles” seen outside of one religion or another. I still think the Spirit works many miracles across humanity. I do think that the Spirit works most powerfully within the Catholic Church, though, particularly through the Sacraments.
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MEgus
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Ok, maybe, if I can keep from all the distractions of having to answer things that are not even close to our beliefs I can get to the Church that was given to Adam.
Let’s look at things.
Unfortunately, we do not have the writings of Adam or Seth or Enos or any of the other people down to Noah. If we did, we would have a greater understanding of what the people believed. I would love to have the writings of Enoch or even Noah, but we don’t.
Now, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we do have some writings of Abraham, but since I know you would not believe them, I will not quote them. But we do have the writings of Moses. And they give us some perspective of the Gospel and what was taking place.
One of those things we learn is that even before Abraham was called of God, there was a great priest in the land called Melchizedek.
Gen. 14:18
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Now, Melchizedek was not of the house of Israel, yet he was the priest of God that Abraham paid tithes too. Did he belong to the Church of God? Yes or No?
And was this not the same Church that Christ restored?
If you don’t believe me, maybe you should spend a little time studying Hebrews chapter 5 and 7. Here we learn of the greater priesthood. We also learn that Christ received this same priest hood. The same one he gave to Peter.
Heb.6:20
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Now again, we go back to the topic of this thread. What does it mean to be the Lord’s “True Church”? It means that the Church has the Priesthood of God. These are the keys given to Peter.
The same keys given to Melchisedec. many years before Christ came in the flesh.
Now please, go study Hebrews 5 and 7 before you respond.
MEgus
Let’s look at things.
Unfortunately, we do not have the writings of Adam or Seth or Enos or any of the other people down to Noah. If we did, we would have a greater understanding of what the people believed. I would love to have the writings of Enoch or even Noah, but we don’t.
Now, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we do have some writings of Abraham, but since I know you would not believe them, I will not quote them. But we do have the writings of Moses. And they give us some perspective of the Gospel and what was taking place.
One of those things we learn is that even before Abraham was called of God, there was a great priest in the land called Melchizedek.
Gen. 14:18
And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Now, Melchizedek was not of the house of Israel, yet he was the priest of God that Abraham paid tithes too. Did he belong to the Church of God? Yes or No?
And was this not the same Church that Christ restored?
If you don’t believe me, maybe you should spend a little time studying Hebrews chapter 5 and 7. Here we learn of the greater priesthood. We also learn that Christ received this same priest hood. The same one he gave to Peter.
Heb.6:20
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Now again, we go back to the topic of this thread. What does it mean to be the Lord’s “True Church”? It means that the Church has the Priesthood of God. These are the keys given to Peter.
The same keys given to Melchisedec. many years before Christ came in the flesh.
Now please, go study Hebrews 5 and 7 before you respond.
MEgus
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mfbukowski
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This is a pretty good source. The standard works are better. This is written at a very basic level and is meant for newbies in the church. It is the text for the first sunday school class we teach. So those that say we don’t tell all at first are lying.
So when are you going to stop worshipping Mary?
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mfbukowski
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Yeah, and I know you are going to deny that you worship Mary though I know otherwise
When did you stop beating your wife, Alan?
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MEgus
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Rebecca,
There are many many churches that are based on Gospel truths. That does not make them the “true Church”. I think that is some of the things that seems to get lost here.
To be the Lord’s “true Church” is to have the priesthood authority from God. If you have no authority from God, it does not matter how much truth you teach.
Now again, if you want to discuss other points of doctrine and whether they are supported by the Bible, I’m happy to do that on other threads. But for this one, it boils down to who has authority from God.
MEgus
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RebeccaJ
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Jesus said his Church would be “the light of the world.” He then noted that “a city set on a hill cannot be hid” (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, “I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
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If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. **The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. **
**The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822) **Jesus established only *one* Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but *one *spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).
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But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20).
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**The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865) **
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).
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Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).
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Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of the Church. He gave them his own authority to teach and to govern—not as dictators, but as loving pastors and fathers. That is why Catholics call their spiritual leaders "father." In doing so we follow Paul’s example: "I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).
The apostles, fulfilling Jesus’ will, ordained bishops, priests, and deacons and thus handed on their apostolic ministry to them—the fullest degree of ordination to the bishops, lesser degrees to the priests and deacons.
Christ, the Good Shepherd, called Peter to be the chief shepherd of his Church (John 21:15–17). He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other apostles in their faith, ensuring that they taught only what was true (Luke 22:31–32). Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making decisions (Acts 2:1– 41, 15:7–12).
Early Christian writings tell us that Peter’s successors, the bishops of Rome (who from the earliest times have been called by the affectionate title of "pope," which means "papa"), continued to exercise Peter’s ministry in the Church.
The pope is the successor to Peter as bishop of Rome. The world’s other bishops are successors to the apostles in general.
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alanjeddy
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alanjeddy
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MEgus, There is only one true apostolic church that traces its roots to Christ Read the above carefully.
And listen to Rebecca and others on this thread who were former mormons, now Catholic and many were in mormon seminaries, they are echoing what I am saying.
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wilsonpd
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Thank you for your reply. I am truly just searching for information. I am in no way going to bash you for your beliefs. If the missionaries can’t “touch” my questions then who should I ask? I always thought that the best way to get information was to go to the source and they are the only source I can go to with questions. I am reading the BOM and D&C and History of the Church but it is SO much more helpful to be able to ask a question and have it answered by a person. If what I said is not what you believe can you please clear it up for me? Are you saying that you will design your own universe when you are a god and then you and your wives will populate that universe with spirit babies? And for the “not mormons” can you please give reference for where you found this information. Is it stated in D&C (I know it is not in BOM) that mormons will attained godhood and produce spirit babies for eternity?
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Bill_Pick
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Joseph SMITH WAS NOTHING MORE THEN A CON MAN
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Bill_Pick
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DOES YOUR CHURCH REALLY THINK THAT THE CON MAN SMITH WAS A MATYR,WE NEED TO START A NEW THREAD ON THIS
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truthsilence
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Oh yeah. :doh2: They are, huh?
The only place they don’t emphasize them is when they’re talking with people who know better.
Aladjeddy, I’m quite sure your mormon friends said what you heard them say. And, (I’m really going out on a limb here) they probably even believe what they told you.
In other words, I doubt they were just joshing you. So hang in there. We know you’re not the one making this stuff up.Any way you look at it, the LDS church is teaching doctrine that is completely foreign to Christianity. Whether their members want to admit it here or not.
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truthsilence
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MEgus,
The Catholic church has the priesthood authority. And she teaches the truth, consistently. How wonderful is that?
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Bill_Pick
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amenOh yeah. :doh2: They are, huh?
The only place they don’t emphasize them is when they’re talking with people who know better.
Aladjeddy, I’m quite sure your mormon friends said what you heard them say. And, (I’m really going out on a limb here) they probably even believe what they told you.
Any way you look at it, the LDS church is teaching doctrine that is completely foreign to Christianity. Whether their members want to admit it here or not.
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